Sephiroth, Kratos, and Kain v.s. Samus Aran and MewTwo

Started by Q'Anilia20 pages
Originally posted by K1ll3r
No it isn't.

Enough to take out Kain and Sephiroth. Not sure about Kratos, since he seems to have several different versions, all with their own level of durability.

Originally posted by Nemesis X
Since when is Anime canon to anything?

The Pokémon anime is canon. I do not remember how Phantom Miria put it, but it was something about the plot not being canon while the feats used in it are. Stated by the creators.

Originally posted by Phanteros
Scream, I don't think you should use anime for pokemon canon due to large amounts of PIS in it.

How much PIS is there in an island blowing up? PIS or not, it is a power showing by Mewtwo. That will not change. No matter the amount of PIS involved, a power showing is always a power showing.

Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
lol People deciding for themself what's non-canon. 🙄

Yeah. His feats from the movies have always been useable in debates here. Definitely not something that's going to change anytime soon.

Canon = Canon. Resistance is futile 😄

Originally posted by Burning thought
Scream made the thread, therefore despite normal rules claiming only video games, he can under his own rules make the anime canon. And smashing an island in 10 seconds is useless, given 10 seconds any of team 1 could probably kill him apart from Kratos assuming your not overexagerating this 10 second number, ill watch your video when I have time.

It was not ten seconds. It was more like one second. The start was just him spreading fear and destruction. Unless you have facts on how it was required of him to blow up computers, glass, furniture and such in order to blow up the rest of the island. Besides, he proves rapid at massive destruction once more at 1:00 in the video. Not as destructive as the first, larger explosion, but just as rapid and he did not destroy any computers or so before blowing the facility up.

Originally posted by Q'Anilia

It was not ten seconds. It was more like one second. The start was just him spreading fear and destruction. Unless you have facts on how it was required of him to blow up computers, glass, furniture and such in order to blow up the rest of the island. Besides, he proves rapid at massive destruction once more at 1:00 in the video. Not as destructive as the first, larger explosion, but just as rapid and he did not destroy any computers or so before blowing the facility up.

His power escalated quickly over the 10 seconds (which btw is wrong, the video makes it look 10 seconds but it misses out other scenes within that room and even has a scene "before" that moment afterwards.....

its not likely he can call upon that power in an instant, he brought up more and and more power, this is obvious by the fact his energy glow around him, and those in his eyes seem to get more intense.

Originally posted by Burning thought

Not been show taking long to grab anything besides that. :/ then by that all M2 has to start off with is keep his grip on the two pieces.
Hardly anyone in games only use the basic weapons they get.
Disable: 'Releases blue aura that make its opponents unable to move' 'Becomes surrounded by a blue aura, making the opponent completely motionless and renders it under its control.' 'Eyes glow blue and a blue aura appears around it. Any attacks that try to hit it are instantly disintergrated.'
First and foremost Kain hasnt resisted a pkmn attack especially at this magnitude. The reaver still has its powers but will be hard to use if Kain cant hold it, unless he has a scabbard to put that in he's most likely gonna drop it. It only works on the mind if they are to use a mental attack with the mind, that Kain does not have.

1:48 on screampastes vid. And those thing cannot be made by anyone else apart from M2, plus if it was teleported it wouldnt be in a purple light. Lower then his TK reach, show grabbing people further then he's shown draining. Longest in the vid you posted was 4m.

It is that powerful depening of the disired effect. Wanted to destroy things around him he disintegrated metal two times. Wanted to destroy a builden he blew up to large structures. And wanted to attack Mew he used that attack. They have control of their powers, and Mew fled instead of fighting. Then when the fight turned serious (when they went into orbs) a few seconds later the battle ended. In the actual order went; Attack mew, chase mew, clash barriers (that did not do down until...) final move that ended that fight. No attack as pierced the barrier as they were in their barriers clashing against each other for several hits.

I either say boss or stronger entity usually connected to the plot that usually knows about the main character... ill stick to boss. Though i support my claim of bosses being more resistant, i'll give you it as one game logic differs from another. Still doesnt explain why Kain doesn't during a cutscene use one of those powers. For instance using one of those moves to stop Raziel from taking his heart/inflicting any major damage on him.

