Sephiroth, Kratos, and Kain v.s. Samus Aran and MewTwo

Originally posted by BloodRain
Manipulation is making something you control move, no movement = held still. The proof has been made already, and again [B]hurricane>small amount of mist. Saying Mewtwo can't TK him as mist is pointless. (Especially as you've acknowledged before that he can.)

TK refers to manipulating an object, Psychic and Disable both are classed as TK. No im not having any problem here as Disables target is not anything mental. Stops him physically, and stops him from using powers. No going around it. And M2 can use many different types of moves, disable being classes as 'normal' not psychic. Trying to claim that magic is out of M2s understanding then so is disable to Kain, or even TK as Kain hasnt been attacked by it before.

May need to look again as it was obvious that he was in pain, unable to resist or pretty much do anything. Because pkmn dont have to know moves based on there type and stats. Those explosive and destructive moves also come from his mind, but do they effect the mind? No, if effects what its designed to effect. How many times has Kain resisted a strong TK?

Nothing officially was said about the blood, only that hes still alive. Oh i was talking about non-gameplay kain, as that could end this blood talk.

Any connection. If this mist-regen feat was true then when he turns to mist so would the Heart... if there was in fact a connection to severed parts.

Or that Raziel outmatched him. And without specific maths i can say his strength was 30tons as you said earlier, taking away (From that scene.) most of the lif by the legs and most of the the back. Then Not using full arm strength in the blows would make that a max 10ton force... if that. [/B]

I ackknowledged he could before I realised that Tking a molecule and vapours is very different to moving air currents, kicking up a storm is a TK feat based on large size, although levels of power in TK also go minute, and from what has been shown, M2 cannot factually be proven to have to actually affect molecules or vapour, certainly not to the degree you think he will.

Telekinetic force is not just manipulating the object, its manipulating it physically, like lifting a box, a person etc, holding a entity would have no possible reason for them to be able to use powers that does not require them to make movements. Disable is based on mental background which obviously exists in LoK, unlike how Magic which is what kains spells come from does not exist in M2 recollection.

M2 can only do several things, he can use TK which is telekinetic force, e.g. physical barriers and effects having someone captured physically makes no influence on an entities abilities or spells unless they needed to move to do them, the only other one M2 can do is a mental assault where he affects the mind, thats the only avenue he could walk if he could somehow stop an entity from being able to use its powers. In that case, Kain is immune as he has resisted in his weakest form a powerful mentalist.

In non gameplay canon Kain has never actually drunk blood, nor has had it stated about him certainly not since his heart was torn out, since it was not long in canon since after doing that that it was the end of the game.

Not in his universe as time is immutable, things happen the way they would always have happened which is another reason why Kain could never be defeated in his own universe, I realise this fight is not in his own unvierse but what I am pointing out is that even if Kain could mist reform his heart which I dont thnk he could because as I said, it was a dimension away by the time he awoke as Raziel sent him through the gateway, he would have also lost the heart as it was used on Yanos, although technically the heart was not naturally his own, it was just the sorcery that kept him alive.

Why the hell would he lose as much as 20 tons just because he is not using his legs in pushing the block? makes no sense by any logic. And he does kick Kain as well in the same fight, it was part of a combo.

Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
lol People deciding for themself what's non-canon. 🙄

edit: I love how people start going "ITS NOT CANON!!!1" to use as some kind of scapegoat every time things are going in Mewtwo's favor. 😂 Fanboys.

I think many are just used to anime not being canon when it is a game by origin and go straight for the conclusion that because it is anime it is by default not canon.

Originally posted by Burning thought

Can make air move, raise water molecules, hold a human, push back electricity, but holding mist is so far out of his abilities? Literally impossible claim. Clouds are a harder feat to move then mist, but he did it effortlessly.

Disable made him rise into the air as the user 'controls their body'. The pkmn attack existing in LoK? First its a normal type move, no mental mentioned. Second Magic isnt far off as most of his magic can be reproduced in this world. Third, the move doesnt need to know is he user knowshow the targets moves work.
As i was saying, Kains resistance to TK, when was that shown?

