Howgarts wizards versus Sidious and the Jedi Order...

Started by Rogue Jedi24 pages

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Oh dear. Watch Revenge of the Sith.
I think Mace disagrees with you.

Also Count Dooku ( A student of Sidious ) cleared greater distances too.

Together with more false assumptions you make about the jedi's defenses.

You may now deactivate your childish, smug OTT sulk mode. 🙂

Mace was like three feet when Sidious connected with the force lightning, the lightning stayed connected with Mace as he was hurled into the Coruscant skyline (which was really cool BTW)

Here, the wizards (twenty to thirty of them) will be flying around at breakneck speeds, shooting car sized comets of fiendfyre, over and over again. From hundreds of feet in the sky, likely under cloud cover.

Sure, the Jedi avoid a few, but the bulk of them will hit the surface and attack the Jedi all at once. And I am sure a few wizards buy it, but in the end, the fiendfyre will get the Jedi.

Try again.

Originally posted by Nephthys
With you so far.....

Buuuuut you fumble it. Your link proved nothing I'm afraid. The Fiendfyre could have come from another wizard other than Bellatrix, its just that you're assuming it was her becuase its rather good for your argument. For example: The one controlling it could have curved it above the field so as not to set it on fire and ruin the trap for Potter. The one controlling it could have been on a broom. The point is that wizards can't cast spells once half-appparated. Thanks for playing.

And answer my post or face my wrath!

There were two death eaters shown, dude. We have no choice but to assume it was them. Also, they are shown flying through the burrow and casting fiendfyre. There is literally no other way it could have been anyone other than Bellatrix of the werewolf.

OR the werewolf.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Wizards win? How do the Dementors make the 'wizards win'? They make the Dementors win becuase they can't be beaten, you may as well put God on their side.
Exactly. A wizard (Umbridge) can control them, therefore they are a weapon that makes the wizards unbeatable.

And how exactly does she summon the Dementors? Is there a spell? Does she need to send an owl? She's on Coruscant, are there Dementors there? We have no idea how she ordered them about before, for all we know she had to steal a once-only security seal of approval, we don't know if she can replicate.
They are under the control of the ministry, Fudge is the head of the ministry, she is his second. He pretty much went with whatever she said in OOTP. Dunno if it's a spell or whatever, all that matters is she can summon them and order them.

Also, technically you stated that it would be the 'Hogwarts staff', you never said which incarnation of it though. Forum rules dictate that its therefore the newest one, of which Umbridge is not a member.
Bullshit, there is no forum rule stating this.

Half-apparating. Which is obvious if you actually watch the damn scene.

No, they didn't.

Half apparating is what we see at the beginning of THBP, and when Tonks is chasing Bellatrix around in the battle scene. Apparating is what we see when the OOTP members are not there one second, then BAM, they are there.

Actually, they did. They just couldn't show it visibly in the movie because of various reasons. However when asked the exact same question you did, Lucas and co said that they in fact were using FSpeed.
They couldn't show it? Dude, stop reaching. It wasn't shown, therefore it didnt happen.

And way to dodge the point btw.
No, I covered and buried your point.

Yes there is. I just posted it.
No, there isn't, stop denying what we are shown onscreen.

Relevance?
That either they burst through it with brute force, or with a spell?

You mean fallible. And yes it is fallible. It can be overwhelmed and it can be overlooked, the users are only human (and Yoda etc), but not to a degree that you'd like to think. For example, Vader was totally focused on Luke in that scene (if I know what the hell you're talking about), so he didn't concentrate on precog. In a face to face battle, Jedi do.

Also, PIS.

Yeah, I was being sarcastic, of course it's fallible.

It wont be a one on one battle, dude, there will be fiendfyre comets exploding everywhere.

If its the same way you know how magic works, you don't know shit. And concession accepted.
haermm Whatever. I conceded nothing.

Proof? Or are you making stuff up?
The fact that Voldemort was able to control it in OOTP, and the scene at the burrow in THBP.

The definition of a spite thread.
The thread was necessary because wizard power is constantly underestimated here, now that I have proven without a doubt that the wizards win, it has served it's purpose.

Aha, whatever you say sport. Now bear in mind that this point was originally about how a Jedi could counter Fiendfyre and see how much sense that makes.
A Jedi cant counter fiendfyre, thats the whole point.

Again a dodge. My point was that Yoda could snap Volde's neck and dodge a death spell at the same time, which he can.
Dont see how Yoda is gonna snap Voldys neck when Voldy is hundreds of feet away, but OK.

Or if Malfoy has his Hand of Glory. But still, Jedi senses.
Again, precog is proven unreliable.

