Sephiroth, Kratos, and Kain v.s. Samus Aran and MewTwo

Originally posted by BloodRain
O.o touchy subject eh? Plausible theory? Weak platform + Boss fight = AHHH!! IM FALLING!! Again i dont know, nor does it matter. ¬¬

Why touchy?

The platform didn't seem weak when they were fighting.

It kind of matters, because if I am wrong and Sephiroth had nothing to do with that it means that isn't his feat! 🙁

Originally posted by BloodRain
Yeah, I did read what they were saying. No where did it say ''D-Damn... He's got control of my body.... Rawr?!'' Means they couldn't make themselves properly move.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRTqyeYSgIY

1:23
Cid did specifically say: "My...My body...I can't control my body......Uuugh!?"

If that doesn't mean they couldn't control thier body, I don't know if anyone could possibly say they couldn't control thier body.

1:29
Red XIII: "My front legs......My hind legs......My tail's about to tear off!!"

I am fairly certain Sephiroth had control of them who else would because it certainly wasn't them.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Highly doubt Seph wanted to shake them like rag dolls. It was ps1 graphics to show distress of the characters in that they cant move their bodies and can only resort to 'twitches'.

They were clearly moving, and it was clearly stated that they were not moving themselves.

Originally posted by BloodRain
''Okay, so how did they end up all on the neat platforms, instead of falling into the lifestream or splatting on the platforms?'' If thats your question then its either PIS or Seph wanted to save them for some reason and placed them on the rocks, disappeared only to come back when they wake for a dramatic entrance.

So you agree Sephiroth brought them down onto the platforms?

Originally posted by BloodRain
......not a good feat, a technical on a minute scale with psychic energy feat ^^ Can you show me what you're talking about?

So you think creating a pokeball is harder than creating three distinct beings each with different personalities, builds and looks and different weapons and clothes for them. Creating a brain must be a sinche compared to a pokeball.

Here you go: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPK4yDZujWQ

You see it happening a lot better if you have the bluray, in this you can just barely see the clothes still being created.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Sephiroth can't go lightspeed anymore than he can hit someone with the power of an exploding star. Lulz. And people call me a fanboy. I'm pretty tame caompared to such outlandish, and entirely baseless claims. Both of which defy everything about FF7.

Except we aren't claiming it, the developers are. Sorry 😛

Originally posted by ScreamPaste Remember that whole summoning a meteor and waiting a month thing Seph does in FF7? KIND OF MOOT if you can use the power of an exploding star! And that attack doesn't kill Cloud.. WAIT! Maybe Cloud is SUPAR DURABLEZ! He could just jump into space and tank the meteor hit for the planet at no damage. Ohwait, no. Cloud would have been killed by Shin Bahumat if Aeris dead ass hadn't helped him.. WAIT! Maybe Bahumat was going easy on all that fragile metal scaffolding?.

Haha, funny.

A. He didn't want to completely obliterate the planet. He wanted to merely wound it so he could bathe in more lifestream than he would know what to do with.
B. Sephiroth has never in canon used the ability. Doesn't mean he doesn't have it. Also it has been given a canon description, you just don't want to accept it. (Also by the developers.)
C. When did it take a month?

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
The "light speed" movement is a single, obviously hyperbolic and isolated statement which applies only to one, probably non-cannon special move in Dissidia. He doesn't move that fast. If he did, he wouldn't need to pilot a plane-Ohhh waaait. Wasn't that one of those big plans he had? You only need to go mach 22 to escape the gravity of a planet, and he couldn't even do that. Cloud can react to Sephiroth's movements, Cloud is OBVIOUSLY FASTER THAN LIGHT! Ohwait, Cloud gets shot in AC. Hm. MAYBE THE BULLET WAS FTL!?

A. It is canon, so you better accept it.
B. No he doesn't need to pilot a planet, however he wants to. Pilot planets, which I don't believe MewTwo is capable of?
C. Sephiroth has never used his full abilities on Cloud, otherwise he would be dead.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
...No, FFanboys. No.

Whatevs, everything can be backed up in all the Ultimania books.

