I see, back to "Just cuz?", right? Figured so.
Counter this:
Originally posted by Rogue JediAgainst fiendfyre, force push/pull is out. The death eaters are too far away to attack with force lightning. That pretty much exhausts the option the Jedi have. See, this is where the diversity of a wizards power comes into play, it can do far more than the force can. The wizards aren't stupid, they aren't going to go toe to toe with the Jedi. They are gonna attack from afar with shit so powerful that the Jedi will never know what hit them.
You're kidding, right? First of all, force users are only shown force pushing/pulling solid objects (Droids, blasters, lightsabers, people), they are never shown force pushing/pulling away anything like water or fire. If a wall of fiendfyre is coming at a Jedi and the Jedi force pushes towards it, sure, it might cause a ripple or two, but the fiendfyre is gonna keep coming at them.But let's say it works, that they can force push fiendfyre.. *LOLing*.....The Jedi force pushes the fiendfyre, it stops. It will simply climb higher (Like Voldemorts fiendfyre in OOTP, it was easily 50 feet tall), over the range of the force push, and attack from above, or around the side of it. A force push is not all encompassing, force users cannot make it spread out all around them, it is an aimed attack, they are vulnerable from all other directions.
And as I have shown in the vid, the fiendfyre will be in the form of MANY "comets", coming at the Jedi from all directions. They are gonna have their hands full "force pushing"...*ROTFLMAOing*.....the fiendfyre away, wide open for attacks from other wizards at ground level. The Jedi are screwed no matter how you slice it.
No let's talk apparating and half apparating. The Death Eaters are shown collapsing into thick clouds of black smoke and half apparating around London in THBP, the OOTP is shown doing the same at the ministry in OOTP, and Bellatrix and Fenrir are shown attacking the Burrow from hundreds of feet high, castinf fiendfyre as they go. Now, it's pretty obvious that a wizard, while half apparating, is not a solid mass. For all we know spells go right through them. In OOTP, when Tonks was chasing Bellatrix, both of them half apparating, why didn't they cast spells on one another? It's certainly not because they cannot cast spells while half apparating, the burrow vid proves that they can. The only thing we can assume is that the spell will have little to no effect on them. Smashing through the walls of a house, taking no damage, looks pretty uber to me.
Also, at the beginning of THBP, the death eaters are shown smashing through a thick brick wall that seperates the muggle world from Diagon's alley. How did they do this? One might argue brute force, but it's obvious they used a spell similar to the one Ginny Weasley used on the training dummy in OOTP, an obliterating spell/charm of some sort.
.
Go ahead, make some shit up, ignore the fact that the Jedi are outclassed here. I'll wait.
Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Force speed is limited. They cannot force jump hundreds of feet into the air. Force heal is EU.
Prove that force speed is limited and to what extent. In PM Obi Wan and Qui Gon managed to get hundreds of feet down a corridor in a fraction of a second.
Obi wan was shown as a Padawan in the fight with Qui Gon agaist Darth Maul to force jump at least 50ft straight up. In ROTS Anakin jumped a huge distance off the platform as it fell over the lava fall.
Besides, I fail to see how the Wizards would be hundreds of feet in the air when the battle is taking place inside the Jedi temple anyway.
I also don't see why your argument that the Jedi can't project their force powers over any kind of distance is coming from. Sidious was able to project his dark side shroud across the entire galaxy. Luke, as an almost completely untrained Jedi was able to use force telepathy across huge distances.
Your argument that the force would have no effect of fiendfyre is just completely pointless. I could simply counter it with something just as baseless as "fiendfyre and none of the other wizards spells will work in the Jedi temple...just...because I said so"...There's no basis for that argument either.
Originally posted by jaden101
Prove that force speed is limited and to what extent. In PM Obi Wan and Qui Gon managed to get hundreds of feet down a corridor in a fraction of a second.Obi wan was shown as a Padawan in the fight with Qui Gon agaist Darth Maul to force jump at least 50ft straight up. In ROTS Anakin jumped a huge distance off the platform as it fell over the lava fall.
Besides, I fail to see how the Wizards would be hundreds of feet in the air when the battle is taking place inside the Jedi temple anyway.
I also don't see why your argument that the Jedi can't project their force powers over any kind of distance is coming from. Sidious was able to project his dark side shroud across the entire galaxy. Luke, as an almost completely untrained Jedi was able to use force telepathy across huge distances.