Yeah it makes no influence unless its actually stated to do so. And it is. Maybe LoK people try to use a mental attack to stop Kain from moving, somehow im guessing they havnt, but it makes no difference as move in the pkmn world work differently. (Yes i see he has mental resistance, even if its not relevant right now.)

Pretty much all that was needed really :/

Great, now i have to read up on LoK to fully make sense of that paragraph. But assuming Kain can forcefully turn a severed part into mist, then assuming that when he reforns the part will be attached with no damage whatsoever. Very questionable how you can believe in this but not how a storm TKer cant hold mist -,- out of all that has been said, the mist-regen is the least believable.

Lets say for example purposes that lifting uses 35% arms 30% legs and 35% body , and a punch is 60% arms 20% legs and 20% body. 35% of 30tons is 10tons which makes up the arms in the punch, making the max of whole body 16tons. Legs were hardly used in the blow, body not being properly put into the move. 2tons from those added to the 10, so around 12tons. Then that it wasn't a full power hit, 80% maybe. Making the punches at 9.2, for Kains sake i put it up to 10tons. Actual maths would take too long so anything between 6-14tons. Kick around 10-18tons. [60% accurate, and not converted to force.]
Sorry for the long read, still good durability.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Can make air move, raise water molecules, hold a human, push back electricity, but holding mist is so far out of his abilities? Literally impossible claim. Clouds are a harder feat to move then mist, but he did it effortlessly.

Disable made him rise into the air as the user 'controls their body'. The pkmn attack existing in LoK? First its a normal type move, no mental mentioned. Second Magic isnt far off as most of his magic can be reproduced in this world. Third, the move doesnt need to know is he user knowshow the targets moves work.
As i was saying, Kains resistance to TK, when was that shown?

Yeah it makes no influence unless its actually stated to do so. And it is. Maybe LoK people try to use a mental attack to stop Kain from moving, somehow im guessing they havnt, but it makes no difference as move in the pkmn world work differently. (Yes i see he has mental resistance, even if its not relevant right now.)

Pretty much all that was needed really :/

Great, now i have to read up on LoK to fully make sense of that paragraph. But assuming Kain can forcefully turn a severed part into mist, then assuming that when he reforns the part will be attached with no damage whatsoever. Very questionable how you can believe in this but not how a storm TKer cant hold mist -,- out of all that has been said, the mist-regen is the least believable.

Lets say for example purposes that lifting uses 35% arms 30% legs and 35% body , and a punch is 60% arms 20% legs and 20% body. 35% of 30tons is 10tons which makes up the arms in the punch, making the max of whole body 16tons. Legs were hardly used in the blow, body not being properly put into the move. 2tons from those added to the 10, so around 12tons. Then that it wasn't a full power hit, 80% maybe. Making the punches at 9.2, for Kains sake i put it up to 10tons. Actual maths would take too long so anything between 6-14tons. Kick around 10-18tons. [60% accurate, and not converted to force.]
Sorry for the long read, still good durability.

Not impossible at all, your talking about mostly large physical feats, moving air currents and water masses but water vapour is far less viscous, holding mist with such powers would be like trying to catch trout with a sea bass net. Clouds are harder to move than mist by what? I doubt its specified how he moved said clouds, you may assume he grabbed them and moved them through molecules of vapour, I could claim he simply pushed them with air currents again, force of Tk and all that rather than specific control....can you show me him moving clouds please?

Controls their body physically, which has no implication when taking into account abilities that do not need movements. no mental mentioned yet M2 powers are 100% mental, thats what he is. magic is way way off, this disable movce disables powers, you simply cannot assume it will stop Kain tapping into powers that this disable move has never encoutned. Its like me claiming Kains repel shield could reflect and stand immune again shadow ball or M2 TK, it simply hasnt even though it makes him immune against physical attacks, there are no opponents like M2 in lok who have fired Tk or blasts at Kains shield. I dont remember saying Kain has resistance to TK, only mental.

This power is stated to stop the movements of enemies and stop attacks, its specifics are not outlined and M2's powers are very much obvious and outlined...we also know he does not use magic so the only possible way he could do this is to affect the mind of an opponent.