Originally posted by K1ll3r
Why touchy?
The platform didn't seem weak when they were fighting.
It kind of matters, because if I am wrong and Sephiroth had nothing to do with that it means that isn't his feat! 🙁

Cid did specifically say: "My...My body...I can't control my body......Uuugh!?"
If that doesn't mean they couldn't control thier body, I don't know if anyone could possibly say they couldn't control thier body.
Red XIII: "My front legs......My hind legs......My tail's about to tear off!!"
I am fairly certain Sephiroth had control of them who else would because it certainly wasn't them.

They were clearly moving, and it was clearly stated that they were not moving themselves.

So you agree Sephiroth brought them down onto the platforms?

So you think creating a pokeball is harder than creating three distinct beings each with different personalities, builds and looks and different weapons and clothes for them. Creating a brain must be a sinche compared to a pokeball.
Here you go:
You see it happening a lot better if you have the bluray, in this you can just barely see the clothes still being created.

Sorry, it seemed like you were annoyed. Yeah but usually a whole mess of crap like that happens in games when the boss dies. Could be effected by the place they were, may look into that. Ok ill give you and Seph that feat >.> but it doesnt much besides destruction feats like ''Pulling part of a building down'' and Tk feats like when he held them.

I saw him say it. If Seph used his TK to, for instance, grab hold of their nerves, neither of them would control the body but it may still move/twitch. This ability is on par with M2 holding someone up. They have no control of their body but it still move slightly. (My guess is the nerves)
To prove what I said is true, look at all the characters. The big cat moves in a flop/hop motion, Cloud and Cid flail but at different speeds, and Vincent doesn't move at all. Its just their character animation for this panic-like state.

Well i motioned for PIS and the rest was sarcasm. Meh either way it still isnt much of a feat even if he did.

Creating a hand sized pocket dimension-esk object that can turn a creature the size of humpback whale into energy and containing it, plus his were more advanced then the regular kind. Pretty hard to make 25 of them at once. OHH the remnants, why didn't you say so. They are born from Sephs will and embody different traits of him, so he didn't specifically create them. Did manifest into them though.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Sorry, it seemed like you were annoyed. Yeah but usually a whole mess of crap like that happens in games when the boss dies. Could be effected by the place they were, may look into that. Ok ill give you and Seph that feat >.> but it doesnt much besides destruction feats like ''Pulling part of a building down'' and Tk feats like when he held them.

Not annoyed, don't know if anyone knows this but I enjoy debating. 😛 (If you can call this debating 😆 )

Originally posted by BloodRain
I saw him say it. If Seph used his TK to, for instance, grab hold of their nerves, neither of them would control the body but it may still move/twitch. This ability is on par with M2 holding someone up. They have no control of their body but it still move slightly. (My guess is the nerves)
To prove what I said is true, look at all the characters. The big cat moves in a flop/hop motion, Cloud and Cid flail but at different speeds, and Vincent doesn't move at all. Its just their character animation for this panic-like state.

Those are all valid points, but technically if he could grab hold of their nerves he could control them yes?

Originally posted by BloodRain
Well i motioned for PIS and the rest was sarcasm. Meh either way it still isnt much of a feat even if he did.

Well, it is a fairly good feat though, moving over 400+ kilograms of weight with Will alone...

Originally posted by BloodRain
Creating a hand sized pocket dimension-esk object that can turn a creature the size of humpback whale into energy and containing it, plus his were more advanced then the regular kind. Pretty hard to make 25 of them at once.

I admit that is pretty crazy, but I wager it is as difficult or more difficult to create a human brain.

Originally posted by BloodRain
OHH the remnants, why didn't you say so. They are born from Sephs will and embody different traits of him, so he didn't specifically create them. Did manifest into them though.

Yes, Sephiroth created them with his Will. I already said that.

Go define: Manifest in google. While you are at it define: Manifestation

He did specifically create them, in fact the developers gave us his exact thoughts in On the Way to a Smile. Which clearly states he consciously created three agents because he didn't know what he looked like.

Each one does have resembling traits such as cockiness and cruelty, but each one was different.

Anyway bedtime for me, picking up my new computer tomorrow! (Er today xD).

Originally posted by K1ll3r
Those are all valid points, but technically if he could grab hold of their nerves he could control them yes?