'Magic is just a form of energy, just like the Force, blah blah'.

Except by tombstones, remember? And Jedi can easily dodge death spells. Particularly when only a few have shown to be able to use it and the fact that not just anyone can use it and that you have to be exceptionally strong to cause anything stronger than a nose-bleed.

And force lightning and force spells would be blocked by a wall, point?

Absence of proof is not proof of absence. The air is not visibly shown on-screen, is it there?
No haermm Dunno where you're going with this, but OK. We see two death eaters, thats what we have to work with.

Thats your interpretation, there are numerous other's. You have proven nothing.
Based on what we are shown in the movies, my interpretation is accurate.

Good, or this argument is done.
The argument was done the moment the thread was started, it's retarded to think the Jedi cna contend with what the wizards have to offer.

So she can't just summon them magically? Shame, there goes your last hope, no dementors.
I already covered this.

No, you see Fiendfyre coming from above and then Bellatrix doing the same. You assume the two are linked, when really you can't prove any such thing. Stupid Nice try though.
Any other dark wizards SHOWN in that scene? Nope. It was Bellatrix and the werewolf, thats it. We are shown them and only them, therefore it was them.

You do realise that the jedi can use force jump, speed and heal

Force speed is limited. They cannot force jump hundreds of feet into the air. Force heal is EU.

I think how far Obi Wan jumps to get to Qui-Gon and Maul is high enough to jump over a wall of fiendfyre http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPLXwrj7i7Q

Well well.

Looks like RJ put up a shit ton of pwnage. And, reviewing his points, he's right on almost every last one of them.

However, that doesn't counter what I said:

No wizard in all of the HP-verse is fast enough to contend with even a new Padawan.

All of a sudden, spells/curses that fly at 60-100 MPH are supposed to give Jedi trouble? That's ridiculous. Even younglings would have no problem with spells.

It was established, in another versus thread, that blaster bolts travel between 400-600 MPH (with high end bolts traveling 5+KMH and one low end showing in the trash compactor of about 60 MPH.) So, we go with the average since there is PIS:400-600 MPH.

Fiendfyre is easily controlled/blocked by force push. In fact, it would work horribly against the wizards: the fire could easily be pushed back in their direction. Unless someone here wants to suggest that fire has waaaay too much mass that Jedi cannot manipulate it. (yeah, I'm being sarcastic.)

Also, unless the thread starter specifies, the force is NOT a physical force, it is NOT a magical force. It is something else and, therefore, shield charms do not stop the force unless it is force lightening (because lightning is basically a particle beam comprised of electrons...and a shield charm blocks physical and magical forces...and electrons flying at almost the speed of light would fall under "physical".)

In a one on one duel, I would put a padawan against Dumbledore.

Also, remember, no one can use an ability they didn't use on screen: Mace cannot force crush unless the thread start allows it (due to Grievous getting his cough from an EU source, but carrying it over into the very much canon Ep. III...making his force crush almost perfectly canon...but still not quite. So, I say leave it up to the thread starter.), Palps canNOT use force storm, no wizard can use a spell that they were not shown using except for the forbidden ones (in which case, all dark wizards can use those) UNLESS it can be logically proven that a wizard can use that spell, etc.

A one to one versus match would end up with the Jedi's winning rather easily. Since it's closer to 4 to 1, the Jedi win in a stomp with very few losses.

No, there was no 'pwnage'; what you said, is what everyone has been saying, "the Jedi win."

Originally posted by dadudemon
Well well.

Looks like RJ put up a shit ton of pwnage. And, reviewing his points, he's right on almost every last one of them.

However, that doesn't counter what I said:

No wizard in all of the HP-verse is fast enough to contend with even a new Padawan.

All of a sudden, spells/curses that fly at 60-100 MPH are supposed to give Jedi trouble? That's ridiculous. Even younglings would have no problem with spells.

It was established, in another versus thread, that blaster bolts travel between 400-600 MPH (with high end bolts traveling 5+KMH and one low end showing in the trash compactor of about 60 MPH.) So, we go with the average since there is PIS:400-600 MPH.

Fiendfyre is easily controlled/blocked by force push. In fact, it would work horribly against the wizards: the fire could easily be pushed back in their direction. Unless someone here wants to suggest that fire has waaaay too much mass that Jedi cannot manipulate it. (yeah, I'm being sarcastic.)

Also, unless the thread starter specifies, the force is NOT a physical force, it is NOT a magical force. It is something else and, therefore, shield charms do not stop the force unless it is force lightening (because lightning is basically a particle beam comprised of electrons...and a shield charm blocks physical and magical forces...and electrons flying at almost the speed of light would fall under "physical".)