...So know one knows if he does infact need to feed or not? Someone else's logical idea can be that he feeds because thats how vampires sustain life. (again in general) Feed out of savageness, to fill the empty feeling, to stop the pain of decomposition... whatever it is it all depends on the fiction it comes from. Its a larger stretch to claim your point then mine. M2 being able to defend any attack sent his way and the ways Kain attacks is makes more sense then Kain making a now separate part of him turn into mist and reattach to his body. My claim is based around feats M2 has been shown capable of doing.

Yes he is strong but the energy and force needed to lift the block is not the same that can be produced in a punch. Hard to say which on for sure as that strength as show can easily stab through Kain

Originally posted by Burning thought
its not likely he can call upon that power in an instant

"its not likely" being based on what exactly? What has driven you to this conclusion, this finalizing statement on how his powers work.
I take it you have taken in consideration that he was born roughly thirty seconds to a minute before the explosion.

What feats did Kain accomplish at birth? Kratos? Sephiroth? Samus? I bet they cried, the whole lot of them. Mewtwo destroyed an island.

Originally posted by BloodRain

Punch strength not being the same as lift strength.

Best post this thread.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Not been show taking long to grab anything besides that. :/ then by that all M2 has to start off with is keep his grip on the two pieces.
Hardly anyone in games only use the basic weapons they get.
Disable: 'Releases blue aura that make its opponents unable to move' 'Becomes surrounded by a blue aura, making the opponent completely motionless and renders it under its control.' 'Eyes glow blue and a blue aura appears around it. Any attacks that try to hit it are instantly disintergrated.'
First and foremost Kain hasnt resisted a pkmn attack especially at this magnitude. The reaver still has its powers but will be hard to use if Kain cant hold it, unless he has a scabbard to put that in he's most likely gonna drop it. It only works on the mind if they are to use a mental attack with the mind, that Kain does not have.

1:48 on screampastes vid. And those thing cannot be made by anyone else apart from M2, plus if it was teleported it wouldnt be in a purple light. Lower then his TK reach, show grabbing people further then he's shown draining. Longest in the vid you posted was 4m.

It is that powerful depening of the disired effect. Wanted to destroy things around him he disintegrated metal two times. Wanted to destroy a builden he blew up to large structures. And wanted to attack Mew he used that attack. They have control of their powers, and Mew fled instead of fighting. Then when the fight turned serious (when they went into orbs) a few seconds later the battle ended. In the actual order went; Attack mew, chase mew, clash barriers (that did not do down until...) final move that ended that fight. No attack as pierced the barrier as they were in their barriers clashing against each other for several hits.

I either say boss or stronger entity usually connected to the plot that usually knows about the main character... ill stick to boss. Though i support my claim of bosses being more resistant, i'll give you it as one game logic differs from another. Still doesnt explain why Kain doesn't during a cutscene use one of those powers. For instance using one of those moves to stop Raziel from taking his heart/inflicting any major damage on him.

...So know one knows if he does infact need to feed or not? Someone else's logical idea can be that he feeds because thats how vampires sustain life. (again in general) Feed out of savageness, to fill the empty feeling, to stop the pain of decomposition... whatever it is it all depends on the fiction it comes from. Its a larger stretch to claim your point then mine. M2 being able to defend any attack sent his way and the ways Kain attacks is makes more sense then Kain making a now separate part of him turn into mist and reattach to his body. My claim is based around feats M2 has been shown capable of doing.

Yes he is strong but the energy and force needed to lift the block is not the same that can be produced in a punch. Hard to say which on for sure as that strength as show can easily stab through Kain

Two piecies? we dont even know if he can hold two weather currents at once constantly.....certainly not while fending off anyone else and your still underestimating Kains reaction to transforming to and from mist, it takes hardly any time at all, as soon as M2 attempts to move one part away from the other against Kains will (if its even possible) then Kain would reform.

Can you show me the source for this disable text? official I mean, I would like to read it myself, and it says nothing in there about stopping them from using powers....

Kain cant hold it? based on what? if he cant move then its still in his hands and then he would just teleport to escape again. Those pokeballs look like they were just teleported, more likely than that he created intricate balls from simply nothing, a bit farfetched because then he could technically do the same with other machines and matter ,hes never done so.....whats your logic behind him creating them from thin air?

They summon the barriers again several times, after one of the clashes Mews barrier is gone and he gets a shadow ball to the head which sends him flying, then If I remember corectly mew blasts M2 who ends up in a crator with his shield diminshed which then disapears, then they both resummon their barriers and continue to fight again.

