Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Then you clearly have no respect for canon.
I must have missed the piece of canon, that dictates that, regardless of his own skill and abilities, a Dark Side user will always lose against a Vaapad practioneer.
Or, rather than that, I read the RotS novel instead of buying interpretations from certain people who can't find the hyperbole in statement "Sidious was so powerful that he blotted out the stars". That aside, one could think about the fact, that Sidious didn't touch a lightsaber for more than a decade, while Dooku kept practicing the art of lightsaber combat and increased his - already formidable - skills with the weapon after joining the Dark Side. He even had a nice amount of actual "training" during the Clone Wars, sparring with the likes of Ventress and Grievous and duelling the likes of Anakin, Obi-Wan, Mace and Yoda.
And since Yoda and Mace have been mentioned. Focusing on the highest level of canon (movie / script) and taking the confrontation(s) between Dooku and Mace into consideration, one has to reach to the conclusion that - saberwise - Dooku performed better against Mace and Yoda, than Sidious did.
So it stands to reason that Mace - having problems against the like of Vastor and Depa - will not simply win this fight "because he uses Vaapad".
Originally posted by Borbarad
I must have missed the piece of canon, that dictates that, regardless of his own skill and abilities, a Dark Side user will always lose against a Vaapad practioneer.Or, rather than that, I read the RotS novel instead of buying interpretations from certain people who can't find the hyperbole in statement "Sidious was so powerful that he blotted out the stars". That aside, one could think about the fact, that Sidious didn't touch a lightsaber for more than a decade, while Dooku kept practicing the art of lightsaber combat and increased his - already formidable - skills with the weapon after joining the Dark Side. He even had a nice amount of actual "training" during the Clone Wars, sparring with the likes of Ventress and Grievous and duelling the likes of Anakin, Obi-Wan, Mace and Yoda.
And since Yoda and Mace have been mentioned. Focusing on the highest level of canon (movie / script) and taking the confrontation(s) between Dooku and Mace into consideration, one has to reach to the conclusion that - saberwise - Dooku performed better against Mace [b]and
Yoda, than Sidious did.So it stands to reason that Mace - having problems against the like of Vastor and Depa - will not simply win this fight "because he uses Vaapad". [/B]
This is what he actually said:
Originally posted by Board Walker
Vaapad > dark side really is ones opinion. As demonstrated with Mace Windu versus Sidious, where sidious easily held his own against overwhelming numbers, and saved Mace so he could manipulate the situation to seem as though he were about to be killed right when anakin arrives to sway him.See how easy it is to have a perception?
I see vaapad just as another form, a philosoph, not better or greater then any other.
So, three things that were mentioned here:
1) "Vaapad > dark side really is ones opinion." Well, Vaapad turns a Dark Sider's own anger and rage against him and that is how Mace eventually gained the upper hand on Sidious, without it he wouldn't have won. How is it an opinion then?
2) "As demonstrated with Mace Windu versus Sidious, where sidious easily held his own against overwhelming numbers, and saved Mace so he could manipulate the situation to seem as though he were about to be killed right when anakin arrives to sway him." Sidious only 'saved' Mace after he lost the saber duel (was overpowered) in which Mace used Vaapad.
3) "I see vaapad just as another form, a philosoph, not better or greater then any other."
Yeah, I know the next quote is from Wookieepedia but its source is Shatterpoint.
"Six there were for generations of Jedi. The seventh, is not well-known. Powerful form it is. Deadliest of all. But dangerous it is, for its master as well as its opponent. Few have studied. One student alone, to mastery has risen." - Yoda, Shatterpoint
I do believe all the saber styles are each equal with one another in the grand scheme, and that each if utilized by the individual can defeat any other saber style.
Vaapad is just another style in my perception, and as for it turning the rage and darkness of the opponent against them I do not see this as literal or real in any regard. I see it as a heavily offense as well as focusing heavily on countering other heavily offensive users.
So a mixture of form V and form III is what vaapad is, heavily offense while keeping up the attack to throw opponent off balance, as well as being heavily counter orientated, so its strength is against other heavily offense styles. But does it mean in any way he turns the darkness and dark force energy against the opponent? No.
Makashi is fast, graceful, extremely accurate, and is designed to use the opponents leverage and movement against their own self. Parries, side steps, reposte, with Mace using a flurry of many consecutive strikes (ala seeming as if its multiple blades to the untrained eye) it will leave him extremely vulnerable to precision strikes that are Dookus specialty, a loss of a hand here or there, or a fatal strike to the head.
As for the force? Dooku was very adept prior and only strengthened his knowledge int he force as time passed as well as dabbling in the dark side.
Originally posted by BorbaradSlash covered that nicely, but I feel compelled to chirp in: Way to see what wasn't there, take a glib generalization as an argument, and to blow something out of proportion.