Not questionable because assuming the severed limb is damaged, as long as the piecies that were damaged e.g. piecies of flesh were not disintegrated or lost entirely then those piecies could also be recalled by Kain, just as he mists the rest of his form. He would then be whole again minus any part of him permanently destroyed. Also Kains healing factor is also fairly impressive, if you watched the video concerning Kains heart, his chest where it was torn from is scarred but not open anymore, he healed his chest. I dont belive a storm Tker can TK mist because they work differently, I dont think a storm Tker can actually hold the storm in one place, molecule by molecule either which is what M2 would need to do to achieve a lock on Kain.

I wonder where you got these percentages from? just guesses or is it factual?

His durability still is not important really though, it just means that if M2 fired his mental powers on Kain, he probably would not be as easily ripped apart as he could a normal man.

Originally posted by Burning thought

Simply moving air currents wouldn't turn clouds into a hurricane. Point is the clouds were manipulated by him, and mist is not that different. In fact it would be harder to TK clouds then mist. Moved people by TK, electricity and water by TK and everything else by TK, but clouds.... apparently he can't TK clouds by instead move the wind... is n0 reason to support your claim.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKIjCUFeJRg&feature=related <-- 0:15 (wont post due to size)

By that logic the explosive moves are mental. Just because the move comes from his mind doesn't mean it targets the mind. Powers that Disable has never encounter implies the move can do anything besides its purpose, and TK and shadow ball are not physical moves like punch and slash. Did you just say that TK is a physical attack? It has no form. ''if Kain Tked M2s mental lock on Kain then it would be broken'' even though he's never dealt with TK.

Sorry again but no. What it does is stated and shown, it doesnt target the mind. Dont try and assume that something must work the way to benefit Kain, especially if you dont understand it yourself.

Assuming he can do something out of his power, this mist-regen feat is a a bit big to claim without proof. Even if this was true all it would take to stop his would be to disintegrate just the wound, now that the small bit of flesh at the end of the limb is gone it cant attach back. Assuming he could do it in the first place. Not too impressive if it left a scar.
Not holding but the simple matter that he manipulated it takes more skill then mist. Storm feat and everything else he's been shown doing is better then a holding mist feat. Unless you can explain how mist is the one thing TK cant grab.

Came from maths, martial arts and weightlifting. Admit there not 100% correct as i dont have the exact data on all of the stats needed, it still gives a good example.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Simply moving air currents wouldn't turn clouds into a hurricane. Point is the clouds were manipulated by him, and mist is not that different. In fact it would be harder to TK clouds then mist. Moved people by TK, electricity and water by TK and everything else by TK, but clouds.... apparently he can't TK clouds by instead move the wind... is n0 reason to support your claim.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKIjCUFeJRg&feature=related <-- 0:15 (wont post due to size)

By that logic the explosive moves are mental. Just because the move comes from his mind doesn't mean it targets the mind. Powers that Disable has never encounter implies the move can do anything besides its purpose, and TK and shadow ball are not physical moves like punch and slash. Did you just say that TK is a physical attack? It has no form. ''if Kain Tked M2s mental lock on Kain then it would be broken'' even though he's never dealt with TK.

Sorry again but no. What it does is stated and shown, it doesnt target the mind. Dont try and assume that something must work the way to benefit Kain, especially if you dont understand it yourself.

Assuming he can do something out of his power, this mist-regen feat is a a bit big to claim without proof. Even if this was true all it would take to stop his would be to disintegrate just the wound, now that the small bit of flesh at the end of the limb is gone it cant attach back. Assuming he could do it in the first place. Not too impressive if it left a scar.
Not holding but the simple matter that he manipulated it takes more skill then mist. Storm feat and everything else he's been shown doing is better then a holding mist feat. Unless you can explain how mist is the one thing TK cant grab.

Came from maths, martial arts and weightlifting. Admit there not 100% correct as i dont have the exact data on all of the stats needed, it still gives a good example.

