Originally posted by Kris BlazeLucifer and Mazikeen exist in the DCU, Kris, they appeared in Sandman, and Lucifer also appeared in Spectre's ongoing, not limited, volume 3, during Spectre's search for God near the end of the series. Just as all the Endless have appeared from Sandman. Just as the guys who trapped Morpheus were referenced in Green Arrow's first arc or so in the last Green Arrow ongoing.
One of his appearances outside Lucifer. Also, he appeared in Etrigan's comic and in the Spectre limited series.
However, the Lucifer title itself wasn't written until long after DC and Vertigo became separate, and no other title Vertigo like Constantine or otherwise that I recall, has acknowledged any of the events in it that did not previously happen in Sandman, especially not a DC proper title. Reading the final arc of Lucifer should give you the idea that it's not canon, when Elaine combined her universe, lucifer's universe, and Yahweh's universe into one, and abolished the idea of hell. These events never happened anywhere but inside of Lucifer's self contained story.
Originally posted by Juntai
Lucifer and Mazikeen exist in the DCU, Kris, they appeared in Sandman, and Lucifer also appeared in Spectre's ongoing, not limited, volume 3, during Spectre's search for God near the end of the series. Just as all the Endless have appeared from Sandman.However, the Lucifer title itself wasn't written until long after DC and Vertigo became separate, and no other title Vertigo like Constantine or otherwise that I recall, has acknowledged any of the events in it that did not previously happen in Sandman, especially not a DC proper title. Reading the final arc of Lucifer should give you the idea that it's not canon, when Elaine combined her universe, lucifer's universe, and Yahweh's universe into one, and abolished the idea of hell. These events never happened anywhere but inside of Lucifer's self contained story.
That may be true, but Lucifer is still apart of the DCU. Kinda. 😉
Originally posted by Juntai
Lucifer and Mazikeen exist in the DCU, Kris, they appeared in Sandman, and Lucifer also appeared in Spectre's ongoing, not limited, volume 3, during Spectre's search for God near the end of the series. Just as all the Endless have appeared from Sandman. Just as the guys who trapped Morpheus were referenced in Green Arrow's first arc or so in the last Green Arrow ongoing.However, the Lucifer title itself wasn't written until long after DC and Vertigo became separate, and no other title Vertigo like Constantine or otherwise that I recall, has acknowledged any of the events in it that did not previously happen in Sandman, especially not a DC proper title. Reading the final arc of Lucifer should give you the idea that it's not canon, when Elaine combined her universe, lucifer's universe, and Yahweh's universe into one, and abolished the idea of hell. These events never happened anywhere but inside of Lucifer's self contained story.
Which is not logically possible when Lucifer is a character in the DC universe 😐
Originally posted by Kris BlazeKris. The Luficer solo series is not canon to the DCU. lol. I've already pointed out why in story context, and given links to both editors saying they aren't the same universe.
The mentions of Vertigo no longer being canon was posted -after- Lucifer series was completed.
If you still want to believe it is, go for it.
However, you can even go back and look as early as Didio was named editor, and see him saying the same things. In one that pops up even looking for like 30 seconds for "Didio Vertigo" on the google list is an interview from 2005, someone asking of Infinite Crisis will affect Vertigo, or if Vertigo characters will be in it[like swamp thing, constantine, etc]. And he simply reiterated that it's its own imprint and not part of the DCU and they will not cross over.
Vertigo borrows characters from DC's mythology and writes stories about them. These stories are not canonical to the DC versions of the characters. Not the JSA Sandman, Not Madame Xanadu, and not Luficer. Vertigo isn't a 'universe', perse, it's just a collection of awesome stories.
Originally posted by Juntai
Kris. The Luficer solo series is not canon to the DCU. lol. I've already pointed out why in story context, and given links to both editors saying they aren't the same universe.If you still want to believe it is, go for it.
However, you can even go back and look as early as Didio was named editor, and see him saying the same things. In one that pops up even looking for like 30 seconds for "Didio Vertigo" on the google list is an interview from 2005, someone asking of Infinite Crisis will affect Vertigo, or if Vertigo characters will be in it[like swamp thing, constantine, etc]. And he simply reiterated that it's its own imprint and not part of the DCU and they will not cross over.