I must have missed the piece of canon, that dictates that, regardless of his own skill and abilities, a Dark Side user will always lose against a Vaapad practioneer.Or, rather than that, I read the RotS novel instead of buying interpretations from certain people who can't find the hyperbole in statement "Sidious was so powerful that he blotted out the stars". That aside, one could think about the fact, that Sidious didn't touch a lightsaber for more than a decade, while Dooku kept practicing the art of lightsaber combat and increased his - already formidable - skills with the weapon after joining the Dark Side. He even had a nice amount of actual "training" during the Clone Wars, sparring with the likes of Ventress and Grievous and duelling the likes of Anakin, Obi-Wan, Mace and Yoda.
And since Yoda and Mace have been mentioned. Focusing on the highest level of canon (movie / script) and taking the confrontation(s) between Dooku and Mace into consideration, one has to reach to the conclusion that - saberwise - Dooku performed better against Mace [b]and
Yoda, than Sidious did.So it stands to reason that Mace - having problems against the like of Vastor and Depa - will not simply win this fight "because he uses Vaapad". [/B]
Originally posted by Board Walker
Vaapad is just another style in my perception, and as for it turning the rage and darkness of the opponent against them I do not see this as literal or real in any regard. I see it as a heavily offense as well as focusing heavily on countering other heavily offensive users.
boxed
Originally posted by Board Walker
But does it mean in any way he turns the darkness and dark force energy against the opponent? No.
ROTS novelization: Pg. 330
"Vaapad is a channel for darkness, and that darkness flowed both ways. He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the shadow's rage and power into his inmost center-- And let it fountain out again.
He reflected the fury upon its source as a lightsaber redirects a blaster bolt."
I don't know if i have ever so completely destroyed an argument with a single quote in my entire time on this website.
The argument is in your perception, any destroying or domination of an argument is purely some thing you have conceived and chosen to believe in your own paradigm. I however do not share in your self fulfilled world and belief, nor am I influenced at all by your words or statement of self proclaimed victory in this so called "argument".
All I ask you to do is stop arguing with canon. BW, if you know me at all, you know i'm not worried about winning. I was merely excited that quote fit so perfectly against what you had said. If it had fit perfectly in agreement with what you had said, i would have happily posted it as well.
You said that Vapaad does not turn the darkness and force energy of the darkside user against the user, I gave you a quote that tells you exactly that it does.
Simmer down and join a discussion. No need to be so argumentative all the time.
Originally posted by Board Walker
I do believe all the saber styles are each equal with one another in the grand scheme, and that each if utilized by the individual can defeat any other saber style.Vaapad is just another style in my perception, and as for it turning the rage and darkness of the opponent against them I do not see this as literal or real in any regard. I see it as a heavily offense as well as focusing heavily on countering other heavily offensive users.
So a mixture of form V and form III is what vaapad is, heavily offense while keeping up the attack to throw opponent off balance, as well as being heavily counter orientated, so its strength is against other heavily offense styles. But does it mean in any way he turns the darkness and dark force energy against the opponent? No.
Makashi is fast, graceful, extremely accurate, and is designed to use the opponents leverage and movement against their own self. Parries, side steps, reposte, with Mace using a flurry of many consecutive strikes (ala seeming as if its multiple blades to the untrained eye) it will leave him extremely vulnerable to precision strikes that are Dookus specialty, a loss of a hand here or there, or a fatal strike to the head.
As for the force? Dooku was very adept prior and only strengthened his knowledge int he force as time passed as well as dabbling in the dark side.
Hmmm, let us use your logic. I do not think that you live on this planet, therefore you do not. It is my opinion that you have sex with goats, therefore you do. I believe that you believe that what others should believe is that believing something is all that one needs to believe in order for it to be true.
Originally posted by truejedi
ROTS novelization: Pg. 330"Vaapad is a channel for darkness, and that darkness flowed both ways. He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the shadow's rage and power into his inmost center-- And let it fountain out again.
He reflected the fury upon its source as a lightsaber redirects a blaster bolt."I don't know if i have ever so completely destroyed an argument with a single quote in my entire time on this website.
clapping
Arguments I see as a way to warp opinion with other opinions, I have no desire to argue, I enjoy expressing my view of reality, which i have and am doing so. I do so see vaapad without hyperbole as a style which is highly counter orientated ala channeling the opponents (darkness = momentum/leverage) against them, as well as being highly aggressive thus seeing multiple blades, due to the high speed and aggressive style of it.
I see makashi as being a style which would pick through and apart is gaping holes in defense due to its wide and random aggressive patterns of attack
Originally posted by Slash_KMC
"Six there were for generations of Jedi. The seventh, is not well-known. Powerful form it is. [b]Deadliest of all. But dangerous it is, for its master as well as its opponent. Few have studied. One student alone, to mastery has risen." - Yoda, Shatterpoint [/B]