Vaan at the beginning of RW(minutes/hours after the end of FFXII so its all the same) hung on to the back of a speeding off airship with one hand while calmly holding Penelo in the other. Wouldn't that count as superhuman? Unless a human can do it the way he did?
Not to mention how far he sent Vayne flying at the end of FFXII. if a normal person Vaan's size were to try to lift some one Vayne Novus size in anyway of his choosing and throw him, he still wouldn't go as far as Vayne fell. So its obvious he's above human as well if he was able to make him fly with a running stab and not even charging the sword with mist like Gabranth did
Only thing Tidus has on Vaan is that he can jump higher (as there isn't much proof Vaan can jump like him) and he's obviously a good swimmer. Two things that's not really useful for a fight
This is all irrelevant. Vaan punching a guy down some stairs is not enough to show anything about his actual fighting ability. The same can be said about Tidus in the water.
When it all comes down to it, Vaan is a mystery. He has no set skills and no set weapons, as Tidus does. He is completely and utterly a player generated character. The only way we can use him in a debate is by looking at RW, as apparently, though I have never played it, he has set skills and weapons in that game.
How is it irrelevant? Some one mentioned Tidus super human strength as an advantage and I posted that Vaan showed above human qualities with examples of when he displays this as well. and how is a display of physical power in any logical way not "show anything about his actual fighting ability". Part of fighting is strength. Duh
And doesn't Vaan use swords only in the zodiac job system?(serious question) Whatever though, it should be obvious that Vaan is a sword user. Aside from the fact that he always uses them in other games but shouldn't the fact that he is known to fight in desert and sewers and all he has in the beginning is a sword enough to let you know the guy uses a sword?
Also I don't want to use RW Vaan in this discussion as he would easily win imo. The guy goes one on one with the aegyl god at the end and some how survives(though he wasn't winning obviously) and he story wise actually owns the strongest sword Anastasia. A sword that can keep getting more powerful with, as far as I remember no limit
I guess I'll list again what we know Vaan could do(though I'm not lsting proof as I already did in previous posts so check if you don't know)
A good hunter as he, Penelo and the other sky pirates involvement with hunts were confirmed in later games, can use magic and a form of his quickenings(no proof on if its really destructive or just meh) can fight seeqs unarmed, and is physically strong. We know enough to debate about unless you ignore all this
No, that's not enough. The fact that he started with a sword means very little. As far as FFXII goes, he can use any weapon. And what of magic? Maybe he learns some, maybe he doesn't. Again, all up to the player. Skills? The same with magic.
The super human argument doesn't hold up. Normal people do those things in FF games. There is no mention of Vaan being a super human, nor is there any mention of Tidus being one either. They may be super human when compared to what WE can do, but really, most of the things everyone does in those games is more than we can do. You would have to say basically every character is super human.
If you don't want to use the RW Vaan that's fine, I can't debate that one anyway, since I've never played the game, but taking Vaan just from FFXII doesn't supply enough evidence either way. For the majority of the game, he is a background character. There isn't any clear representation of his abilities, other than he fights rats and has some skill dealing with the desert. Which isn't saying much. It certainly isn't enough to stand alone as valid reasoning for claiming him to be stronger than Tidus.
There isn't really going to be an answer to this question, if you ask me.
Originally posted by Sin_VolvagiaEveryone in the FFX verse can breathe underwater infinitely. Rikku did in the beginning of X with Tidus underwater, Wakka can, all those blitzball foo's can. In fact, when has someone drowned in FFX? haermm
So you know of people in real life that jump as high as Tidus, send people flying from a stadium to the bleachers with an elbow, and breathe underwater for long periods of time?
They're all fishies!