Your argument that the force would have no effect of fiendfyre is just completely pointless. I could simply counter it with something just as baseless as "fiendfyre and none of the other wizards spells will work in the Jedi temple...just...because I said so"...There's no basis for that argument either.
Obi Wan and Qui Gon used force speed to escape the face off with the droidekas, then the droidekas lumbered down the hall (A good twenty feet mind you), turned to the right to engage, and only then are we shown Qui Gon and Obi Wan again (BTW, if I were to sprint I could cover close to that distance). No way to know if they used force speed all the time. Again I ask, why didn't the Jedi use it more in the movies? because it's limited.
K, I know they jumped that high. So they force jump into the air, and are spelled while they are airborne. How? Dumbledore casts "Arresto Momentum" on them, they move as if in a jar of molasses. Once a Jedi makes the jump, they cannot change their trajectory. They'd be safer on the ground.
The battle takes where I say when I say, my thread. But OK, so the Jedi are inside. Voldemort casts fiendfyre while hundreds of feet away and consumes the temple. The Jedi either die inside, or are forced outside and the battle commences as I had it to begin with.
In ROTS, they Jedi never were shown attacking via the force beyond twenty or thirty feet. No EU bullshit, please. Never, not ever, is a Jedi shown attacking with force powers from two hundred feet away. And the wizards can fly much higher than that, casting fiendfyre and spells the entire time.
Fiendfyre is not solid, the Jedi are shown force pulling/pushing ONLY solid objects like droids and blasters. Fire has no weight and no mass. The most a force push would do is cause a small ripple in the fire. Or it simply goes around the force push, or over it. Force push is an aimed attack, at no time is a Jedi shown using force push in ALL directions, they concentrate, extend their hand, then it happens. The fiendfyre will be all around them, they have no chance here.
Think on it like this:
You got two trucks, A and B, both going 60 mph. Truck A heads towards an empty dumpster. Truck B heads towards a wall of fire. When truck A hits the dumpster, it goes flying, and the truck continues it's momentum.. Truck B hits the wall of fire, going out the other side. The flames are still there, it had no effect on them. See? What I am saying is that the Jedi are only shown using force push/pull on items that have mass, solid items (droids, people, blasters, lightsabers), and fire does not fall under this category. They don't have TK on Sue Storm's level, you know.
And as for what DDM said about the Jedi turning the fiendfyre back on the wizards, dont make me laugh, I just covered why they cannot do this. They aren't Pyro from the X Men, you know. Someone like Pyro? Yeah, the moment a Death eater comes at him with Fiendfyre, they've signed their own death warrant.
So.....Force speed, limited, or countered with Arresto Momentum.
Force leap, dumb move for a Jedi here, again, same spell, or simply death spell.
Force push against Fiendfyre? Useless.
Force push/pull against the wizards? They'll be too far away. And IF one happens to get caught in a force push/pull, they simply apparate away and attack from a new vantage point.
BTW not all spells require an incantation. In THBP, Draco and Harry are casting spells/jinxes left and right with no words.
I've covered everything the Jedi have to offer here, and it aint near enough.
Obi Wan and Qui Gon used force speed to escape the face off with the droidekas, then the droidekas lumbered down the hall (A good twenty feet mind you), turned to the right to engage, and only then are we shown Qui Gon and Obi Wan again (BTW, if I were to sprint I could cover close to that distance). No way to know if they used force speed all the time. Again I ask, why didn't the Jedi use it more in the movies? because it's limited.
So the Jedi can only use force speed to the extent they did in the movies but the wizards can use every spell over and over again despite not doing so in the movies?
That's a bit....skewed.
The battle takes where I say when I say, my thread.
What are you five years old?
You already stated in the opening post that the entire premise is a wizard attack on the Jedi temple.
Or do you just think the jedi are idiots? Do you not think they wont say..."right...these wizards can effectively fly up in the air...so lets go inside where that ability will be neutralised?"
The Jedi are some of the greatest military strategists their respective galaxy has ever know. Hence even Padawans are given the status of Commander in the clone armies.
In ROTS, they Jedi never were shown attacking via the force beyond twenty or thirty feet. No EU bullshit, please. Never, not ever, is a Jedi shown attacking with force powers from two hundred feet away. And the wizards can fly much higher than that, casting fiendfyre and spells the entire time.