Originally posted by K1ll3r
Well, it is a fairly good feat though, moving over 400+ kilograms of weight with Will alone...

Originally posted by K1ll3r
I admit that is pretty crazy, but I wager it is as difficult or more difficult to create a human brain.

Originally posted by K1ll3r
He did specifically create them, in fact the developers gave us his exact thoughts in On the Way to a Smile. Which clearly states he consciously created three agents because he didn't know what he looked like.
Each one does have resembling traits such as cockiness and cruelty, but each one was different.

He was not using his own powers to make them, his Will yes but the power came from the Lifestream. He found three appearences that were similar to his own. Basically he used the Lifestream to put give the memories a form again with himself mixed in. Impressive to make, not from his powers though.

Extract from Lifestream White 3;
''Eventually the woman discovered that the man, spreading hatred around the world, was trying to manifest on the surface. She wondered how he was planning to do that. Summoning up all her courage she approached the man’s spirit. However, he spotted her and chased her off, but soon gave up chase. She knew the man was laughing at her. You can’t do anything. However, she had caught what he was planning. He was apparently going to use separate entities to be his agents. The woman asked herself if she could do the same. However, she soon changed her mind. Even if it were possible, I want to meet Cloud the way he knows me.''

Aerith has the potential to make her own remnants using the Lifestream. If shes not near his power and she is able to create them, it shows that its not that hard of a feat. For those of you that ive in the Lifestream)

Yay for new computer 👆

Originally posted by BloodRain
Mind control has come up in an episode or 7 where the pkmn resists it, but im not going to look through the 600 eps for them. And even if he gets the chance to get to M2s mind, how will he manipulate a mind as powerful as his? I see where you're coming from with Giovani but its not a psychic feat, only a crime boss manipulating someone by offering power. That was M2 right after 'birth/activation', and made a poor judgement based lack of better knowledge at the time.

Ill refer to ScreamPastes post on creating the pokeball from atoms. The balls them self being complex work (converting a 15m or a 1ton pkmn into matter and storing it in a pokeball that can be the size of a golf ball) combined with his colossal powers and intelligence, its rational to say if he had to there's nothing stopping him from manipulation his inner body. The lab destruction was him using his powers for the very first time before was able to fully use or even focus his power.

If the sword is tangible then it can be held back by TK. Especially if it needs to make contact. Sorry, im not gonna search the whole movie waiting to hear if the scenes in that movie or another, take too long and a waste of effort trying. In truth I did forget about his team mates, so chances for Kain to successfully land a damaging move increases.... if it wasn't for this; In this scenario your'e saying Kain uses a sneak attack on M2. Despite the fact that being in a fight and one with the odds against him, M2 will be on full alert, heightening his powers and spacial awareness. Sneaking would be rendered useless against him. Kratos is no threat, like you said with Samus, chances are he cant keep up with M2/Kain/Seph (and even Samus for her jumping, speed and range).
What's to say M2 cant override Kains TK? Very logical feat, weaker TK gets nulled by stronger TK.

Actually a specially trained and amplified Drowzee, but that's getting off the topic. Using mass mind wipe and mass forced teleportation is not an easy act, and a mind wipe involves safely erasing specific memorise to a certain time without going too far or damaging the subjects brain.(<- Sci-fi and some medical info) Kains strongest in physical is M2s weakest physical in his weakest form. If he can create a storm with a flick of his wrist, what can he do if he focuses a full powered attack on Kain? Ends with blood rain. 😛

Hes faster and better at teleporting, can TK a catagory 3(?) hurricane with no sign of effort. Coming from a creature who has the ability to destroy the planet. Not to mention the 100 other moves besides psychic hes able to use. (Around 50 of those are useful) And about his TK, in both videos you posted Kain grabbed his opponent with an obvious hand movement. Any way for you to show that he can use the same skill with less movements? Or where it shows Kain manipulating blood to rush to their head or heart.