Links are dead.
Editors made the comment after the series had been released.
This wasn't some sudden change of heart regarding Vertigo.
http://www.zonanegativa.com/?p=2894
May 2006. [but speaking of Infinite Crisis 2005.]
Why don’t characters like Hellblazer, Swamp Thing, Tim Hunter and others participate in IC? Do they live within DCU although they are published by Vertigo? “American Gothic” was the best first Crisis’ “spin-off”. Will IC have consequences for Constantine and the rest of Vertigo characters that are DCU origin?
DD.- Simply put, once those characters moved completely to Vertigo, and were printed under a mature label, we could not, as responsible publishers, cross them over into unlabeled series.
Or here. Didio explains it clearly. However, this one is more recent. Same result as all of the others though.
http://www.newsarama.com/comics/110812-Didio2.html
18: Something that touches upon expanding the universe with bringing in the Milestone characters and the Red Circle characters – it’s a question that comes up at every panel you do – DC has the Vertigo characters...
DD: Who does? I don’t have the Vertigo characters. The DCU does not have the Vertigo characters. Those are under the auspices of Vertigo under Karen Berger, and they have a set plan for those characters that works independently from what we do here – and that’s that. I’ve answered this question so many times...the reality is, as aggressively as we may tell stories with our characters, we will never be Vertigo Comics. We can never use the language that they use in Vertigo, or address the subject matter that they address, therefore, we try to make a very clear delineation between what is DCU and what is Vertigo. Once characters are up front and prominent there, they cannot be anywhere near the DCU.
NRAMA: Animal Man?
DD: Animal Man came back to the DC Universe because Grant Morrison wanted to write him. Once Grant stopped writing him, we wrapped our arms around him and wouldn’t let him go back. The same with Doom Patrol. That’s just the way the system works. Characters like Swamp Thing are essential to the identity of Vertigo right now – that’s one of the things that Vertigo was built on. I know how important they are for Karen and the Vertigo line, and therefore these trains shall never meet.
NRAMA: I hear what you’re saying, but looking at it from more of a fan perspective, there always seem to parts to that explanation that ring hollow – Swamp Thing isn’t appearing anywhere in Vertigo, and the best selling title has nothing to do with Swamp Thing, Constantine or any of the magic that Neil Gaiman wrote about...not to mention Alan Moore had no problem mixing Swamp Thing with Superman, or sending him into Gotham to get Abbey back – those are classic stories in the DC library. It just seems weird that DC has cut themselves off from using those characters and seems okay with letting some of them languish, but on the other hand, you’re importing whole new universes of characters into the Universe.
DD: Swamp Thing and Superman and Gotham were stories prior to creation of Vertigo. There was no Vertigo when those stories were written, so therefore, they fell under what the DC Universe was at the time, but once Vertigo became its own imprint, its own brand, it became separate from the DC Universe, and therefore we handle it as a separate entity, and we deal with characters individually.
I don’t know how else to say it. Asking me about those characters is like saying, “DC did Amalgam with Marvel – why don’t you use those characters again?” That’s about the same way that I can view the Vertigo characters. If we use something, there is a discussion that has to happen before it. There’s not a free-flowing line that we can move back and forth over.
Originally posted by Kris Blaze
One crazy norwegian's interpretation: The "attacks" used to defeat Mandrakk in the end of FC 7 doesn't really matter match. He was not defeated by the Green Lanterns' creating a giant stake. That would put him around any herald guy's level.Superman's story was better. The concept of Superman was superior. This was almost revealed to be Mandrakk's weakness by the female monitor. A boy born on Krypton, sent to earth. A better story, backed by the comic book readers' desire for good to prevail. Superman may have punched him, but Mandrakk cannot be harmed by punches. Superman was combataning a story.
The concept/existence of Kal-el in comics prevailed. The Ultimator can not.
So, going by this, any character from any classical work of fiction could solo the DC universe by virtue of being from a better story?