Its PIS, thats what explains it, how would Raziel take the heart of Darkness if Kain just slowed time and cut his head off? he couldnt, what if Kain just drained him of blood or because he is a wraith took his soul? he would have ruined the plot. Not to mension Kain was not trying to kill Raziel.

kain does not "sustain life" because he is alive simply because he is the scion of balance which is why he lives without the heart of darkness e.g. the magical object that resurrected him. Without it he "should" by all facts within LOK be dead, but because he is the scion he can live through it....Kain has been shown capable of transforming his physical body into mist and then back into physical again, piecies being severed should make no difference as it is nothing physical that allows Kain to manipulate mist.

Lifting the block takes leverage, e.g. him under the rock and pushing against it and his own strength. Punching Kain takes tense and swift hits with velocity, chances are they are even harder than lifting the rock considering velocity and anger, its more likely Raziel will use all his strength to hit Kain, wheras lifting the rock he would use "just enough" to move it.

Originally posted by Rapidash
"its not likely" being based on what exactly? What has driven you to this conclusion, this finalizing statement on how his powers work.
I take it you have taken in consideration that he was born roughly thirty seconds to a minute before the explosion.

What feats did Kain accomplish at birth? Kratos? Sephiroth? Samus? I bet they cried, the whole lot of them. Mewtwo destroyed an island.

Becuase he has never done so with such power and even summoning his weak barrier is limited to a second of calling. He was not born the same way a baby is, he is uncontrolled, scared and confused sure and ignorant, perhaps a reason why his powers are even more powerful in those scenes than when he is adult as he now has more control, perhaps uncontrolled release of such power caused such destruction.

Kain, Kratos and all of these characters did not awake in a vat at pretty much the peak of their power....

God, this thread is just lulz now. As far as I'm concerned, Mewtwo solos. Good day.

Originally posted by LLLLLink
God, this thread is just lulz now. As far as I'm concerned, Mewtwo solos. Good day.

Everyone that posted here save one agrees.

Actually... I disagree also!

Samus solos, no need for mewtwo.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Becuase he has never done so with such power and even summoning his weak barrier is limited to a second of calling. He was not born the same way a baby is, he is uncontrolled, scared and confused sure and ignorant, perhaps a reason why his powers are even more powerful in those scenes than when he is adult as he now has more control, perhaps uncontrolled release of such power caused such destruction.

Kain, Kratos and all of these characters did not awake in a vat at pretty much the peak of their power....

So the foundation of your inferiority claim is that he grew weaker as he grew older? Intriguing claim.

They still cried.

Originally posted by Burning thought

Weather currents>small amount of mist. What we don't know is if he can separate like that. And mist is mist, wont take much to separate.

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Disable_(move) go to 'anime' and click show, those are ways the move can be used in the anime. Primary effect of it is to stop using powers. Wont hold as he cant control his body, a hand with no control can not grip a sword.

No teleport looks anything like that, or that slow. The balls are different to normal technology seeing as they can follow orders. The whole island complex was made by Mewtwo so its not out of his league to make something that small that easily.

This is the order of barriers; Mewtwo uses one to stop null the damage from crater then turns it off to talk to Mew. Then they both used barrier to smash each other.
Maybe Kain was in plain shock, I mean he was in fear before his heart was torn out... Not the point.

Why does he use blood drain to drink after? And why would he use it if he cant feed? His physical body is not severed limbs. There is a huge difference.

Strength use in 'Arms, back and legs' is more rounded then in a punch, not drawing as much from the back and legs. Cant say Raziel was in a 'full powered state of rage' from only 3 hits... only that he hit him, that is all. It does not show that Raz has amazing punching force, a top weight lifter can have the same punch as maybe an above average boxer.

Originally posted by Rapidash
So the foundation of your inferiority claim is that he grew weaker as he grew older? Intriguing claim.

They still cried.

grew more controlled as he grew older, perhaps he has the power but considering he is older he is more restrained by himself and may not even know how to release such an outburst of unrestrained power.

True but unlike M2 they all grew up to become the lords and masters of their worlds so not a bad trade....

Originally posted by BloodRain
Weather currents>small amount of mist. What we don't know is if he can separate like that. And mist is mist, wont take much to separate.

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Disable_(move) go to 'anime' and click show, those are ways the move can be used in the anime. Primary effect of it is to stop using powers. Wont hold as he cant control his body, a hand with no control can not grip a sword.

