Originally posted by Rapidash
He looks angry? You mean his eyes? They look the same every time you see him, excluding his period of torture during Mewtwo Returns. Take a look at this video for example. Can you at any point in the movie claim that he does not look angry?My point is that Mewtwo always looks angry. There are points in that movie when he is amused, surprised, sad, angry and happy but he looks angry during each one of those times. Bottom line is that Mewtwo is not angry, just because he looks angry. Anger is his default appearance, even when he is indifferent. So since we can not depend on his appearance to tell, we must depend on his tone of voice.
Before Mewtwo went to train with Giovanni, he showed no signs of shadow attacks or anything like that. It is likely that he learnt it during his time with his so called partner. It is however very farfetched to claim that Mewtwo dropped in firepower as he grew in control. This mostly because he is seen to use the same attack to destroy Giovanni's Headquarters that he used against Giovanni's Lab. In Mewtwo Returns, the crater he form at the end is larger than both Giovanni's Headquarter and the Lab in the first movie.
For whom? Seems unlikely? You have not seen the movie, have you? Mewtwo talk to himself all the time. In both the first and the second movie. And when there is no one around, it is even more reasonable to think that it is true since he has no reason to lie to himself. When he stand above the ruin, he clarify that it was a demonstration of what they have created.
I myself find it more unlikely that Mewtwo would lie to himself when there is no one around, than that what he was doing was an actual demonstration of his power. It is more likely that he wanted the last things the scientist to see was what dangerous forces they had been meddling in.
I have bought the movie and if you want to watch it, I can only suggest you to do the same.
I dont mean physically, I meant with his actions, the recklessly violent way he seems to shatter things, if all he did was blow up the island straight away then maybe i would not think he is angry, just letting off some power but in this case I think he has anger, some sadness and annoyence in him for sure.
So there are feats then for M2 to suggest he has such power later on, would have been easier to show them rather than argue his power level?
I have seen it once when it was first released. His anger/annoyence at them could easily have lead to his claim of it being a demonstration still.
Him speaking to himself does not mean everything he says is literal, he could be implying something that he would understand, for example in this case I think he was angered at the scientists, annoyed at their use of him and destroyed them and he justified his actions to himself by calling it a demonstration that they encouraged in their foolishness.
"sigh" well ill not buy a movie to prove a point, thats like buying a game and playing it just to see if someone is telling the truth about a specific point in a debate, silly.
Originally posted by BloodRain
Either way it'll end with us on opposite ends ^^;The same way he holds anything else. For these feats it would be TK holding the water molecules in the mist, proven he can do when he did with the storm and the water. Not sure how you cant see how manipulating a hurricane cant lead to holding a small portion of mist.
In the world its mentioned in attacks are powers, even if M2 doesn't know what the opponent can do Disable will null it. Not a concious movement. More like a pain/stress reflex in the body. Like getting a static shock will make your body react with out your control. Doesn't matter if Kain is stronger it M2 can just change the power needed to disable him. (Same as lifting a pkmn then putting more into it to lift something 20x heavier.) Doubt his TK will help him much, and physically breaking out would not happen. He'd have to have strength above M2s TK strength, something that manipulating something as heavy as a hurricane. [Still cant believe how heavy they are]
Power of M2 combined with the effect of disable would lead to those results. Showing pain is an involuntary response cause by the body (Said above ^)
Not necessarily as M2 has shown us that he can lift that while Kain has not shown anything to prove otherwise. That sounds similar to many other statements of people eg: ''The reason im alive is to stop blah blah blah...'' <- wont stop this guy from needing to eat. I'll need to see this statement.
The mind is still a stream of conciousness formed by the brain. Kains mist is not 100% the same as normal mist as you have mentioned, especially the fact that he can he can kill in tangible ways... If he was actual mist he wouldnt be restricted to the ground either. Only way that the reattachment is logical is IF Kain holds the part that fell off then becomes mist, which still doesnt explain how he attaches it while being mist. ^only fairly logical, so if his head was gone hed be stuck. (Weather system?)