You never mentioned anything about it being only feats from ROTS. You said only Jedi seen or mentioned in that film...Does that mean that even though the same characters are in the other 2 prequel trilogy films, the feats from those films aren't allowed because they weren't in revenge of the sith?...Again, a blatently obvious attempt at being childish and gimping.
Fiendfyre is not solid, the Jedi are shown force pulling/pushing ONLY solid objects like droids and blasters. Fire has no weight and no mass. The most a force push would do is cause a small ripple in the fire. Or it simply goes around the force push, or over it. Force push is an aimed attack, at no time is a Jedi shown using force push in ALL directions, they concentrate, extend their hand, then it happens. The fiendfyre will be all around them, they have no chance here.
You have absolutely no basis for that opinion whatsoever. I can just as easily say that the force has more of an effect on fire than it does on solid objects. You're just making it up to fit your argument. I can do that too.
You got two trucks, A and B, both going 60 mph. Truck A heads towards an empty dumpster. Truck B heads towards a wall of fire. When truck A hits the dumpster, it goes flying, and the truck continues it's momentum.. Truck B hits the wall of fire, going out the other side. The flames are still there, it had no effect on them. See? What I am saying is that the Jedi are only shown using force push/pull on items that have mass, solid items (droids, people, blasters, lightsabers), and fire does not fall under this category. They don't have TK on Sue Storm's level, you know.
Bit of a stupid analogy given that the force isn't a solid object with fixed dimensions.
And as for what DDM said about the Jedi turning the fiendfyre back on the wizards, dont make me laugh, I just covered why they cannot do this. They aren't Pyro from the X Men, you know. Someone like Pyro? Yeah, the moment a Death eater comes at him with Fiendfyre, they've signed their own death warrant.
Did I even say anything about that?
So.....Force speed, limited, or countered with Arresto Momentum.
On what basis?...Other than because that's what you want to happen?
Force push against Fiendfyre? Useless.
Again, you have absolutely no basis for that opinion either.
There's also proof that force push acts on non solid objects. Given that Obi Wan and Anakin both try to force push each other for several seconds during their duel. Showing both that force push acts upon energy with no mass (like fire) and that it can be applied as a constant force rather than a single pulse (as you're suggesting)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSwy412nttI
1m 45s
So on the basis of your own criteria, I'd say that force push would have an effect on fire.
Originally posted by jaden101Are they SHIWN onscreen using it over and over and over at will, whenever they want? Nope. This argument has already been had by others, it was quite clear that the Jedi could not use force speed all the time.
So the Jedi can only use force speed to the extent they did in the movies but the wizards can use every spell over and over again despite not doing so in the movies?That's a bit....skewed.
What are you five years old?OK, so they go inside the temple, the fiendfyre pursues them and roats them inside instead of outside. If they lock the doors, an obliterating spell will turn the doors into rubble.You already stated in the opening post that the entire premise is a wizard attack on the Jedi temple.
Or do you just think the jedi are idiots? Do you not think they wont say..."right...these wizards can effectively fly up in the air...so lets go inside where that ability will be neutralised?"
The Jedi are some of the greatest military strategists their respective galaxy has ever know. Hence even Padawans are given the status of Commander in the clone armies.I never said the Jedi are not good strategists, its just that here they are in oper their head.
I dont recall any Padawans being Commanders in the movies.
You never mentioned anything about it being only feats from ROTS. You said only Jedi seen or mentioned in that film...Does that mean that even though the same characters are in the other 2 prequel trilogy films, the feats from those films aren't allowed because they weren't in revenge of the sith?...Again, a blatently obvious attempt at being childish and gimping.Do I have to spell it out for you? Do you need flash cards? Read the OP, its quite clear, no one else has questoned it.
You have absolutely no basis for that opinion whatsoever. I can just as easily say that the force has more of an effect on fire than it does on solid objects. You're just making it up to fit your argument. I can do that too.So now the Jedi are pyrokinetics? crylaugh You're REACHING, man.
Bit of a stupid analogy given that the force isn't a solid object with fixed dimensions.But it impacts it's desired target like it. Force push goes only where the Jedi aims it, and that range is very limited. They can block whats directly in front of them, but not to the side, not at the same time. Not even objects 15-20 degrees in either direction.
Did I even say anything about that?You pretty much just did.
On what basis?...Other than because that's what you want to happen?No, because thats what WILL happen. Watch HP, man.
Again, you have absolutely no basis for that opinion either.Actually I do, I have posted it, and it goes uncontested.