In a one on one duel, I would put a padawan against Dumbledore.

Also, remember, no one can use an ability they didn't use on screen: Mace cannot force crush unless the thread start allows it (due to Grievous getting his cough from an EU source, but carrying it over into the very much canon Ep. III...making his force crush almost perfectly canon...but still not quite. So, I say leave it up to the thread starter.), Palps canNOT use force storm, no wizard can use a spell that they were not shown using except for the forbidden ones (in which case, all dark wizards can use those) UNLESS it can be logically proven that a wizard can use that spell, etc.

A one to one versus match would end up with the Jedi's winning rather easily. Since it's closer to 4 to 1, the Jedi win in a stomp with very few losses.

Yeah, we're gonna circle back to this, but first, 4 to 1? We need a closer to accurate count here. I'll work on it a bit, I suggest you do the same. Remember, the following are to be included:

Jedi: All Masters/ Knights SHOWN in ROTS, and Sidious. Remember, this is all about ROTS, what was happening it ROTS is happening here.

Wizards: Voldemort, Dumbledore, All the Death Eaters, All the OOTP members, the entire Hogwarts faculty.

I think we should discount any half trained Padawans/half trained Wizard students, because there were a shitload more wizards than students, I'll let you guys make that call.

Fiendfyre is easily controlled/blocked by force push. In fact, it would work horribly against the wizards: the fire could easily be pushed back in their direction. Unless someone here wants to suggest that fire has waaaay too much mass that Jedi cannot manipulate it. (yeah, I'm being sarcastic.)
You're kidding, right? First of all, force users are only shown force pushing/pulling solid objects (Droids, blasters, lightsabers, people), they are never shown force pushing/pulling away anything like water or fire. If a wall of fiendfyre is coming at a Jedi and the Jedi force pushes towards it, sure, it might cause a ripple or two, but the fiendfyre is gonna keep coming at them.

But let's say it works, that they can force push fiendfyre.. *LOLing*.....The Jedi force pushes the fiendfyre, it stops. It will simply climb higher (Like Voldemorts fiendfyre in OOTP, it was easily 50 feet tall), over the range of the force push, and attack from above, or around the side of it. A force push is not all encompassing, force users cannot make it spread out all around them, it is an aimed attack, they are vulnerable from all other directions.

And as I have shown in the vid, the fiendfyre will be in the form of MANY "comets", coming at the Jedi from all directions. They are gonna have their hands full "force pushing"...*ROTFLMAOing*.....the fiendfyre away, wide open for attacks from other wizards at ground level. The Jedi are screwed no matter how you slice it.

No let's talk apparating and half apparating. The Death Eaters are shown collapsing into thick clouds of black smoke and half apparating around London in THBP, the OOTP is shown doing the same at the ministry in OOTP, and Bellatrix and Fenrir are shown attacking the Burrow from hundreds of feet high, castinf fiendfyre as they go. Now, it's pretty obvious that a wizard, while half apparating, is not a solid mass. For all we know spells go right through them. In OOTP, when Tonks was chasing Bellatrix, both of them half apparating, why didn't they cast spells on one another? It's certainly not because they cannot cast spells while half apparating, the burrow vid proves that they can. The only thing we can assume is that the spell will have little to no effect on them. Smashing through the walls of a house, taking no damage, looks pretty uber to me.

Also, at the beginning of THBP, the death eaters are shown smashing through a thick brick wall that seperates the muggle world from Diagon's alley. How did they do this? One might argue brute force, but it's obvious they used a spell similar to the one Ginny Weasley used on the training dummy in OOTP, an obliterating spell/charm of some sort.

House Elves, anyone?

Add on the fact that Umbridge can and probably would order the Dementors to join the fray, wizard cakewalk.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi

House Elves, anyone?

Add on the fact that Umbridge can and probably would order the Dementors to join the fray, wizard cakewalk.

Still amending the thread after the fact.

How do the house elves get there?

How do the dementors get there?

How does anything else you intend on adding after the fact get there?

Originally posted by Robtard
Still amending the thread after the fact.

How do the house elves get there?

How do the dementors get there?

How does anything else you intend on adding after the fact get there?

The house elves thing was sarcasm, dude. But to answer your question, they appear magically whereever their master needs them.

Umbridge summoned them from Azkaban before the battle.

There's no add on's. Umbridge is Hogwarts faculty. She works directly under Fudge, head of the Ministry. The ministry have direct control of the Dementors. Pretty simple.

Like I said before, if a Jedi could somehow do something like become Dr. Manhattan. you'd be all over it.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
The house elves thing was sarcasm, dude. But to answer your question, they appear magically whereever their master needs them.