Sorry forgot about this

Clouds are made up of smaller particles than those other things, water is a liquid in comparison to Clouds which are gaseous and as for electrciity, well thats an energy so how he Tked that I dont know, probably something to do with a pokemon attack and may be different to natures lightning. At 0:15 it even looks like he is using air currents, the motion with his hand looks like he is pushing them along not grabbing their particles, either way theres no reason there to suggest he is touching their particles themselves.

What explosive moves? if he is causing psychic explotions then they are mental from him. No true, but it still comes from his mind, if its causing physical effect then its not going to restrict non physical means of attack, if your claiming it does then your leaning on a no limit fallacy or plain hyperbole. TK is a physical attack because it creates physical effects.

No its stated to stop attacks, you assuming it can stop all attacks is a no limit fallacy/hyperbole which knocks your argument out of the water, therefore if you approach the ability logically based on what M2 can do, it can either restrict physical movement and will not effect Kains mind or powers OR it will attempt to tamper with his mind and fail. Your choice but their the two attacks M2 has, relying on a base statement and assuming it can stop anyones attacks/moves regardless is a no limit fallacy.

All he needs is the ability to mist form (check) and reform from mist (check) and conciously exist as mist (check) for this power to effecitvely simply turn a missing limb to mist and reforming with it like he would usually during mist form. Well yes, disintegrate the wound but then nobody is that specific and not many can atomically elminate something anyway, certainly not M2. not too impressive? he healed in moments a fat hole in his chest and thats not impressive? Dante would have a hard job doing that.

Mist is less viscious, TK grabs objects, considering mist is not an object but millions of particules and vapour etc then he would need a feat to suggest he can actually grab those particles otherwise the most he could likely do is push it with wind currents like he seems to do to clouds.

Fair enough

Originally posted by Burning thought

Almost thought this died too.

[The lightning is pretty much the same as the real deal] The substance of electricity and fire would be harder things to move. On the dynamic-static scale on particles, those two are on the dynamic side compared to clouds that would be closer to the static side or in-between. All we can see from that is that the clouds are moving with no sign of the air-currents themselves being controlled, because it he was just moving them along he would just end up with a huge cloud and not technically a hurricane, nor would it have the same effects.

Moves like destroying the two buildens and disintegrating metal, yes mental from him but not effecting his opponents mental state. Not so sure about it being classed a physical unless you are going into sub-categories of what non-/physical. Neither a no limit fallacy or hyperbole as im not the one stating what it does as its written down and shown in episodes, best chance of breaking it would be with a strong counter TK. It would have to be stronger then M2's. TK.

Already said about this part. Immobilising the target IS the logical thing that M2 can do. As we've discussed any of Kains powers would come from his mind and have a physical effect (Teleport and mist effect his body.) on himself. Either classed as a physical manifestation of a move or just as powers and they'd still be unavailable to use.

None of that proves that a his consciousness transcends to severed limbs allowing them to turn to mist. First of all if its a clean cut then all the pieces are there but if its by a type energy then that part would be burnt/singed/whatever you call it when talking about these powers. Also M2 has done the same thing to metal. Lastly Dante heals from being stabbed all the time. Best note is alastors hilt that went through him, from collar to waist and healed in a few seconds. Kain got a hand in the chest, passed out for a while and was left with a scar. Which means it is not fully healed.

Storm feat proves he can. Besides that? What he did to; water -heavier then mist-,fire -closer to a gas then mist- and electricity -particles that would be harder to handle-

Originally posted by BloodRain
Almost thought this died too.

[The lightning is pretty much the same as the real deal] The substance of electricity and fire would be harder things to move. On the dynamic-static scale on particles, those two are on the dynamic side compared to clouds that would be closer to the static side or in-between. All we can see from that is that the clouds are moving with no sign of the air-currents themselves being controlled, because it he was just moving them along he would just end up with a huge cloud and not technically a hurricane, nor would it have the same effects.

Moves like destroying the two buildens and disintegrating metal, yes mental from him but not effecting his opponents mental state. Not so sure about it being classed a physical unless you are going into sub-categories of what non-/physical. Neither a no limit fallacy or hyperbole as im not the one stating what it does as its written down and shown in episodes, best chance of breaking it would be with a strong counter TK. It would have to be stronger then M2's. TK.