There's also proof that force push acts on non solid objects. Given that Obi Wan and Anakin both try to force push each other for several seconds during their duel. Showing both that force push acts upon energy with no mass (like fire) and that it can be applied as a constant force rather than a single pulse (as you're suggesting)yes, I know the scene. And it was the force push hitting Anakin and Obi Wan themselves that hurled them backwards. So what if they were deadlocked for a few seconds? That was the force on the force, NOT the force on fire. Again, you're reaching. You are ignoring what is NOT seen onscreen and HOPING to make a guess at what you want to happen, and that it will help you. It wont. It didnt. It actually hurt you.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSwy412nttI
1m 45s
So on the basis of your own criteria, I'd say that force push would have an effect on fire.
Think on it like this:
A Jedi has a 180 degrees field of vision. What's to his left, to his right, and what's in front of him. If a wall of fiendfyre has surrounded them, sure, they could do a force push, but what effect would it have? From what I can remember, the Jedi could only do force push in a limited range. For example: If they are surrounded by battle droids, and they force push a group of droids directly in front of them, the ones to the left and right are not affected by it, and the force push only covers maybe 30 to 45 degrees of their 180 degree field of vision. Now, after they force push, the fiendfyre that is not affected by the force push (the fiendfyre behind them and to the left and right) is going to swallow them.
Now, as for the part of the fiendfyre that they actually force push: The force will continuing moving through the fiendfyre, MAYBE causing a small gap in the fiendfyre, probably nothing more than a smalll ripple. The fiendfyre wil continue it's path towards them, and will, again, consume them.
As I said, fire has no mass and no weight, they have no way of "stopping" fiendfyre. The fiendfyre will strike all around them, will chase them inside the temple, will fry them and consume the temple.
Pretty cool stuff, actually.
Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
You're kidding, right? First of all, force users are only shown force pushing/pulling solid objects (Droids, blasters, lightsabers, people), they are never shown force pushing/pulling away anything like water or fire. If a wall of fiendfyre is coming at a Jedi and the Jedi force pushes towards it, sure, it might cause a ripple or two, but the fiendfyre is gonna keep coming at them.
So, now, all of a sudden, the force cannot control matter anymore, huh?
Sorry, that won't fly.
Force works just fine for fire or any other matter, for that matter. 🙂
Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
But let's say it works, that they can force push fiendfyre.. *LOLing*.....The Jedi force pushes the fiendfyre, it stops. It will simply climb higher (Like Voldemorts fiendfyre in OOTP, it was easily 50 feet tall), over the range of the force push, and attack from above, or around the side of it. A force push is not all encompassing, force users cannot make it spread out all around them, it is an aimed attack, they are vulnerable from all other directions.
Oh, so now there's a range of less than 50 feet, huh? So, we are going to arbitrarily put limits on stuff that don't exist, right?
K.
So, fiendfyre can only be used by Dumbledore and Voldemort 1 time each. It takes 3 hours to "recharge" enough to use it again.
Also, they can only "push" around fiendfyre with less than 50 pounds of force, making it easily overpowered by even a youngling. The force users have a force range of 200 feet.
Yup, I made all of that up. Arbirtrarily pulled those numbers out of my ass.
Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
And as I have shown in the vid, the fiendfyre will be in the form of MANY "comets", coming at the Jedi from all directions. They are gonna have their hands full "force pushing"...*ROTFLMAOing*.....the fiendfyre away, wide open for attacks from other wizards at ground level. The Jedi are screwed no matter how you slice it.
1. Right, cause Jedi cannot dodge sub-100mph objects cause that's waaaay beyond their ability.
2. And, none of the Jedi can force push the wizards, at all.
3. None of the Jedi's can "see" behind themselves because they HAVE to see whatever is coming at them, with their eyes.
Points 1-3 are sarcasm.
Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
No let's talk apparating and half apparating. The Death Eaters are shown collapsing into thick clouds of black smoke and half apparating around London in THBP, the OOTP is shown doing the same at the ministry in OOTP, and Bellatrix and Fenrir are shown attacking the Burrow from hundreds of feet high, castinf fiendfyre as they go. Now, it's pretty obvious that a wizard, while half apparating, is not a solid mass. For all we know spells go right through them. In OOTP, when Tonks was chasing Bellatrix, both of them half apparating, why didn't they cast spells on one another? It's certainly not because they cannot cast spells while half apparating, the burrow vid proves that they can. The only thing we can assume is that the spell will have little to no effect on them. Smashing through the walls of a house, taking no damage, looks pretty uber to me.