No teleport looks anything like that, or that slow. The balls are different to normal technology seeing as they can follow orders. The whole island complex was made by Mewtwo so its not out of his league to make something that small that easily.

This is the order of barriers; Mewtwo uses one to stop null the damage from crater then turns it off to talk to Mew. Then they both used barrier to smash each other.
Maybe Kain was in plain shock, I mean he was in fear before his heart was torn out... Not the point.

Why does he use blood drain to drink after? And why would he use it if he cant feed? His physical body is not severed limbs. There is a huge difference.

Strength use in 'Arms, back and legs' is more rounded then in a punch, not drawing as much from the back and legs. Cant say Raziel was in a 'full powered state of rage' from only 3 hits... only that he hit him, that is all. It does not show that Raz has amazing punching force, a top weight lifter can have the same punch as maybe an above average boxer.

He never held two weather currents though....mist is mist true but Kains mist is a living entity who has not been so much blown or distorted by the wind, it seems almost like the mist is still Kains body and throwing it around will be the same as throwing him around, only ofc it would be a vampiric shape made out of mist being thrown.

Nothing said about disabling powers....only disabling movements and in the game, which is considered more canon at least on this forum says only one move is disabled and usually the one last used, this is also for a duration. Also how long did M2 use disable for? can you show me your answer rather than state please?

Assuming Kain is not already holding his sword, which is ridiculous, if he is already holding it which he would be he would not be able to move to drop it or open his fingers...therefore he could escape even the "disable" effect.

Thats not a good argument really is it I mean just because other teleporters are faster does not mean this could not be teleportation since they still just suddenly appeared. But you just claimed their extremely complciated and you still have not answered how they could have come out of thin air. Considering his plan was to steal pokemon and make superior versions its likely they were already made and he teleported them, it seems less farfetched imo.

You sure, from the last video I saw it looked like M2s barrier was fluttering out and weakened and disapeared from too much damage, same with Mew....
Kain being in plain shock does not really make sense as its not in his character, and shock at what exactly? he was in pain but still, he could have easily killed Raziel with one or two different spells from the beginning if he wanted to, but as I said, PIS.

He does not use it in a cutscene, he has the ability still probably just to do what I am suggesting, rip open his enemies, also the reaver does not just take souls, it can absorb blood, for all we know its for the hell of it but its not to keep alive his completly dead and heartless body which exists by fact from the developers after the heart only because he is the scion of balance. Severed limbs, attached, what is the physical difference that you are trying to claim would stop Kain from simply mist forming? there is no logic to say otherwise, only to say its likely.

Kain was still unharmed from Raziel going all out, and him only hitting Kain 3 times does not negate the fact he hated Kain and wanted to kill him for his violation, also your back can go into a punch depending on your swing, Raz still has said strength and Kain was completly unharmed.

Originally posted by Burning thought
grew more controlled as he grew older, perhaps he has the power but considering he is older he is more restrained by himself and may not even know how to release such an outburst of unrestrained power.

True but unlike M2 they all grew up to become the lords and masters of their worlds so not a bad trade....

So what proof do you have that his starting powers were temporary? Since you must be basing it on something.

Mewtwo had the world in the palm of his hand, if you by any chance have forgotten how the movie transpired. He could have brought it to ruin, but chose not to.

Originally posted by Rapidash
So what proof do you have that his starting powers were temporary? Since you must be basing it on something.

Mewtwo had the world in the palm of his hand, if you by any chance have forgotten how the movie transpired. He could have brought it to ruin, but chose not to.

When did I say they were temporary?

But didnt....also he could never have ruled it like Kratos and Kain can, I guess in Sephiroths case however he went through with his plan of trying to destroy the world and failed.

You are basing, for whatever reason is beyond me, your most recent argument that Mewtwo was at his peak when he first was born and lessened in power as he learned to control it. I want to know on what you are basing this theory.

Originally posted by Burning thought
may not even know how to release such an outburst of unrestrained power.

Originally posted by Rapidash
You are basing, for whatever reason is beyond me, your most recent argument that Mewtwo was at his peak when he first was born and lessened in power as he learned to control it. I want to know on what you are basing this theory.

