Sephiroth, Kratos, and Kain v.s. Samus Aran and MewTwo

Started by LLLLLink20 pages

Originally posted by Burning thought
He gets slashed by the wrath blade beforehand which has consistently throughout the game been used to phase through opponents nad eat their souls, it did not phase through Kain. Also Raziel is just as strong as Kain physically based on feats, theres those blocks that I have shown in the Kain thread but there are huge pillars probably thicker and larger than those Link moves in another part of the game. Annoyingly enough I cannot find the video/clip for those 🙁

Besides Kain does not need durability, his supernatural powers allow him to survive things the others in this group could not.

Well, I watched the battle between Kain and Raziel, and Kain cant even stand up to a weak TK blast from Raziel. Also, I saw that the Soul Reaver shattered when it struck Raziel, so that kinda kills any feat the sword has because its durability seems to suck.
That being said, Mewtwo has displayed feats of much more powerful and destructive TK, for example, leveling Pokemon Mansion while he was supposed to be comatose for gene study. There is a whole movie's worth of feats if that isn't enough.

Originally posted by LLLLLink
Well, I watched the battle between Kain and Raziel, and Kain cant even stand up to a weak TK blast from Raziel. Also, I saw that the Soul Reaver shattered when it struck Raziel, so that kinda kills any feat the sword has because its durability seems to suck.
That being said, Mewtwo has displayed feats of much more powerful and destructive TK, for example, leveling Pokemon Mansion while he was supposed to be comatose for gene study. There is a whole movie's worth of feats if that isn't enough.

Raziel does not hit Kain with TK in canon and besides what your seeing is him lifting Kain with TK, nobody said that is not possible, kains not heavy.

"sigh" @ ignorence, Raziel is the sword, the sword is Raziel. Thats the only time it could possibly be destroyed because of temporal paradox. It took a temporal paradox to destroy the soul reaver....other than that by feats is just about as indestructable as other swords on the forums.

I have seen the move a long time ago, I doubt leveling the mansion is his best feat considering all things about Pokemon and how heavy they are, some of them are large and quite solid but all that aside, I am not saying Kain will resist or stay immune against TK or otherwise, simply that it wont be east for M2 considering Kains various forms.

Originally posted by Burning thought

Not PIS or CIS and TK does not disrupt anything for Kain as 'LoK TK works differently to Pokemon'. Comparing TKing a hurricane to Kains mist, with a size difference of around 160km. All youre showing is that it would take barely any effort or gesture to TK it. Almost any type of energy is limited, Mewtwos limit is just too high fr this.

So your saying if somehow him in mist form was separated so half of the mist was lets say 1km away, he would be able to consciously react as mist in two different areas and take in the surrounding as if he were two people. What im driving at here is that he is the mist and the bats but they must always be within a certain area to be controlled and have not been split.

This is all rule 7. stuff, way I see it those move are in M2s learn-pool like how a character can use a weapon not intended for them but still being legible here. Future sight and Disable are still pretty good backup moves. Weather control differs from just air currents, and the other thing that comes out of this is making the mist more visable... well more then it already is. And disable can stop him breaking out of the TK hold.

''TK energy'' is like all energy bars in that it show the limit of how much of this action can be used constantly, ''Tk is limited.'' LoK TK is weaker then pkmn Tk :/ as in the that world his TK skills would put him at the top of the low tier. If you've seen pkmn us TK you'd know that it works the same. Theres no 'pushed' back more then it is broken by the stronger power, in this instance, Mewtwo.

This argument holds less water then your mist to avoid M2 one. First he has to be within range which is low, then he has to attempt to take the blood without M2 getting out of that 4m radius, preferably via teleportation. All this can lead back to your complaint of obvious gestures.

Actually is several different media's there's a range for it. (<- Only if you meant in the whole fiction world, if not ignore that.) Just had to clarify that it wasn't a short range thing. Can change only based on there base amounts, as some are recognised for there HP above others.