Umbridge summoned them from Azkaban before the battle.

There's no add on's. Umbridge is Hogwarts faculty. She works directly under Fudge, head of the Ministry. The ministry have direct control of the Dementors. Pretty simple.

Like I said before, if a Jedi could somehow do something like become Dr. Manhattan. you'd be all over it.

Dementors would be on another planet. Never been shown they can travel across space and time.

Dementors are being included now, as the Wizards were shown to lose already. Poor form, that. (you ignored my point on this, multiple times)

No, if the Jedi would lose, I wouldn't be trying to add things to angle a win. What's the point in that.

Originally posted by Robtard
Dementors would be on another planet. Never been shown they can travel across space and time.

Dementors are being included now, as the Wizards were shown to lose already. Poor form, that.

No, if the Jedi would lose, I wouldn't be trying to add thing to angle a win. What's the point in that.

How did the wizards get there? How did 99% of the combatants in the MVF get to the battle location? Stop splitting hairs, dude. The Dementors are a weapon that can be used if Umbridge decides to. No wizard gimping here.

The wizards haven't been shown to lose, I countered and then buried the argument against feindfyre.

Still waiting on someone to figure how many Knights/Masters were shown in ROTS. 4 to 1 my ass.

For the record, the Dementors were ordered to attack Harry in TPOA and OOTP. They followed the orders given to them by the wizard who wanted this.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
How did the wizards get there? How did 99% of the combatants in the MVF get to the battle location? Stop splitting hairs, dude. The Dementors are a weapon that can be used if Umbridge decides to. No wizard gimping here.

The wizards haven't been shown to lose, I countered and then buried the argument against feindfyre.

Still waiting on someone to figure how many Knights/Masters were shown in ROTS. 4 to 1 my ass.

No, they'd be combatants; don't think the wizards carry them around like a wand or lightsabre. No different than added the clones to the Jedi side now.

Na, only thing you did was gimp and bring in extra combatants that the Jedi couldn't feasibly win against; this was after your opening argument was pounded like an alter-boy after Xmas Mass.

Not sure, but the Masters we know of, Yoda, Mace, Obi and the council members plus all the Knights are enough to crush the HP wizards.

Originally posted by Robtard
No, they'd be combatants; don't think the wizards carry them around like a wand or lightsabre. No different than added the clones to the Jedi side now.

Na, only thing you did was gimp and bring in extra combatants that the Jedi couldn't feasibly win against; this was after your opening argument was pounded like an alter-boy after Xmas Mass.

Not sure, but the Masters we know of, Yoda, Mace and the council members plus all the Knights are enough to crush the HP wizards.

Shit, bring in the Clones, the Dementors would tear them a new one.

The Jedi cant possibly win as it is.

No, Rob. The fiendfyre would kill them in seconds. Read where I said how force push would have little to no effect on fiendfyre. The death eaters are far out of range from force push and pull, the Jedi are never shown force pushing/pulling anything hundreds of feet away. The fiendfyre will consume them quicker than shit, there is no contesting this.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Shit, bring in the Clones, the Dementors would tear them a new one.

The Jedi cant possibly win as it is.

Yeah, been over how fighting against an invisble enemy you can't defend against or attack is obviously a win.

So:

Originally posted by Robtard

Listen, if you had intended for the Dementors to be included from the very start, then Sadako with the first post-reply nailed you right, this is a spite-thread, nothing more. So it should have been closed then and there.

Sorry, you can't have your gimp-cake and eat it too, common sense, you know. Either you made a spite-thread on purpose, or you gimped the scenario after you were spanked. Pick.

Originally posted by Robtard
Yeah, been over how fighting against an invisble enemy you can defend against or attack is obviously a win.

So:

Miss my point? I meant the Jedi cannot possibly win even without the Dementors in the mix, but you knew that already. The Dementors simply add insult to injury, or, in this case, death.

Like I said, there is no way for the Jedi to attack the Death eaters and Voldemort as they half apparate in the sky hundreds of feet high. There is no defense against the fiendfyre. And as the Jedi try in vain to force push away the fiendfyre, they leave themselves open to attack from wizards on the ground. If they focus on the wizards on the ground, the wizards above will fiendfyre/spell them.

I dunno why you people can't see this, what we are shown onscreen proves it a hundred times over.

But hey, keep crying over the Dementors, the sight of a grown man with epic butthurt makes me chuckle.

The Dementors are a tool, a weapon, that the wizards can use to kill the Jedi. This is pretty much the definition of the word "weapon." And for now, they are part of scenario A, let's move on to scenario B, no Dementors.