Already said about this part. Immobilising the target IS the logical thing that M2 can do. As we've discussed any of Kains powers would come from his mind and have a physical effect (Teleport and mist effect his body.) on himself. Either classed as a physical manifestation of a move or just as powers and they'd still be unavailable to use.

None of that proves that a his consciousness transcends to severed limbs allowing them to turn to mist. First of all if its a clean cut then all the pieces are there but if its by a type energy then that part would be burnt/singed/whatever you call it when talking about these powers. Also M2 has done the same thing to metal. Lastly Dante heals from being stabbed all the time. Best note is alastors hilt that went through him, from collar to waist and healed in a few seconds. Kain got a hand in the chest, passed out for a while and was left with a scar. Which means it is not fully healed.

Storm feat proves he can. Besides that? What he did to; water -heavier then mist-,fire -closer to a gas then mist- and electricity -particles that would be harder to handle-

Neither would moving the paritcles in a Cloud, clouds alone do not make hurricanes, enormous winds on the right "front" and at the right time make hurricanes. Eithier way the movement of his hand still seems to suggest wind currents moving the clouds, not him moving them alone, otherwise he would have just kept his head still while aiming at them and then made one large movement like he does when he lifts one or two single entities. Do you admit theres no actual proof that the Cloud is being moved particle by particle, e.g. what you would need to move mist?

Because he was creating a physical change in the environment, its like a force of TK. Hyperbole is not determined by you or the developers, the claim of it being able to stop any attack is hyperbole, you claiming it can is a no limit fallacy. TK is for manipulating physical objects, having a stronger physical force than another should have no affect on mental or magical abilities which are not stated or shown in the moves effects anyway.

immbolisation is physical, therefore Kain can still use powers based on that ability that do not need movements. Therefore Kain can teleport, use magic, time aura etc and shield himself without needing to move.

Why wouldnt it? his conciousness is not physical, them being removed from the main hunk of meat Kain inhabits still makes them a hunk of meat, his arm for instance. Ive only heard of him burning metal, show me? Dante has never had his heart ripped out, he would die but assuming his whole chest was ripped open and his heart torn out, it would be far more impressive if he healed it over even with a scar than just regenerating from a sword wound.

Fire is not closer to a gas...its ignited gas, it has its own tier just likelightning ,their more like energy. Thats not based on physical grounds as all I have seen in the way of lightning is an attack from another pokemon, not mother nature herself. Can you provide the vid please of the lightning so its clearer for me?

Fire is exothermic oxidation. Nothing more, nothing less. The difference between fire and mist is insignificant.

Mist would be much easier to TK.

What?! and I thought you would have supported Kain....

I'm confused, but if I believed Kain would win, I'd support him, but I see no evidence which points to that.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
if I believed Kain would win, I'd support him

🙄

Explain then how mist is easier to Tk than fire?

Fire is exothermic oxidation. Nothing more, nothing less.

Even soo, he could just create a planet wiping hurricane and spread KAin's mist out too far for him to control, killing him.

I wasn't even aware Fire could be considered close to a state of matter. I was sure it was just a chemical reaction.

It's basicly fast moving air.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
This basicly says it all. =P Your entire defense for Mist seems to be that MewTwo is incapable of fine manipulations. Well, Fire requires more minute manipulation than mist.

Even soo, he could just create a planet wiping hurricane and spread KAin's mist out too far for him to control, killing him.

Seems not...

Took him ages and your wrong on all accounts. You would be more correct in saying spreading Kains mist too far for him to be able to get back together again in any likely circumstance. Fact is M2 cannot create such a hurricane in this area, first he would kill himself with his own hurriance and second Kain wouldnt give him the time needed to do it. Even those slow cloud movements would be too long.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
It's basicly fast moving air.

So to repel it he just creates fast moving air in another direction, or change the airs current direction so technically he is doing nothing more than he is doing with the clouds...

Originally posted by Burning thought
Took him ages

To be fair, if he had put any less effort into it we would have heard him yawn

"shrug" maybe he does not show effort like a human would, when has he "shown" effort would you say?

Then again, whos to say it was hard? perhaps he didnt need to put much effort into it because he was doing something simple with TK.