Oh no I did not mean Giovani actually mind controlled him, I was simply saying despite M2 mental advantages he can be easily "led" such as by characters such as Giovani and Kain could od the same, enter his mind and make him do things. His mentally strong but not defensive of his mind. I dont think M2 will be able to survive Kain taking his mind, he can even replace m2 soul with his own, when Kain leaves his body will dissolve.

but can this be proven? he seemingly created pokeballs but do we know this? do we know he created them out of atoms, and that simply means he can attempt to push against Kains control, its useless because M2 will either go into shock and die from this happening as soon as Kain starts and if he tries to stop him, he will still be killed by his own probing.

Because M2 has only defeated/pushed back TK, I have not seen him completly nullify a character from using TK....also Kain as I said being invisible or simply being out of sight would hardly make M2 look 360 around himself just to find one of his 3 opponents, he would have to be extremely over paranoid. Kain could in the time it takes for M2 to turn and find him have him under TK or fire a spell.

Thats only if he can focus this before Kain telepots, then he would have to focus again. This would be impossible because with a flick of his hand Kain could spray M2 blood all around his body, then it goes back to the argument on if M2 can actually protect his body. M2 can either be on the defensive and look for Kain if he teleports nad perhaps miss a blade beam/fireball or spell from Sephiroth OR he can attempt focusing on Kain only to have Kain flick his wrists and manip his blood/take his mind.

faster and better at teleporting? can you show me the faster teleports please? M2 seems to move around by levitation a huge amount so I cant see how his teleport would be his favoured mode of travel in this match. not sure if Kain can do it in less movements and how he controls the blood is irrelvent, M2 would still die from having his blood manipulated, concerning rushing the blood to his heart ill simply go back to your idea of a "tree falling in a forest" whereby its entirely logically possible that Kain who can move blood towards himself, could easily send the blood somewhere else. Both movements of blood would still cause shock and trauma and possible kill M2.

Dissidia's canonicity(sp?) is a very delicate topic IMO. While we have some evidences pointing to it being canon, there are so many inconsistencies(explained with the lame "A wizard(Cosmos/Chaos) did it"😉, that it's hard to consider it as such.

Aerith has the potential to make her own remnants using the Lifestream. If shes not near his power and she is able to create them, it shows that its not that hard of a feat. For those of you that ive in the Lifestream)

But remember Aerith was an Ancient. She had a deep connection to the Planet even before dying, and after that, she only increased in power(to the point she was able to destroy the J-cells with her holy rain, something never done before by any Ancient(they were able to seal Jenova, but not destroy her cells like Aerith did)).
And even with all that power, she still didn't knew if she could do the same thing Sephiroth did("The woman askerd herself if she could do the same"😉.

Stating that "Aerith could do it too" doesn't make Sephiroth's feat less impressive.

And to be frank, I think Mewtwo is overrated. From what I remember(I could be wrong though), his mental abilities only afected normal humans and some weak Pokemons. And IIRC the storm he formed affected only an ocean, not the entire planet(correct me if I'm wrong).

Saying that Mewtwo could mind-screw someone of Sephiroth's mental power(a guy who survived all the consciousness of the Lifestream trying to dilute his soul/mind after he fell in it, who had a mental-battle with friggin Jenova and won(taking control of her), and who was able to hold back the ultimate white magic of his world even without a physical body after his Safer body was destroyed), is pretty laughable.

Not to be rude, but you remember wrong. Mewtwo mind raped (Gary's?) Alakazam with the same effort it takes to breath in the first movie.

Bulbapedia states that Mewtwo can summon storms powerful enough to destroy the planet.

Originally posted by Burning thought

Kain activates his TK by aiming his hand to the desired target, to nullify him from using it all M2 has to do is TK hold him. (Or use 'Disable' on him, but that would be too easy) How would pushing back the TK not work here... Focusing to stop a sword slash, besides the initial teleport there's nothing new here. And with a simple glance at Kain M2 can get him in a TK hold and hes done for. For all we know the second spinal cord/ nerve tube can make this blood feat not as dangerous.
M2s is the calm type, not the paranoid type. Kratos is on the ground and Seph main assault is in close quarters so its predictable where he will come from. Whats Kains mode of flight anyway? (Could throw in the 'Detect' move here, again making this too easy)

1. M2s also in the top 1.2% for speed (6th fastest, faster then a 'mach 2' bird), speeds one of his best attributes. 2. Didnt say''faster teleporting'', even if it that may be true. 3. He doesnt need to teleport because of the levitation and speed, telepoting is used when needed. Which now is a good time for.
Me saying it for a shield blocking a tangible sword is no where near the same as you saying ''Because he can move blood to him to take a drink he can use it at range to make the blood do anything he wants.'' Thats changing the purpose of Kains ability.