To a point that a high angry move would pierce Kain. Ant that was the third game right, by the fight at the 'heart of darkness' scene they're alot more even then before.
[Cant stop thinking Nightcrawler when i see Raziel >_<😉
Probably.
What water? youve claimed the storm but he has not shown to "hold" the storm like your claiming he is just going to hold Kains mist, hold kains molecules not that this has actually been shown, probably assumed I take it?
Now your assuming again, if M2 has never halted magical powers which are very different than a fire breath or a mental attack then he cannot be assumed to be able to stop Kains magic, furthermore your still in the wrong as "attacks" sound like a no limits fallacy your making as being able to stop "all attacks" is illogical, I doubt if Galactus from Marvel was the target of this move that he would be restricted in any way.
Breaking out of M2 TK should be easy as his TK strength would have to match Kains weight or slightly above to lift him, if Kain Tked M2s mental lock on Kain then it would be broken as Kain can also lift much more than his own weight, if M2 attempts to add more strength then M2 was still thwarted at first giving Kain time to teleport unless you can prove he can instantly add more strength to TK?
This means Kain or this man was not actually held fast, if their body can move still....involountry or not. If your argument is that this power stops you from thinking or mentally moving your limbs then this has to be proven and would not work on the mentally protected Kain.
The fact he has no heart or physical reason to need blood is the showing that makes it obvious he does not drink because he needs to just like M2 lifting up heavier objects than a basket would be the obvious fact that means he would not struggle with it. Q/A with Amy Herring, he is alive simply because he is the scion of balance, otherwise his body should be dead. Here is the Q/A:
http://www.thelostworlds.net/Defiance/Question_and_Answer_with_Amy_Hennig.html
Which does not exist when Kain is made out of mist, but Kains soul does which is where this conciousness comes from. Kains body is also technically dead, no blood, no heart, no physical brainwaves but it comes from his soul which is what most Vampires are powerful in. Who says he is restricted to the ground? You seem to be confusing physical mental functions with what Kain is, non physical, him holding a piece of himself is irrelvent to someone who is not alive physically but spiritually, his body that he animates and transforms into mist would still be his body even if its in piecies.
Their stronger by far near the end of the last game, I still dont know how you think that negates my point....
Originally posted by Burning thought
"sigh" well ill not buy a movie to prove a point, thats like buying a game and playing it just to see if someone is telling the truth about a specific point in a debate, silly.
It is a good movie, one I do not regret owning. That is the only reason I suggested you should buy it. I do not really care what you want to prove or not, since this we are discussing right here is nothing but interpretations and one not more factual than the other.
Owning the movie, watching it time and time again will not tell anyone anything. I know, because I have watched it and I pretty much watch it at least once a month.
He loses anyway, its a hard enough fight against Kain, Kain alos has Sephiroth, both of them can TK, M2 has not fought from what I have been shown as evidence two TK powers at the same time, nor has he used TK himself while being thrown around the place.....
Sephiroth could just be the support and cast all the FF spells, all the defences, he can call meteor, shield and heal Kain if required.
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
It is canon, and in the games a stat of 130 allows Machamp to easily move a mountain with one hand. 😐 MewTwo has a stat of 154.
lolz gameplay mechanics
He loses anyway, its a hard enough fight against Kain, Kain alos has Sephiroth, both of them can TK, M2 has not fought from what I have been shown as evidence two TK powers at the same time, nor has he used TK himself while being thrown around the place.....Actually he has, and he could easily overpower and entirely turn off the abilities of all of the other team.
Not by feats, by feats he can attempt to stop the other team from moving, althoguh all of them can teleport so you kno....hes got no control over magic which both of them use. Kain is immune to mental thought and Sephiroths willpower allowed him to cheat death and manipulate holy, I doubt M2 is going to stop him since M2 best is against a few defenceless pokemon.