Once again, not suggesting he makes a storm to attack Kain (although... 😖hifty: ) only the force needed to make it. An example of a concentrated attack is any variation of that final attack, the one that turned Ash to stone. Think of it how Alex Mercer consumes, he can like Kain do it easily on normal people but not so on bigger opponents until he beats them down. That would mean Kain could go to a boss and just drain them of blood or control anyone's mind, for some reason he cant. And as ive said simple being a psychic pkmn means he has mental resistance, as M2s the best there is in anything psychic.

Feedings unnecessary but he still takes in peoples blood, with doesnt make sense if he doesnt need to feed. Tbh that would of provided evidence in a logical world. But being fiction, a place where zombies need to eat people and vampires with no heartbeat drink blood, (<- Wasnt a reference to LoK just vamps in general) thats not enough to proove it.
Vid 1 is for the 'taken away' Q right, so when its taken off Kain it can come back? You said in the other forum that ''technically destroying his brain, an army, a leg would be irrelvent and unless the molecules of those piecies are completly destroyed through being atomised, kain should logically speaking be able to reform from this whole again.'' Though his heart did not reform. A reasons for this is that removal of a part is irreversible, making that or completely destroying a part ways for him to eg loose his head. Both ways being already mentioned; decapitation and disintegration.
Seemed as if the owner to the overhead voice made those demons attack. Too high a coincidence that they appear the second he/it stops talking.

Yep i found it (through a LOT of stuff >.>😉 and i have an issue with it. Lifting the heavy weigh is not the same as punch strength, sure it can help in the blow but not fully. (Weight-lifter to a boxers punch) and those punches did not look like they were at his full 30ton strength. Speaking of, if he was indeed using 30 ton strength with his 'razor sharp' claws, wouldnt they of done damage in the same way they when Raziel took Kains heart.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Raziel does not hit Kain with TK in canon and besides what your seeing is him lifting Kain with TK, nobody said that is not possible, kains not heavy.

"sigh" @ ignorence, Raziel is the sword, the sword is Raziel. Thats the only time it could possibly be destroyed because of temporal paradox. It took a temporal paradox to destroy the soul reaver....other than that by feats is just about as indestructable as other swords on the forums.

Well, all Raziel did was absorb the essence of the sword after it shattered. What that means is that the sword can have its essence taken from an opponent by shattering the blade that houses it. And it seems to be pretty easy to break the blade.

Also, the TK I was referring to was more like a force blast, not lifting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Srdsvk1OmB0

Originally posted by BloodRain
Not PIS or CIS and TK does not disrupt anything for Kain as 'LoK TK works differently to Pokemon'. Comparing TKing a hurricane to Kains mist, with a size difference of around 160km. All youre showing is that it would take barely any effort or gesture to TK it. Almost any type of energy is limited, Mewtwos limit is just too high fr this.

So your saying if somehow him in mist form was separated so half of the mist was lets say 1km away, he would be able to consciously react as mist in two different areas and take in the surrounding as if he were two people. What im driving at here is that he is the mist and the bats but they must always be within a certain area to be controlled and have not been split.

This is all rule 7. stuff, way I see it those move are in M2s learn-pool like how a character can use a weapon not intended for them but still being legible here. Future sight and Disable are still pretty good backup moves. Weather control differs from just air currents, and the other thing that comes out of this is making the mist more visable... well more then it already is. And disable can stop him breaking out of the TK hold.

''TK energy'' is like all energy bars in that it show the limit of how much of this action can be used constantly, ''Tk is limited.'' LoK TK is weaker then pkmn Tk :/ as in the that world his TK skills would put him at the top of the low tier. If you've seen pkmn us TK you'd know that it works the same. Theres no 'pushed' back more then it is broken by the stronger power, in this instance, Mewtwo.

This argument holds less water then your mist to avoid M2 one. First he has to be within range which is low, then he has to attempt to take the blood without M2 getting out of that 4m radius, preferably via teleportation. All this can lead back to your complaint of obvious gestures.