Mewtwo with his blue barrier around him, full powered psychic TK attacks and superior speed. Thats not all he can do but that would be all he needs. Samus so far hasnt had to do much, her entering this so far 3 on 1 fight seals it.

Originally posted by SHM

And btw i never said to K1ll3r that Seph would get mind-screwed by M2, was only looking into his feats.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Doesnt make his feat less impressive, but he didnt get the power from himself. (Now that I think about it im not sure how creating the remnant effects this fight).

But manipulating parts of the Lifestream is one of his powers. The same way a Jedi or Sith manipulates the Force.
Actually, the Lifestream and the Force are very similar.

Hey if a weak pkmn can control an average person, and M2 is many times over stronger then said average pkmn, including his mental powers. By this logic if someone has above human resistance, M2 will still take affect. Seph/Kain do have a high resistance, still not impossible to get to. M2s attempt =?= Kain/Seph resistance, no way any of us will have the definite answer. Safe to say with the height of his strength its not hopeless chance.

That's where we disagree. Because IMO overpowering the minds of the Lifestream(the consciousness of an entire planet), absorbing the knowledge of the Ancients(an entire race), and overpowering Jenova(a creature well-known for her/it's insane mind powers), is FAR more impressive than overpowering a few human minds and a single psychic Pokemon.
The scale between Sephiroth's feats and Mewtwo's, is too big IMO.

Sephiroth did all that.. and HE CAN SUMMON CLOUDS! 😄

Originally posted by LLLLLink
Not to be rude, but you remember wrong. Mewtwo mind raped (Gary's?) Alakazam with the same effort it takes to breath in the first movie.

Sorry, but compared to everything Sephiroth did(stated in my previous post), I don't find this impressive.

Bulbapedia states that Mewtwo can summon storms powerful enough to destroy the planet.

A Wikipedia about Pokemon? This is your 'credible' source of evidence?!

And even if that's true... FFVII itself states that Sephiroth can, and actually was, holding back a magic powerful enough to destroy the planet. While fighting the party... And summoning Meteor... And doing alot of other things at the same time.

Still thinking Mewtwo is overrated.

Even if he is overrated, not nearly as overrated as Sephiroth. MewTwo did create a storm with his mind capable of destroying the planet in his movie.

Kain. The field. Solo's. Who wants popcorn?

Kain. The field. Lying unconscious. Eats popcorn and watches team 2 sail to victory.

mewtwo breaks samus in half because she's human and proceeds to do the same with team one.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Sephiroth did all that.. and HE CAN SUMMON CLOUDS! 😄

And overrated doesn't change who wins a fight. lol

Originally posted by Burning thought
Can you show the more "consistent" plasma beam? and its feats?

As a matter of fact, I can show the more "consistent" plasma beam, from the very page you got the information on the beam in the first place.

http://metroid.wikia.com/wiki/Plasma_Beam#Appearances

The 2d Samus sprites are all firing plasma beams. Now, to be fair, some of the sprites shown are plasma beams along with other beams, but since most of Samus's arsenal can be used cumulatively, it doesn't really make much difference.

YouTube video

This video showcases the before and after effects of acquiring the plasma beam (the beam itself is found around 2:30). You can clearly see that the beam passes through enemies while damaging at the same time.

M2 TK hold them all while Samus goes and screw attacks them to bits. Or Zero lazer 😄

Originally posted by BloodRain
Kain. The field. Lying unconscious. Eats popcorn and watches team 2 sail to victory.