You call this "half-apparating" but there is not such name for what they are doing. It is closer to transmuting their bodies into some sort of nebulous mass.
Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Also, at the beginning of THBP, the death eaters are shown smashing through a thick brick wall that seperates the muggle world from Diagon's alley. How did they do this? One might argue brute force, but it's obvious they used a spell similar to the one Ginny Weasley used on the training dummy in OOTP, an obliterating spell/charm of some sort.
Or, let's go with the obvious: those clouds actually have mass and their speed simply smashed through those bricks.
Also, your 180 degree field of vision argument is complete fail. The Jedi's don't even have to see what is around them to be aware of it. That is rather fundemental to the Jedi and their ability.
Originally posted by dadudemonTotally missing my point. The Jedi are only shown force pushing away ONLY solid objects, for them to force push away an entire wall of fiendfyre means you are now giving them pyrokinetic ability. Kudos.
So, now, all of a sudden, the force cannot control matter anymore, huh?Sorry, that won't fly.
Force works just fine for fire or any other matter, for that matter. 🙂
Tell me, in any of the SW movies, when are force users shown force pushing/pulling something like fire? Something without mass?
Never.
The force hits it's desired target like a sledgehammer, aimed at a certain spot and driving it back. Throw a sledgehammer at a wall of flame and see what happens.
Oh, so now there's a range of less than 50 feet, huh? So, we are going to arbitrarily put limits on stuff that don't exist, right?haermm You made me laugh, *****.K.
So, fiendfyre can only be used by Dumbledore and Voldemort 1 time each. It takes 3 hours to "recharge" enough to use it again.
Also, they can only "push" around fiendfyre with less than 50 pounds of force, making it easily overpowered by even a youngling. The force users have a force range of 200 feet.
Yup, I made all of that up. Arbirtrarily pulled those numbers out of my ass.
Bellatrix used fiendfyre within moments twice. Pwned. Both times while in flight, pwned. The first time from hundreds of feet in the sky, epic pwn.
Tell me, as far as force attacks go, what's the farthest we see a Jedi doing force push from? Cuz you know, that's like as far as they can attack from. It's like onscreen and stuff. If a Jedi is shown attacking from no longer than 20 feet, you can't say the same attack will work from 300 feet.
1. Right, cause Jedi cannot dodge sub-100mph objects cause that's waaaay beyond their ability.The fiendfyre comets were moving way faster than sub 100 mph, stop being a cheerleader.
2. And, none of the Jedi can force push the wizards, at all.Not as far out as the wizards will be, nope. And if they are focused on force pushing the wizards, the fiendfyre will get them, and the wizards on the ground will zap their ass. This is where the diversity of wizard magic comes into play. Oh yah, if the wizards are force pushed or pulled, apparate away, then attack again. There is literally no way for the Jedi to use their sabers here. Force pulling and impaling a wizard will be fail, epic fail, anti pwn uber fail.
3. None of the Jedi's can "see" behind themselves because they HAVE to see whatever is coming at them, with their eyes.Doesn't matter, uber as they are, they can only attack in one direction at a time. Never is a Jedi shown using force powers in all directions.
Points 1-3 are sarcasm.And all pwned with uber wizard powers and logic.
You call this "half-apparating" but there is not such name for what they are doing. It is closer to transmuting their bodies into some sort of nebulous mass.It's a form of apparition, there was a link I used in the 501st thread, looking for it now.
Or, let's go with the obvious: those clouds actually have mass and their speed simply smashed through those bricks.So billowing clouds of smoke smash through brick walls.
Riiiiiiiiight...................
More likely they cast an obliterating spell on the brick wall.
BTW, the wizards were flying around at speeds fast enough to destroy a concrete bridge, win.
Also, your 180 degree field of vision argument is complete fail. The Jedi's don't even have to see what is around them to be aware of it. That is rather fundemental to the Jedi and their ability.Agreed 110% on that, but they cannot ATTACK in all directions at once. The fiendfyre will be coming at them from all directions. It will surround them, fry them, then for the lulz anally probe them.
To all you others, ignore the "pwns" in this post, it's a DDM/RJ thing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_in_Harry_Potter#Flying
About halfway down the page:
In the "Order of the Phoenix" film, Death Eaters and Order members Apparated and Disapparated in clouds of smoke. Death Eaters would appear and disappear in black smoke, Order members in white. In the movie, both sides also seemed to be able to "half-apparate" in which their bodies were made out of smoke, giving them the ability to fly.