Anyway, now that we've all agreed Dissidia is canon, 4:09 to 4:28YouTube videoTidus would be having unrestricted buttsecks with Vaan saying "can't touch this nana nanana" 313
....ok, eww...lol
For starters, Vaan can use magic/quickenings. Any one in Ivalice can use magic. Have you been reading my posts? Magic is done by using the mist (which is all around you even though you can't see it) Higher density of mist, stronger magic. Magic is so easy even a 9 year child can master it(kytes) and I believe it was known that VAAN, the guy who has been rasing him taught him so
And no, Vaan powers would be super human in thier world. If Judge drace was so surprise by Bergan ability to flip her over his head and calling it un-human than how is Vaan sending someone flying in the same world not considered superhuman? And Bergan had to have nethicite's help for that. Not only that, but I think even in the Ivalice aliiance interview proclaims that the people are just normal humans(or close to it)
And what set abilities do we know that Tidus can do that isn't gameplay? What we know about Tidus is about as much as we know about Vaan. he uses a sword, is phiscally strong, can swim good, athletic, can jump high and is pretty fast. Also he could possibly use/learn magic but we don't know how strong
What we know about Vaan story wise is he uses a sword for his training regularly in the beginning and most likely in the end(as FFXII's ending is RW opening) but he could possibly use any weapon, he is pretty strong, he is a damn good hunter as it is confirmed he does the hunts in FFXII(not explaining for a third time again, read other post), using mist he could possibly use a form of quickenings and magic and just like Tidus we have no idea how strong it is. But we do vaguely know that with a higher density mist, stronger magick. We just don't know how stronger.
I don't see anything story wise that's putting Tidus ahead. Gameplay wise he has a set of abilities, story wise he not that far from Vaan
Also does Dissidia even count?
Also in case you're not sure how magic works in Ivalice I'll show some examples from the game. First of all Magicite is supposedly a more effective way to use and harness magic. Magic can be done without it, but its probably easier that way. Whether you want to give Vaan magicite or not in this battle, he could still use the mist(if the battle takes place in his world or a world similar)
quote from FFXII
"Naturally occurring energy, found in almost all regions of the world, affecting all living things, the climate, and even the land itself. Magick is but one of the diverse methods of harnessing the power of Mist, the most common being via its controlled release from magicite, an ore known to hold high concentrations of condensed Mist within its crystalline structure. For larger effects, a greater amount of Mist is required, making particularly rich magicite a valuable commodity. There are marked regional differences in the amount of Mist contained in the atmosphere and soil. While typically invisible to the naked eye, high densities of Mist will occasionally manifest in very visible phenomena. The highest concentrations of Mist can even do damage, leading to over-rapid changes in the environment, and violent behavior among animals and those more sensitive to the Mist's effects."
What we learn about that is Mist affects every living thing(including Vaan unless he is suddenly dead) and it is more common to use Magick through magicite because its far more simple.
That quote aside, not only that but using magic with stones is how most of thier advance technology work. Magic is so easy to use and harness that they use it for daily things like sky stones for airships, the pailings that protect the cities
So Vaan using Magick with or without a stone is as possible as any random guy in Ivalice who is smart enough to know what mist is or owns a spellstone
triple post but here is a link saying people in Ivalice are normal people(despite their use of magic lol)
http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3163528
"The stories are about ordinary, everyday people in the world -- not people with superhuman powers or abilities -- and that's what gives Ivalice its charm."
So what Vaan did would be considered superhuman by his world standards since his world is pretty normal aside from the whole mist thing
But alas I think I understand your point now. With all the evidence of strength and apparent skills for both characters, visually we don't see much from any of them so its hard to debate. We have evidence of strength and agility and all that stuff, but we don't actually know how either fight. Just some things they are capable of.
FF needs more fighting scenes lol
Okay, so Vaan has the ability to use magic, I never claimed he didn't. He also has the ability to use bows and arrows, guns, staffs, two handed swords, and every skill possible as well. Now, weather he DOES any of that, and what skills/magic he DOES learn is completely up to the player.
Tidus, however, has skills that are unique to him, as well as magic. Not the same at all.
In a debate with Cloud, we don't use materia, because that is completely up to the player to decide what materia is equipped. In the same way, since it's completely up to the player what spells and skills Vaan uses, we can't say what he does.
I don't think your quote really says anything either. If anything, it shows that Vaan isn't super human. I'm going to have to watch that punch scene, because I am having trouble making a character super human with no evidence from the storyline other than one punch in one scene.
I should have been more descriptive with what went along with the quote. The qoute was for when you said that the super human argument doesn't hold because normal people in a FF game can do that. The purpose was to prove in Vaan's world they are not supposed to be all super human like. But for some reason despite Ivalice being mainly normal people(with spells?) Vaan still displays what would be called superhuman by a normal person. It was a not so important point I poorly explained. Don't pay much attention to it lolz
And um can you tell me what skills are unique to Tidus?(unless its the ones I listed earlier) I haven't played FFX in a while, but If I remember can't anybody learn anything on the sphere grid? unless you're talking about some other unique moves he shows in like a cutscene or something?