Actually is several different media's there's a range for it. (<- Only if you meant in the whole fiction world, if not ignore that.) Just had to clarify that it wasn't a short range thing. Can change only based on there base amounts, as some are recognised for there HP above others.

Once again, not suggesting he makes a storm to attack Kain (although... 😖hifty: ) only the force needed to make it. An example of a concentrated attack is any variation of that final attack, the one that turned Ash to stone. Think of it how Alex Mercer consumes, he can like Kain do it easily on normal people but not so on bigger opponents until he beats them down. That would mean Kain could go to a boss and just drain them of blood or control anyone's mind, for some reason he cant. And as ive said simple being a psychic pkmn means he has mental resistance, as M2s the best there is in anything psychic.

Feedings unnecessary but he still takes in peoples blood, with doesnt make sense if he doesnt need to feed. Tbh that would of provided evidence in a logical world. But being fiction, a place where zombies need to eat people and vampires with no heartbeat drink blood, (<- Wasnt a reference to LoK just vamps in general) thats not enough to proove it.
Vid 1 is for the 'taken away' Q right, so when its taken off Kain it can come back? You said in the other forum that ''technically destroying his brain, an army, a leg would be irrelvent and unless the molecules of those piecies are completly destroyed through being atomised, kain should logically speaking be able to reform from this whole again.'' Though his heart did not reform. A reasons for this is that removal of a part is irreversible, making that or completely destroying a part ways for him to eg loose his head. Both ways being already mentioned; decapitation and disintegration.
Seemed as if the owner to the overhead voice made those demons attack. Too high a coincidence that they appear the second he/it stops talking.

Yep i found it (through a LOT of stuff >.>😉 and i have an issue with it. Lifting the heavy weigh is not the same as punch strength, sure it can help in the blow but not fully. (Weight-lifter to a boxers punch) and those punches did not look like they were at his full 30ton strength. Speaking of, if he was indeed using 30 ton strength with his 'razor sharp' claws, wouldnt they of done damage in the same way they when Raziel took Kains heart.

I am showing that thats what it took for him to control air currents, he did not create the hurricane, the air currents did, what he did was manip them. Assuming he would take less time when doing it to Kains mist is fallacy, as theres no reason to think so unless you have logical reasoning?

Certainly, because their all him, do not question how it works since this is all magic and sorcery but they are still all Kain, how he percieves the world through mist form is unknown. Your talking about space and physical limit but Kains soul and concious is what guides the mist, these things are not susceptable to physical distance considering they are not physical. Your talking of a "certain area" can you explain this logic because your still making it sound to me like your claiming Kain himself exists as only part of the mist, or his conciousness is only a piece of it and therefore is suseptable to distance, but the truth is Kain is all of the mist, if its somehow far from all the other particles then he would just take time to combine them again....

A "learn pool" does not exist in a storyline unvierse or in a battle, their just player chosen actions without canon background for M2 to have them. Can you show me disable and how it works? considering M2 powers all come from his mind, and Kain has been shown immune at his weakest to such infilitration of his psyke then its likely he will be immune to this. Especially if he has no physical form anyway e.g. mist.

Him being weaker phyiscally is irrelvent, his TK is more specific and can affect smaller things such as blood cells. M2 cannot.

What makes you think his range is low? its based on TK and a simple gesture, distance seems irrelvent and furthermore if it has a short range then Kain can close the gap with teleportation.

well I dont know what their teleportations range is based on, perhaps the teleport is not magical but in kains case distance is irrelvent as he is relying on magic which in his case is regulated by him, he is not restricted by the weakness of technology in other fictions or mental distance, his teleport is simply a magical case of moving somewhere while ignoring time and space.

Watching the recent videos M2 and Mew actualy Tk blasts when they ferociously try and attack eachother do not seem to do much damage, the area they are in is not completly destroyed by this incredible power M2 is supposed to have and he even has to use shadow balls at some point....makes me belive that perhaps M2 is not as capable as much powerful TK as you belive, perhaps he cannot force all his mental powers into one point.