"Bodies made of black smoke".......Oh dear.......
HRp085AmjpE&feature=related
Are they SHIWN onscreen using it over and over and over at will, whenever they want? Nope. This argument has already been had by others, it was quite clear that the Jedi could not use force speed all the time.
Are the wizards shown onscreen using fiendfyre over and over again?...No...So why not apply your argument against the Jedi to your own opinions?
I dont recall any Padawans being Commanders in the movies.
Obviously weren't paying attention then were you.
Do I have to spell it out for you? Do you need flash cards? Read the OP, its quite clear, no one else has questoned it.
Noone else has picked you up on it?...Big deal...I am. Not allowing their feats from other movies is almost as pathetic as saying that once Anakin became Vader then his feats from ROTS from that point on aren't allowed even though it's the same person....Oh no wait..You've tried to use that argument as well.
yes, I know the scene. And it was the force push hitting Anakin and Obi Wan themselves that hurled them backwards. So what if they were deadlocked for a few seconds? That was the force on the force, NOT the force on fire. Again, you're reaching. You are ignoring what is NOT seen onscreen and HOPING to make a guess at what you want to happen, and that it will help you. It wont. It didnt. It actually hurt you.
Your argument was that the force doesn't work on energy with no mass...Which is exactly what the force (and fire) is. I proved you wrong.
I'm not the one making things up here. You are. You're the one claiming that force push would have no effect on fire because it only works on solid objects. You even used an extremely shit analogy to try and prove your point. I just proved it unequivocally wrong with on screen feats.
So now the Jedi are pyrokinetics? You're REACHING, man.
I'm not the one trying to state things as undeniable and undebatable fact....You are...With no actual basis for your opinion.
This is the equivalent of your argument.
The force can't effect wizards because it wasn't shown on screen but the harry potter magic can effect the Jedi even though it wasn't shown on screen.
But it impacts it's desired target like it. Force push goes only where the Jedi aims it, and that range is very limited. They can block whats directly in front of them, but not to the side, not at the same time. Not even objects 15-20 degrees in either direction.
Here's a perfect example of it. You're stating that the Jedi can't use force push in multiple directions because it wasn't shown on screen yet you're saying that the wizards can use fiendfyre over and over again from huge distances even though that wasn't shown on screen.
Idiot logic and you know it.
As I said, fire has no mass and no weight, they have no way of "stopping" fiendfyre. The fiendfyre will strike all around them, will chase them inside the temple, will fry them and consume the temple.
And you repeat a statement that I just proved wrong. The force has no mass of weight yet I just showed the force acting upon the force.
Totally missing my point. The Jedi are only shown force pushing away ONLY solid objects, for them to force push away an entire wall of fiendfyre means you are now giving them pyrokinetic ability. Kudos.
No it's not...I just quite blatently proved you wrong. Repeating it to someone else doesn't make it true.
Tell me, in any of the SW movies, when are force users shown force pushing/pulling something like fire? Something without mass? Never. The force hits it's desired target like a sledgehammer, aimed at a certain spot and driving it back. Throw a sledgehammer at a wall of flame and see what happens.
Are you just going to parrot the same line over and over again despite it being a lie?
Tell me, as far as force attacks go, what's the farthest we see a Jedi doing force push from? Cuz you know, that's like as far as they can attack from. It's like onscreen and stuff. If a Jedi is shown attacking from no longer than 20 feet, you can't say the same attack will work from 300 feet.
Except Sidious and Yoda attacking each other with senate pods from far further than 20ft with little of no effort.
Not as far out as the wizards will be, nope. And if they are focused on force pushing the wizards, the fiendfyre will get them, and the wizards on the ground will zap their ass. This is where the diversity of wizard magic comes into play. Oh yah, if the wizards are force pushed or pulled, apparate away, then attack again. There is literally no way for the Jedi to use their sabers here. Force pulling and impaling a wizard will be fail, epic fail, anti pwn uber fail.
Using the words "pwn" and "uber" over and over again make you look like a 13 year old idiot. They also make you look wrong...Which is ok because you are wrong. You're also an idiot. But you're not 13.
More likely they cast an obliterating spell on the brick wall.
So now it's a matter of "more likely" rather than what actually happened?
Sums up your debating style in a nutshell really.