Because as a "new born" as you put it he was new to the world, scared, emotially angered, his emotions were obviously extreme and his psychic powers obvioulsy coming from the same place as these emotions would be equelly pushed, M2 used all his power he could muster to destroy those around him. Adult M2 would not do this, because he is hardly ever if its even possible of being scared and afraid and in such a inescure state, it looks to me like young M2 let an outburst without thinking of consequences sort of like how human children can jump into something or off a ledge without looking to see how high it is, whats underneath etc

M2 did the same, he let loose as much anger, and psychic power as he possibly could, M2 as he is now would never do it because he is restrained, its unlikely restrained power can ever be as powerful as unrestrained.

Mewtwo was calm when he was born. Completely calm. He sat quietly, listened, reasoned with the scientists. When he then realized their intentions with the project, he was angered, as would anyone be. Being newly born has nothing to do with his anger.

So what are you basing your statement that he used all the powers he could muster? He turned his head left, blew up a couple of computers. Turned his head right and blew up some more. He put no strain behind his moves and for the majority of the 'battle' he was completely calm.

We have seen Mewtwo angry. We have seen Mewtwo at fatigue. We have seen him exert power. He was barely even angry after his birth. Merely frustrated that they looked at him as a project and as a second-best option rather than as a Pokémon or a person. If you want to see Mewtwo emotional, watch the second movie.

What else do you got? I mean, other than your talk about renegade emotions and giving out all the power he could muster. He was not even panting when Giovanni came for him. He was if possible more awake and vigorated than before the battle.

Originally posted by Rapidash
Mewtwo was calm when he was born. Completely calm. He sat quietly, listened, reasoned with the scientists. When he then realized their intentions with the project, he was angered, as would anyone be. Being newly born has nothing to do with his anger.

So what are you basing your statement that he used all the powers he could muster? He turned his head left, blew up a couple of computers. Turned his head right and blew up some more. He put no strain behind his moves and for the majority of the 'battle' he was completely calm.

We have seen Mewtwo angry. We have seen Mewtwo at fatigue. We have seen him exert power. He was barely even angry after his birth. Merely frustrated that they looked at him as a project and as a second-best option rather than as a Pokémon or a person. If you want to see Mewtwo emotional, watch the second movie.

What else do you got? I mean, other than your talk about renegade emotions and giving out all the power he could muster. He was not even panting when Giovanni came for him. He was if possible more awake and vigorated than before the battle.

Calm until the scientists made him realise they were using him and he built up in rage. Either that or M2 is no more powerful older than he was when first awake. Where does your assumption that he got stronger come from? from feats his weak little attacks against Mew hardly did anything to the humans, pokemon and the surrounding area and thats both of them visciously going at it.

Obviously he went from anger to anger, rising as did his use of powers, from computer smashing to a final climax of island busting which explains why he is fine when Giovani arrives, he had spent his rage, all makes perfect sense.

I'd like to point out, MewTwo maintained his *world encompassing* storm for the entire battle with Mew with no extra effort. Kain's mist will get him where? 😐 TK'd and seperated beyond his own control, and thus, destroyed.

Originally posted by Burning thought

Whats so hard about two currents to a whole hurricane... Hasnt been distorted because Kain IS the mist so a small breeze wont separate, an overwhelming TK will. So now youre saying its less misty and more Kain? Does it matter what shape its in? If its mist it can be separated.

Originally posted by Q'Anilia The Pokémon anime is canon. I do not remember how Phantom Miria put it, but it was something about the plot not being canon while the feats used in it are. Stated by the creators.

^ Canon. ''The user stops the opponent from attacking.'' attacks 'are' powers.
Since you asked so nicely;
YouTube video
1:05. No movement and in pain.

'Grip' is something he cant do without control of the hand. With the muscles, tendons and nerves being unused the hand would go limp. Try hold something with a loose hand.
Pkmn world is different to others, anything teleported doesn't fade in. By they way they work they cant be made by normal means, which leads to his powers. Yeah, im positive. Leading to the last attack each barrier was used as an offensively, hence the blast and discharge.

''You... No - Raziel- (...) -I didn't-'' *stab* especiallt the shocked look when saying 'i didnt part' that sounded scared.
Im guessing its stated somewhere that without the heart he doesnt need to feed? Actually if you want to throw around logic then what you said is illogical. Eg if his powers come from he mind, and is now not connected to his arm. Unless his arm can turn itself into mist?

3 mid high hits, id be worried if he was harmed from that, doubt he was going all out if he decided to stop or not use a sword. The back is used in 90% of punches, at least a good one. Im pointing out that it isnt needed as much as when lifting.