The answer to most of your examples are gameplay balance, if Alex could absorb anyone with a tap of a button it would be a boring game, just like how kratos in god of war cannot turn every boss to stone or how Kain cannot just mind control them. Canon, facts and feats tell us a lot of these characters who are called "bosses" and are thus immune to some of Kains powers are frail weaklings, not even as resistance or as wise on the ways of blood that the vampires Kain affects are. If an entity does not have stated resistance then it does not have it simply because in-game he has the "boss" title, this is gameplay balance. Being psychic has no reason for him to be resistant against a technique he has not actually faced.

Still taking in peoples blood? there are very few if any cinematics and canon statements that record Kain taking anyones blood, its merely a statement based on vampires generally, e.,g. those who do not have a body to nourish such as Kain after having his heart torn out do not by any manner of logic need to drink something that cannot sustain them. Why do Zombies need to eat people? The heart of darkness is unique, its a vampire artifact and Kain is restrained by an immutable timeline in his own unvierse, in a fair battle which is I assume in this case outside of Nosgoth Kain is not restrained by temporal paradox. Also the hear of Darkness was in Raziels hands and in another dimension, if someone takes a piece of Kain and takes it to another dimension i agree it would be impossible for him to reform it.

But it means the strength is indeed behind Raziels arms, also also what do you mean his punches did not look it? he was punching and kicking at Kain in a maddened anger because he felt violated, theres no reason why he would possibly hold back yet he did zero damage. To answer that final question, Kain was battered and damaged by their fight beforehand, not to mension he just had the soul reaver slashed across his chest, possible that it weakened him.

Originally posted by LLLLLink
Well, all Raziel did was absorb the essence of the sword after it shattered. What that means is that the sword can have its essence taken from an opponent by shattering the blade that houses it. And it seems to be pretty easy to break the blade.

Also, the TK I was referring to was more like a force blast, not lifting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Srdsvk1OmB0

The soul reaver eats souls but the Legacy of Kain timeline is immutable, the sword would cause a paradox if it ate itself which was Raziel therefore it cannot eat itself. So instead of that, it blows up. If a race of extremely powerful vampires fear the sword so much and belive its invulerable and the ravages of thousands of thousands of years have done nothing to it then its not likely easily broken like you see mto believe. its essence is Raziel so no, only Raziel can claim his own soul furthermore, you would have to be able to see souls and be in the spectoral realm to even see the spirit of raziel.

So? this is still irrelvent, no one is saying Kain has defence against being thrown.

How did this reach ten pages? It is very well established that MewTwo rapes the whole thread.

noes shift+1 he's teh overrated joke dur

Originally posted by Burning thought

The logical reason being that a larger mass takes more effort to move then a smaller mass. Manipulation>hold as well.

Hard to find the right way to say what im trying to to make you understand... ok, Kain can move around and see and perceive his surroundings. If the mist was split in two and held in two different areas, would he be able to see both locations at the same time? And as he is all of the mist, if its split up how can he reform from it if hes not all back together?

About that. Several weapons in DMC were not part of the storyline but are in canon use. Same as Soras drive forms and other things that that is based solely on the player. Disable worked in conjunction with psychic. So he can TK and paralyse on one move. Disable has nothing to do with the targets mind, it stops movements/powers.

Not physically, TKally. But M2 can create advanced pokeballs from nothing, and that IS a complex and minute feat.
Because if it was in par with his TK then his TK reach should be the same as his drain reach, the latter is much lower.

Psychic attacks dont need to cause destructive feats, main skill is to mess with the host. As seen with the human statue. Judging by from the concentrated attacks ive seen, that one was not the highest caliber. (Based on the disintegration and destruction feats showing he can when bring that power together) And the shadow balls in their world is the sensible move to use against Mew, type advantage.

Alex cant because of the strength/amount of spines, canon. Think those gods cant all be effected that way. (Read somewhere, but really dont care to look into this game). ''Bosses'' have better resistance then weaklings, but games differ. Does not mean he's resistant to it, merely the staggering IQ with his powers means he can swiftly adapt and form a counter.