🙄 unconcious how exactly? Kain had to have the means of his very excistence torn out of him to be knocked out for what had to be at most a few minutes....not that anyone here can do this.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Again, literally he was in his first hour of consciousness and made a mistake. Giovani offered power, M2 got said power and up until he left only gave him a few pkmn in return 😬 this point has nothing to do with anything. In pkmn stats his 'special defence' is in the top 19.26% of all pkmn, not the highest but good enough. Especially that he is substantially buffed in the movies.
We can see him making them. Can you think of another way? Cant just buy those things. M2 goes into shock from a psychic conflict or dies from his own probing...? 1. Dont see a way for that to happen. 2. I think M2s smart enough to know what to an what not to do if in your own body.

Kain activates his TK by aiming his hand to the desired target, to nullify him from using it all M2 has to do is TK hold him. (Or use 'Disable' on him, but that would be too easy) How would pushing back the TK not work here... Focusing to stop a sword slash, besides the initial teleport there's nothing new here. And with a simple glance at Kain M2 can get him in a TK hold and hes done for. For all we know the second spinal cord/ nerve tube can make this blood feat not as dangerous.
M2s is the calm type, not the paranoid type. Kratos is on the ground and Seph main assault is in close quarters so its predictable where he will come from. Whats Kains mode of flight anyway? (Could throw in the 'Detect' move here, again making this too easy)

1. M2s also in the top 1.2% for speed (6th fastest, faster then a 'mach 2' bird), speeds one of his best attributes. 2. Didnt say''faster teleporting'', even if it that may be true. 3. He doesnt need to teleport because of the levitation and speed, telepoting is used when needed. Which now is a good time for.
Me saying it for a shield blocking a tangible sword is no where near the same as you saying ''Because he can move blood to him to take a drink he can use it at range to make the blood do anything he wants.'' Thats changing the purpose of Kains ability.

Mewtwo with his blue barrier around him, full powered psychic TK attacks and superior speed. Thats not all he can do but that would be all he needs. Samus so far hasnt had to do much, her entering this so far 3 on 1 fight seals it.

How are you sure this mistake could not occur? M2 still as I siad has no mental defences, simple fact it seems. So he is easily going to be mind controlled and his fair game for Kain to use on the battlefield, it will quickl become 4 vs Samus.... How can you not seen how M2 would die from shock/probing of his own blood flooding his system or if were not going to think outside the box, pouring out of his nose/mouth or trying to escape through his body towards Kain? he cant.....and if he tried to go into his own body which is a very big assumption if he can even do it, he would kill himself because his Tk is even stronger than Kains.

m2 cannot Tk "hold" Kain because Kain can teleport/mist form, thus breaking the hold. Because first TK in Lok seems to work differently, its not coming from Kain in a beam or wave that can be pushed back, Kains powers appear on the body of his opponent and he throws them around, if M2 wants to forcefully push the TK from his own body (if he can) then he will end up tearing himself in half from the inside if you claim his Tk is so strong. Kains gains air from teleportation and levitating.

1. Him being fast is pointless, Kain as I said slows time with hs powers, M2 would be slowed down by I think it was about 60% or more. And teleportation> speed combined with time slow.

2. So his teleporting is not better then...ok

The purpose of Kains power was to manipulate blood, the fact he called it to himself with Tk was all he did in-game, but outside of the box and gmaeplay restrictions all he would do differenly is move his hand up or down (heart/brain) instead of towards himself.

Barrer protects from physical attacks, Kain uses very few of them tbh, only his sword which is perhapos the least dangerous of his powers. M2 speed and psychic powers are useless, psychic because Kain is fast enough to escape through mist or teleport and speed because of time abilities and Kains own teleport.

Originally posted by XanatosForever
As a matter of fact, I can show the more "consistent" plasma beam, from the very page you got the information on the beam in the first place.

http://metroid.wikia.com/wiki/Plasma_Beam#Appearances

The 2d Samus sprites are all firing plasma beams. Now, to be fair, some of the sprites shown are plasma beams along with other beams, but since most of Samus's arsenal can be used cumulatively, it doesn't really make much difference.

YouTube video

This video showcases the before and after effects of acquiring the plasma beam (the beam itself is found around 2:30). You can clearly see that the beam passes through enemies while damaging at the same time.

I cannot see how this beam is any different to the shots she was fireing before she gained plasma beam, none of this looks impressive so I cannot see how this helps Samus if in the past I have heard she has lightspeed attacks and mini black holes....