Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Watch the geonosis battle again. Look at the fighting in the background, and you'll see each jedi taking on multiple battle droids, super battle droids and even droidexas at once. It's only due to sheer numbers, as Dooku said "you're impossibly outnumbered", that the jedi were driven back.
"Outnumbered but never outgunned". And here I thought the Jedi can redirect, reflect, deflect, destroy everything with telekinesis, anticipate enemy moves, are all "powerful", and all that other nifty jazz. Against the most efficient fighting force the galaxy has ever known, to boot. But not when they are facing a scrap piles of droids?
No, the Battle of Geonosis had a ratio of droids to Jedi at 50:1, which is similar to the numbers you've pulled from your ass. We had the 200 of the "Prime of the Jedi", that is to say, the most powerful Jedi Order in history against the vastly-inferior-to-clones, droids of the CIS. The Jedi were slaughtered.
What you're forgetting is that in any given situation, the Jedi will always be "impossibly outnumbered". A handful of Jedi, that are a mix of few masters, some knights and padawans against 10,000 clones, genetically the same on every level, meaning each one is as powerful as the next.
So first you say that one jedi isn't always > ONE clone, but now you say that "small numberS" (capitilization intentional) of clones beat jedi?
I beg your pardon?
Originally posted by Advent
Jedi Council members were slain during Order 66 from relatively small groups of troopers (Ki-Adi-Mundi for example tried to fight back)
Since when is "Joe Six-pack" Jedi a candidate or member for the Jedi Council? Stop taking what I say out of context, it doesn't do any good to your argument or reputation.
The jedi were surprised and caught off guard.
zOMG, but they can "anticipate the clones' movements"!
And sure, the average knight isn't anywhere near, say, Yoda, but they still are above clones.
Originally posted by Advent
"Most Jedi are above the average clone" - Your say-so doesn't constitute proof. Who are "most Jedi", and do these include the some 200 we saw fall like snowflakes on Geonosis by ranged weaponry?"Most Jedi are still powerful" - Just because you say it, doesn't make it true. Most Jedi are powerful in comparison to whom, exactly? We've seen Jedi headbutted at close range by people like Jango Fett, who happened to be the genetic template and training overseer of the clones.
Your assertion assumes that the majority of Jedi are "powerful" in a combat sense. This holds far from true, and if it is true, then prove up.
Put up or shut up.
In the Knightfall clips, we see several clones taking on one jedi, and several clone bodies laying dead, implying that he took down several even when surounded.
How is this relevant whatsoever? Do we know anything about that "one Jedi"? By the way you describe the scene, we don't even see what happened to those clones. You're making a baseless assumption based upon another baseless assumption here. Try proving up.
And Mundi was caught off guard by a large group of GALACTIC MARINES, who are among the most feared clones in the CWs, and was shot at point blank range. And he still killed about 7 of them.
ROFL! Stop making things up. Ki-Adi-Mundi manages to take down two when he's at point-blank range from them. Where was his almighty power then? He had time to grasp the situation, and having two brains would probably help his thinking. So, he wasn't exactly "surprised" at what was coming as he was "surprised" that the clones would do something like that.
Galactic Marines? WTF? These are any different than an elite legion of clone troopers, that happens to be the 501st, Vader's personal brigade? The 501st was chosen to the unit to charge the Jedi Temple. They were arguably more feared than anyone.
And the OR simply does that to balance gameplay, so that there's actually a reason for playing as anyone other than a jedi. Otherwise, almost everybody would be a jedi and it wouldn't be balanced.
That doesn't disprove the fact: average Jedi are not powerful combatants. We've seen this demonstrated before the Clone Wars, during the Clone Wars, and after the Clone Wars. Jedi have been slaughtered by ranged technology all throughout the mythology. It is absolutely absurd to suggest "all Jedi are still powerful" when that's clearly not the case. You've shown nothing that supports that idea whatsoever, and I doubt you ever will since it's false.
On the contrary, we have seen Jedi getting beat by clones before. Shortly after Order 66, a group of four Jedi were owned effortlessly by clone troopers in Purge. They are about to kill Darth Vader when we see the clones come in and use their weapons to decimate them, even though they tried to defend against it.
In Jango Fett: Open Season, we see Jango Fett single-handedly breaking a Jedi's guard at close range and headbutting them when he doesn't even have a melee weapon. Clone troopers are the best of the best. You call them "above average soldiers", when it would be more accurate to describe them as "the best military fighting force the galaxy has ever known".
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
How is their technology superior to a degree of which it cancels the Jedi's Force abilities? Sure, they may be slightly superior in tech, but not enough to make up for the lack of Force abilities.
Just what are you talking about? When did I say a word about the technology "canceling out" the Jedi's Force sensitivity? I'm growing tired of being misconstrued; it's getting old. Please, pay attention to what I'm writing.
I wrote that the Jedi have the advantage of technology, and they do. And that is a big advantage to have. Their tech is far superior than the Jedi's. Their armor is designed to be heat-resistant, and provides protection in any environment. Their helmets are also stocked with visual image equipment, allowing them to see through any environmental hamper. Even their communications are advanced over the Jedi's "com-links" considering they can give and receive orders and relay information through the Heads-Up-Display. They can be completely silent in communications, the Jedi cannot.
Proof?
According to the FightSaber article in SW Insider 62, Jedi are not traditionally trained for the reflection of blaster bolts, this requires a specialization, such as with Form V/Djem So. My point stands: the majority do not have access to a ranged offensive or a direct counter to one.
I said that they (the clones) wouldn't use guerilla tactics, not that they wouldn't use counter guerilla tactics. Of course they'd use counter guerilla tactics when they're facing a guerilla force!
I see, but the assumption that they wouldn't use guerrilla warfare is farfetched. They can compose a larger force of insurgency that is better trained and equipped to launch a counter-assault. This goes along with what I was saying about capturing Jedi as prisoners of war. Gaining intelligence on where the Jedi were hiding or what their plans for future attacks are would allow for similar "hit-and-run" tactics. Especially if they wanted to take out certain targets within the Order, who can be considered leaders or are far more dangerous than most.
But the fact they they're genetically modified to be identical is not as big of a difference as being able to move stuff with your mind. It's like saying "sure X has an advantage over Y because X has the ability to alter space-time, but Y cancels that out by having a blue shirt when X thought that he'd be wearing a red one!" Sure, that example's exaggerated, but the point is that being genetically modified in this case DID make the clones superior to average soldiers, but not to the same degree that the Jedi would be seperior to average guerilla troops.
Strawman argument, logical fallacy.
Either learn to read or don't respond at all. No one said a damn thing about the clones being "genetically identical" alone "cancels out the Force advantage". The point was: while the clones are all equally powerful, the Jedi are not all equally powerful or even close to equally powerful. The disparities of power within the New Jedi Order are vast.
Can you prove how "moving stuff with the mind" - telekinesis - beats the 501st? So far, you've said much and proved nothing. TK takes practice and power to be effective, and even then, we've seen Jedi completely owned by ranged weaponry in the hands of things and people that were leagues below the 501st and clone troopers in general.