Originally posted by jaden101No, but the wizards are shown using and sustaining fiendfyre for longer periods of time.
Are the wizards shown onscreen using fiendfyre over and over again?...No...So why not apply your argument against the Jedi to your own opinions?
Obviously weren't paying attention then were you.Been a while since I watched them. Movie? Scene number?
Noone else has picked you up on it?...Big deal...I am. Not allowing their feats from other movies is almost as pathetic as saying that once Anakin became Vader then his feats from ROTS from that point on aren't allowed even though it's the same person....Oh no wait..You've tried to use that argument as well.Wait, I misunderstood you, I thought you meant CHARACTERS. The powers displayed in ROTS are pretty much the same as TPM and AOTC, correct?
Your argument was that the force doesn't work on energy with no mass...Which is exactly what the force (and fire) is. I proved you wrong.Again, you're talking force on force, fire on force is not the same. You proved shit.
I'm not the one making things up here. You are. You're the one claiming that force push would have no effect on fire because it only works on solid objects. You even used an extremely shit analogy to try and prove your point. I just proved it unequivocally wrong with on screen feats.Lookie:
The MVF Golden Rule:What is seen on screen is canon in these forums. If your character you wish to use has feats/actions/handicaps that contradict what that character did on screen (movie canon), then it is a violation and is illegal. MOVIE FEATS ONLY!
The Jedi are not shown force pushing ANYTHING that is not solid (blasters, droids, etc), never, not once. What you are doing is assuming that because Obi Wan and Anakin were deadlocked in a force push, a Jedi can totally stop a huge wall of fiendfyre. Your assumption is wrong and laughable. I'll say it again:
The Jedi are never shown force pushing anything similar to fire, something that has no mass.
Now read the MVF golden rule again.
Getting through yet?
Good.
I'm not the one trying to state things as undeniable and undebatable fact....You are...With no actual basis for your opinion.When the hell did I say the force cannot affect wizards? I claimed that a wizard is nothing more than a cloud of smoke while half apparating, therefore they cannot be harmed by force atttacks, that's all. You make it sound like I said wizard are unfazed by the force.This is the equivalent of your argument.
The force can't effect wizards because it wasn't shown on screen but the harry potter magic can effect the Jedi even though it wasn't shown on screen.
Undeniable and undebatable fact is that the Jedi are never shown force pushing something that has no mass. End fact.
Here's a perfect example of it. You're stating that the Jedi can't use force push in multiple directions because it wasn't shown on screen yet you're saying that the wizards can use fiendfyre over and over again from huge distances even though that wasn't shown on screen.No, it's what was shown onscreen.Idiot logic and you know it.
"Hey Jaden, Voldemort can make his penis into fiendfyre and impregnate Yoda with a wookkie love child!!!"
How stupid would it be if I said "Hey, the above statement COULD happen, even though we didn't see it onscreen?"
Not shown onscreen, never happened. MVF rules, babe.
If a Jedi force pushes a wall of steel, they can hit it anywhere and it will fly backwards, why? Because it is a solid object that has mass. Fire has no mass. If they force push fiendfyre, the whole wall of fire aint gonna move like a solid object with mass. When are you gonna get that? You drive your car into a row of shopping carts, it sends them flying. You drive the same car into a wall of flame, what happens?
I don't know how to dumb it down anymore than that.
And you repeat a statement that I just proved wrong. The force has no mass of weight yet I just showed the force acting upon the force.I am forrced to repeat it because you are ignoring screen feats, making wild assumptions based on Obi Wan and Anakin force pushing each other. You have zero proof to back that shit up.
No it's not...I just quite blatently proved you wrong. Repeating it to someone else doesn't make it true.crylaugh What is it with you? You haven't proven anything and you know it crylaugh I am literally laughing like that right now, mind you.
Are you just going to parrot the same line over and over again despite it being a lie?Until you accept it as truth, yes.
Except Sidious and Yoda attacking each other with senate pods from far further than 20ft with little of no effort.Ah, I just pwned DDM over the phone with this, buckle up, boyo:
The rotundas were only ten to twenty feet from them when they TK grabbed them. Sidious TK grabbed them and hurled them, and they made their way to Yoda on their own momentum. Same with Yoda, he TK grabbed them as they neared him, a few feet away, and hurled them back at Sidious.
You are running, right? You grab a shopping cart and oush it with all your might. The cart rolls forward, why? Because of the momentum sustained AFTER you pushed it.