Then there are scenes showing that he still needs blood, there is no reason for him to take it if he didn't need it. Literally dozens of reasons for Zombies eating habits :/ fiction my friend is fickle like that. Problem is if that it a part of him is no where near him, how can it reform unless he has very high regeneration feats. He'll have to have regen skills a multitude stronger then Wolverines to grow a head back. (Or body, which ever way it goes.)

Not all of the strength, that's the same as saying Link can punch with the force it takes to lift the infamous pillar. Punch strength not being the same as lift strength. Hmm from what i just said Raziel could of actually been giving it his all (Punch to lift difference makes those blows not as strong as once thought.) but usually a full power hit isnt as swift as those hits. But thats just from what i saw. True... even if in not fully aware of the swords abilities.. none the less im calling PIS on it as the same move should of had the same effects.

Originally posted by BloodRain
The logical reason being that a larger mass takes more effort to move then a smaller mass. Manipulation>hold as well.

Hard to find the right way to say what im trying to to make you understand... ok, Kain can move around and see and perceive his surroundings. If the mist was split in two and held in two different areas, would he be able to see both locations at the same time? And as he is all of the mist, if its split up how can he reform from it if hes not all back together?

About that. Several weapons in DMC were not part of the storyline but are in canon use. Same as Soras drive forms and other things that that is based solely on the player. Disable worked in conjunction with psychic. So he can TK and paralyse on one move. Disable has nothing to do with the targets mind, it stops movements/powers.

Not physically, TKally. But M2 can create advanced pokeballs from nothing, and that IS a complex and minute feat.
Because if it was in par with his TK then his TK reach should be the same as his drain reach, the latter is much lower.

Psychic attacks dont need to cause destructive feats, main skill is to mess with the host. As seen with the human statue. Judging by from the concentrated attacks ive seen, that one was not the highest caliber. (Based on the disintegration and destruction feats showing he can when bring that power together) And the shadow balls in their world is the sensible move to use against Mew, type advantage.

Alex cant because of the strength/amount of spines, canon. Think those gods cant all be effected that way. (Read somewhere, but really dont care to look into this game). ''Bosses'' have better resistance then weaklings, but games differ. Does not mean he's resistant to it, merely the staggering IQ with his powers means he can swiftly adapt and form a counter.

Then there are scenes showing that he still needs blood, there is no reason for him to take it if he didn't need it. Literally dozens of reasons for Zombies eating habits :/ fiction my friend is fickle like that. Problem is if that it a part of him is no where near him, how can it reform unless he has very high regeneration feats. He'll have to have regen skills a multitude stronger then Wolverines to grow a head back. (Or body, which ever way it goes.)

Not all of the strength, that's the same as saying Link can punch with the force it takes to lift the infamous pillar. Punch strength not being the same as lift strength. Hmm from what i just said Raziel could of actually been giving it his all (Punch to lift difference makes those blows not as strong as once thought.) but usually a full power hit isnt as swift as those hits. But thats just from what i saw. True... even if in not fully aware of the swords abilities.. none the less im calling PIS on it as the same move should of had the same effects.

More effort yes, more time? no not necesserily, he is technically manipulating the same things, just with more strength, not necesserily more time.

Ofcourse, if he is all of the mist, then he would see where the mist is from that perspective, as I said we dont know how he can percieve the world at all as mist. Well obviously if all his mist is lost to the winds then he cannot reform until he brings the mist together again.

If they are not part of the story, are not connected to the canon then its likely they are not part of Dantes basic equipment, only his swords and major items are, otherwise Kain could technically use artifacts that he finds in Blood omen 1, but ofcourse they are not consistent equipment. Can you prove this about disable? paralysis and Tk are physical factors, first and formost M2 has never as far as I know disabled "magic", certainly not how it is in Legacy of Kain, therefore that is not going to be disabled, and all of Kains reaver powers would also be immune as they are from his sword, I doubt M2 has disabled a sword, a magic one at that....its not in conjunction with what he has faced. Although I am still of the idea it is a mentla assault, since physical forces like those created by TK only hinder phyiscal movements.