Regardless I'll take magic out of the argument cause you have a point. We know he can possibly use magic but we don't really know what kind, how useful is it, and what he would use personally
So with things unique and known about Vaan, we have some strength since he is able to send Vayne novus flying, and RW's beginning he can hold on to the back of a speeding off airship with one hand while holding Penelo in the other. (again only counting this cause its literally within minutes/hours of FFXII's ending so unless Vaan took some roids on his flight there he should be the same)
He is confirmed to be a great hunter as hunts are pretty canon now, and has SOME sword experience(other weapons aren't exactly known storywise as you know except his sword and we don't know if he continued to refine his sword skills over the story. Implied in other games, but not 100% confirmed.) He can use a form of quickenings in the same way that he could have use magic as his quickenings are unique to him and quickenings are supported by story elements.
Does that sound more fair/accurate to a debate?
Also since you said you have no knowledge of RW I'll post a link to the airship scene(the very end of the video) I mentioned for Vaan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-_bXfywLa4&feature=related
Also Vayne sent flying from a stab from Vaan(skip to the end to see)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnMmAwF24Tk
He goes clearly over the railing(which disappears a moment after Vaan climbs over it?) and completely over steps. And notice how far away he was from the edge when Gabranth attempted to hurt him. That's beyond a normal human limits.
Also note unlike Gabranth Vaan didn't use any magic/mist on the blade like Gabranth
I have already posted the video about Vaan hitting Vayne in this thread, but it seems no one has cared. I post the video again so can be watched here. Watch around: 6:34
Tac, you said Tidus have already unique abilities, but you have no evidence that he can learn or use Magic, as in the game nothing suggest that Tidus is using Magic, on the other hand we have evidence that Vaan is able to do it.
Originally posted by heartlesshero17
And um can you tell me what skills are unique to Tidus?(unless its the ones I listed earlier) I haven't played FFX in a while, but If I remember can't anybody learn anything on the sphere grid? unless you're talking about some other unique moves he shows in like a cutscene or something?
It's true that anyone can learn all the attacks, but they do have abilities that are unique to the characters. Tidus, for example, has his own Sphere Grid, with his own abilities, you just have the option of having the other characters jump over to his if you want.
Originally posted by heartlesshero17
So with things unique and known about Vaan, we have some strength since he is able to send Vayne novus flying, and RW's beginning he can hold on to the back of a speeding off airship with one hand while holding Penelo in the other. (again only counting this cause its literally within minutes/hours of FFXII's ending so unless Vaan took some roids on his flight there he should be the same)
I don't know what happened in that scene. He had a sword... he charged him, then it all went white and he was flying through the air? He didn't stab him? He's immune to swords? Vaan decided to pick up a blade and then punch someone? 😑 Regardless, I would be wary to place super human onto someone for that one scene, especially if there is never any mention of it at any other point in the game. You would think that if Vaan is suppose to be super human, he would have made some mention of it at some point, or given some reason that he is super human.
Originally posted by heartlesshero17
He is confirmed to be a great hunter as hunts are pretty canon now,
But don't you take your team with you on those?
Originally posted by heartlesshero17
Does that sound more fair/accurate to a debate?
I think so.
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Tac, you said Tidus have already unique abilities, but you have no evidence that he can learn or use Magic, as in the game nothing suggest that Tidus is using Magic, on the other hand we have evidence that Vaan is able to do it.
What do you mean? Tidus can learn magic, it's one of his abilities.
Only people who were confirmed to go on hunts over the games were Vaan and Penelo. Balthier and Fran were loosley confirmed as well but not really 100%
and I forgot how the sphere grid works lolz. I need to play FFX again. I loved that game
And whether the story says so or not, we have no choice but to take that scene as it is. Whether Vaan punched him, stabbed him or kicked him, no way a human could make him fly like that. Probably just bad writing on Square's part. Or maybe they forgot that Ivalice people are supposed to human. Either way, a human Vaan's size shouldn't be able to do that