Get it? Got it? Good.
Using the words "pwn" and "uber" over and over again make you look like a 13 year old idiot. They also make you look wrong...Which is ok because you are wrong. You're also an idiot. But you're not 13.Pwned.
So now it's a matter of "more likely" rather than what actually happened?How the hell else does a could of black smoke shatter a brick wall? Hmm? Please share.Sums up your debating style in a nutshell really.
Survey says.....A spell!!! But hey, keep ignoring my indisputable evidence and calling me an idiot if you can't do anything more than post what you THINK happened.
Jaden, you can't alter what someone did onscreen. If they did a certain feat on a certain item/person, then we can use only that. A Jedi is never shown force pushing an object that has no mass, therefore they can't. Not here, anyway. Even if it makes you smack the wall and yell "Logic be damned!!!"
Since the introduction of the new MVF "golden rule", that's the way of things. I didn't make the rules, Impediment did. And I'll admit that it's much easier this way.
A perfect example of what you are doing now is the Swagger/47 thread. Rob's argument was that 47 made the longer shot. I argued that it was bullshit, that no rifle can make that shot, and that if Swagger had 47's rifle, he could make the shot. I was wrong in doing that.
Yes, Rob, I am admitting that, right here right now, gloat.
In the end, it was a question of Swagger's stalking and all around sniping feats against 47's one feat.
I tried altering Swagger's feat and it was fail, so I went back to the rules and went by them.
Just an example.
Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Against fiendfyre, force push/pull is out.
No, it isn't. Force push/pull works just fine against matter: fire is matter (the hot part is radiation..lulz).
The idea that the force all of a sudden stops working at the fundamental levels is what is out.
You tell someone that a Jedi can't move air, and they'll laugh at you and wonder if you're confusing "jedi" for something else.
To further solidify this, Yoda said that size does not matter. (pun intended.) You gonna contradict Yoda?
Also, if they cannot apply the force is specific shapes, explain why force push has been as small as the palm of the hand (in a ball, no less) in the case of Anakin and Obi Wan in the control room in Ep III, and then the force is applied at a generally large and flat area in the case of Yoda stopping all of that rubble from falling onto Obi and Anakin in Ep. III, and then the force was in tiny concentrated area, only hitting two droids several feet away from Qui Gon Gin in Ep. I.
Obviously, the force push can be focused in specific areas.
I just checked Wookiepedia for other examples. Apparently, force-push is...get this, "a concussive burst of pressurized air".
So, explain to me why a Jedi has to use the force push from several hundreds of feet away? They only need to keep the fire a few feet away from themselves. They should also be able to easily bend the fire back against the wizards.
Originally posted by dadudemon
No, it isn't. Force push/pull works just fine against matter: fire is matter (the hot part is radiation..lulz).The idea that the force all of a sudden stops working at the fundamental levels is what is out.
You tell someone that a Jedi can't move air, and they'll laugh at you and wonder if you're confusing "jedi" for something else.
Use the truck analogy I posted. It's silly, but at the same time perfect for this argument.
Also what I just posted to Jaden. Onscreen feats is what counts.
The Jedi are never shown force pushing anything that has no mass, i.e. fire. To say they can is the epitome of guessing and speculation.
Force push is useless against Fiendfyre, the fiendfyre will will simply go over or aroudn it. Force pull is useless against a wizard, they will simply apparate away.
Originally posted by dadudemonTo further solidify this, Yoda said that size does not matter. (pun intended.) You gonna contradict Yoda?
Also, if they cannot apply the force is specific shapes, explain why force push has been as small as the palm of the hand (in a ball, no less) in the case of Anakin and Obi Wan in the control room in Ep III, and then the force is applied at a generally large and flat area in the case of Yoda stopping all of that rubble from falling onto Obi and Anakin in Ep. III, and then the force was in tiny concentrated area, only hitting two droids several feet away from Qui Gon Gin in Ep. I.
Obviously, the force push can be focused in specific areas.
I just checked Wookiepedia for other examples. Apparently, force-push is...get this, "a concussive burst of pressurized air".
Size has nothing to do with being solid, with having mass. A marble has mass, whereas a flicker of fire that size does not.
Stop comparing force LIFT to force push. The rubble was in front of Yoda, it covered about 30 degrees of his forward field of vision, and it had MASS.
The force can be aimed, but not enough to counter a big ass wall of fiendfyre. Or a wall of surrounding fiendfyre.