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
It is canon, and in the games a stat of 130 allows Machamp to easily move a mountain with one hand. 😐 MewTwo has a stat of 154.
Where's your evidence that it's canon? Don't you even dare answer "go watch Pokemon" or whatever BS you're thinking of saying that will dodge my question like you do to the others everytime.
Originally posted by Burning thought
Water to use on Charizards flames. M2: Manipulated; a hurricane, water, electricity, and people (pkmn too). Matter; Gas/Liquid, liquid, plasma, solid. Effort; Small, none, none, none. Of any of the assumptions we've made this is not at the top. As we've seen that he can he has manipulated matter the same as mist, manipulation without moving is basically being held in one place. 'Holds Kains molecules', to a guy who does what he does. Hmm...
No im saying. Which of Kains magic is something thats completely out of his world? No a powerful enough 'something' would get though, that'll have to be stronger then M2s TK. Galactus from which universe? lol Thats a different matter.
Matching Kains weight would be to lift him, not talking about just lifting. TK holding has more power in it then mere lifting. Putting more power into his TK is precisely what he did when he disabled that guy, hence his hand making a 'grip' motion. If for some unknown reason Kain does escape, the next TK would be even stronger. But that wont be needed.
The man was not held fast, M2 wasnt in any rush, that's why he slowly tightened his grip. I already said it wasn't mentally.
What i ment by that was that saying -He has no heart so he doesnt need blood- isnt so convincing in the vampire media world, seeing as they should be dead anyway. In truth 'allows him to survive.' means he can continue what he's doing without the artefact, not that he no longer needs blood. Unless it was taken out of gameplay too.
Did Kain need to feed constantly pre-heart loss?
Exactly, his concious stems from his mist-like form, that has no connection to a severed limb. Living dead is more like it. His body is partially functional, or he'd start to rot. Point being that a limb that is no longer part of him wont turn to mist.
Showing that those claws and strength are enough to beat Kain.
Originally posted by Nemesis X-Accurate physics apply.
I'm talking about the anime here, not what a pokedex said in the games.
Originally posted by BloodRain
Water to use on Charizards flames. M2: Manipulated; a hurricane, water, electricity, and people (pkmn too). Matter; Gas/Liquid, liquid, plasma, solid. Effort; Small, none, none, none. Of any of the assumptions we've made this is not at the top. As we've seen that he can he has manipulated matter the same as mist, manipulation without moving is basically being held in one place. 'Holds Kains molecules', to a guy who does what he does. Hmm...No im saying. Which of Kains magic is something thats completely out of his world? No a powerful enough 'something' would get though, that'll have to be stronger then M2s TK. Galactus from which universe? lol Thats a different matter.
Matching Kains weight would be to lift him, not talking about just lifting. TK holding has more power in it then mere lifting. Putting more power into his TK is precisely what he did when he disabled that guy, hence his hand making a 'grip' motion. If for some unknown reason Kain does escape, the next TK would be even stronger. But that wont be needed.
The man was not held fast, M2 wasnt in any rush, that's why he slowly tightened his grip. I already said it wasn't mentally.What i ment by that was that saying -He has no heart so he doesnt need blood- isnt so convincing in the vampire media world, seeing as they should be dead anyway. In truth 'allows him to survive.' means he can continue what he's doing without the artefact, not that he no longer needs blood. Unless it was taken out of gameplay too.
Did Kain need to feed constantly pre-heart loss?Exactly, his concious stems from his mist-like form, that has no connection to a severed limb. Living dead is more like it. His body is partially functional, or he'd start to rot. Point being that a limb that is no longer part of him wont turn to mist.
Showing that those claws and strength are enough to beat Kain.