Can you show me him making these pokeballs? how do we know he is creating them just like that, or perhaps he could be teleporting them into his hands? I would like to see the video. Much lower based on what? as I said, TK reach=Blood drain/manip=TK usage.

Stilll my point remains, his Tk is obviously not as powerful as you claim, they do not do much damage at all to the environment despite how ferocious their fight was and in their haste to stop/destroy eachother they even killed ash, two supposedly powerful psychics not dealing hardly any physical damage makes me doubt whether tehy could smash Kain as easily as you claim. Also note that in the vid I watched, every attack from M2 or Mew seemed to destroy the opposing barrier OR even some of their own attacks disapated their own powers. Their reactions were also limited, both Mew and M2 were struck by attacks that are obvious, so their mental speed is not as great as claimed. This is the video I watched:

YouTube video

Thats true, as you said, you brought up a canon reason, the number of spines. There is no such canon statement or logic behind Kain not being able to Mind control. What makes you assume "bosses" have better resistance? you realise the term "boss" is just a gameplay indication that they are stronger than other basic entities and even that can be proven wrong in some games, in the Diablo series, in DMC and in God of war I find that certainly in the higher difficulties the smaller minions can be harder, the bosses can be easier. main point being is that canon does not state these "bosses" are any more able to defend against their blood or mind being assaulted than their underlings.

There are no scenes showing Kain in canon drinking blood, certainly not after losing his heart, him drinking blood when he does not need to state his physical needs since physically he should not be alive is illogical anyway. Depends on the fiction, you brought up zombies but in many fictions I have seen Zombies just do it because they are savagely drawn to, not because they "need" to. I do not talk of regeneration, I am talking about transforming his physical body into mist, including lost piecies and then bringing that together, hes never done it but I am thinking logically based on the LOK fiction, sort of like you can M2 being able to defend against various magical attacks he has not faced from Kain.

Its not the same but not much different, being able to lift a block as heavy as that means Raziel has the strength in his body, now if he sent all that strength into Kain, perhaps more than that because he also has velocity form punches and kicks then Kain will likely be hit harder than even the block. Its more PIS that Kain was damaged by Raziel, not the other way around as Kain not being damaged by Raziel in the chronoplast chamber was an accurate cinematic, not gameplay cutscene and furthermore was not integral to the plot unlike Raziel recieving the heart of Darkness, Kain could have easily got a few scratches from that fight and continued on, hell he even claimed "you almost had me" at the end, some wounds would admit this wheras if he had not been pierced at the end of the fight with Raz, he could not have lost his heart which was indeed major to the plot.

Your argument on MewTwo's reaction time is as lulzy as "lasers are slow because you can see them!"
YouTube video 0:10 MewTwo wins. He levelled an island within seconds of being born. That's enough to kill every member of the other team.

No it isn't.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Your argument on MewTwo's reaction time is as lulzy as "lasers are slow because you can see them!"
YouTube video 0:10 MewTwo wins. He levelled an island within seconds of being born. That's enough to kill every member of the other team.

Since when is Anime canon to anything?

No it isn't.
Yes it is.

Since when is Anime canon to anything?
The anime has always been canon.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Yes it is.

No, no it is not.

Yes, yes it is. 😐

Scream, I don't think you should use anime for pokemon canon due to large amounts of PIS in it.

It's fine for feats, and it is canon.

lol People deciding for themself what's non-canon. 🙄

Yeah. His feats from the movies have always been useable in debates here. Definitely not something that's going to change anytime soon.

Scream made the thread, therefore despite normal rules claiming only video games, he can under his own rules make the anime canon. And smashing an island in 10 seconds is useless, given 10 seconds any of team 1 could probably kill him apart from Kratos assuming your not overexagerating this 10 second number, ill watch your video when I have time.