So he can move liquid, but hes not held it still, he cant just hold it there from what I have seen, hes done whats effectively throwing a bucket of water only instead of a bucket of wood he has one of psychic energy, you cant hold Kain in it because he would have to hold all the molecules of vapour, this you cannot prove he can do. Its a pretty big one, your claiming that just because M2 has tossed water and sent off airflows to make a hurricane, he can hold Kains vapourous body in two seperate places at once when hes yet to hold a molecule yet. Theres nothing thats conclusive that we know to determine this as fact.
Stronger than M2 TK?, were talking about disable here, not TK, ofc the problem your having in grasping why this disable will be useless to at least Kain is that Kain is immune to mental manipulations, and physical manip cannot stop magical since restraining someone does not cut them off from a magic source, and if it did it would not in M2 world as he does not know of magic or how it works, considering M2 only uses psychic power we can assume Kain is immune to disable, Sephiroth probably as well. And magic is out of M2 understand afak, he simply has not encounted the very sorcery that makes up Kains arsenal, you cant assume something will be disabled when the thing doing the disabling has come to nothing like it.
It looks to me that guy was just lifted up and held there, what makes you think M2 did anything other than that? I think your forgetting who your talking about here, you claim its not mental when in fact M2 power is all mental, he doesnt use magic does he......
They should be dead but Kain was resurrected by the heart understand? which is why he was alive in the first place, through sorcery. Now the only reason he is alive is, as the source claims "his nature as the scion of balance" nothing to do with blood which would be illogical not just in real life but within the actual fiction itself. Feeding in that game was the way Kain gained health, a player could in gameplay ignore drinking blood entirely which is what I often did, because its more profitable to allow the reaver to drink the blood.
His concious stems from his soul, the mist has no brain or synapse system. And explain "connection" because it sounds like your talking about physical contact again, once again this is irrelvent.
Well we dont know how much stronger Raziel is, he never gets much of a boost but eating souls of his brothers likely does make him more powerful. Based on facts, Kains heart being torn out is either because he is weakened by the battle and the reaver slash or PIS. We know that by the cinematic in SR 2 kain can survive without a scratch from about 30+ tons of force, give or take a few tons if your theory on Raziels punches being weaker than what he has lifted.
Originally posted by Burning thought
Manipulation is making something you control move, no movement = held still. The proof has been made already, and again hurricane>small amount of mist. Saying Mewtwo can't TK him as mist is pointless. (Especially as you've acknowledged before that he can.)
TK refers to manipulating an object, Psychic and Disable both are classed as TK. No im not having any problem here as Disables target is not anything mental. Stops him physically, and stops him from using powers. No going around it. And M2 can use many different types of moves, disable being classes as 'normal' not psychic. Trying to claim that magic is out of M2s understanding then so is disable to Kain, or even TK as Kain hasnt been attacked by it before.
May need to look again as it was obvious that he was in pain, unable to resist or pretty much do anything. Because pkmn dont have to know moves based on there type and stats. Those explosive and destructive moves also come from his mind, but do they effect the mind? No, if effects what its designed to effect. How many times has Kain resisted a strong TK?
Nothing officially was said about the blood, only that hes still alive. Oh i was talking about non-gameplay kain, as that could end this blood talk.
Any connection. If this mist-regen feat was true then when he turns to mist so would the Heart... if there was in fact a connection to severed parts.
Or that Raziel outmatched him. And without specific maths i can say his strength was 30tons as you said earlier, taking away (From that scene.) most of the lif by the legs and most of the the back. Then Not using full arm strength in the blows would make that a max 10ton force... if that.
Originally posted by Nemesis X
Almost everybody in the Anime forums.
Funny how wrong almost everybody can be in the Anime forums. What everybody in the Anime forum is probably failing at is understanding the multiple canons that exist in the Pokémon franchise. Unlike common franchises where there exist manga, anime, TCG, video games and more, in Pokémon's case all styles exist in correlation to a certain extent.
The anime is canon. The men behind Pokémon has stated this themselves, along with the sidenote that the Japanese version of the anime is the most accurate one.