Originally posted by -Pr-
Superman chooses the temperature of his heat vision. It's not like, say, someone like Cyclops, whose beams are dependant on their focus to decide their force.
P.R, in Rucka's "Sacrifice" there is nothing to suggest Superman could have turned his vision up any higher than he did when was trying to toss Diana into the sun.
Especially not when Diana apparently tanks a wider-angled blast from him once they get back on Earth, at least to judge by the following artwork:
Salsa,
I should make clear:
I'm not using artwork alone to determine that Diana and Superman are entering the sun.
I am actually integrating a great deal of material to make my conclusions.
From Wonder Woman 219 itself you have Diana TELLING us that Superman is taking them to the sun. Then you have Superman, once they are near and at the sun, burning her with narrow-focused vision, his face inches away from her face, though, later, on Earth, we see what looks like Diana tanking wide-angle vision from several feet away.
That's from Wonder Woman 219 itself.
From Greg Rucka's interview, which P.R. confirmed, and which I posted in its entirety a few pages ago, we know that, from Greg Rucka's point of view, at least, Superman was going ALL out, doing EVERYTHING he could to take "Doomsday" (Diana) out in WW 219.
The scan you posted, where Superman apparently thinks to make "Doomsday" suffer, is from a different magazine.
Where, I don't know. I never saw it before now.
Possibly the "Sacrifice" trade? It wouldn't surprise me if it was a later book even by Rucka himself, but it is certainly not Wonder Woman #219. I'd be interested to know what book that is, really.
Again, in Wonder Woman 219, and Rucka's interview explaining things, Superman is going ALL out, Wonder Woman is not,
Superman is trying to KILL her, Wonder Woman is trying only to preserve them both; killing him is the last thing on her mind.
At the end, though, she DOES convince Max Lord that she will be the winner, at that point, injuries or no, if only the death of herself or Superman can end their fight.
But, at any rate, Wonder Woman in WW219 says "sun".
3rd degree-causing-heat vision but later tanking heat vision on Earth says "sun".
Resisting kryptonite enough to knock Wonder Woman out with a single punch AND send her several million miles from WHEREVER they happen to be (even Venus would be a long, LONG ways from Earth), says "sun".
Rucka follows that up with Wonder Woman surviving extreme exposure to radiation in a nuclear plant in Wonder Woman #220 AND a bath in molten metal in Wonder Woman #221, whereupon Diana says "The heat wraps me like a lover. It burns ... but I've experienced far WORSE, and far more recently".
That suggests "sun", too, though it is possible to make the argument she was referring to the nuclear heat in the power plant.
In combination with that is the fact that Superman's powers have been shown to increase, along with his strength, along with resistance to kyptonite, and that Superman, knowing this, historically opts to suncharge, to various degrees, to face greater challenges.
This happened in Man of Tomorrow #13, this happened a few months prior to WW 219 when Superman fought Darkseid for his cousin Kara's sake, later imprisoning him in the Source Wall, this happened famously in Our Worlds at War, which P.R. mentioned only a page ago.
All this too, says "sun".
The only things, in fact, which do not suggest "sun" are the time readout Max gives, unconvincing because Superman so often would travel at faster-than-light speeds throughout this era, and a few people, usually Superman fans, saying they think they saw somewhere that Greg Rucka mentioned in an interview he originally intended Venus.
2 points possibly in favor of Venus, 5 or 6 points in favor of the Sun.
I, as you yourself are, am going with the sun.
The 6 or 7 panels of ARTWORK in Wonder Woman 219 represent only half of the support for that.
Originally posted by biensalsa
Don't put words in my mouth, I said there are other light sources to account for, I should know as I draw too as a hobby.
So if there is more than one light source, you have to take into account the other light sources as well and see how far or close they are compared to the object.
And if you're doing that, you're saying the same thing I am, and essentially the same thing I said earlier:
the position of the sun does not account for the weird lighting effects we see.
What part of what you're saying do you think contradicts that?
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Salsa,There's a certain amount of respect people should have and demonstrate for one another. For the most part you have treated me with respect and I believe I have done so with you.
Ditto for Q99 with me. I believe for the most part that is true with P.R. as well.I DO have limited time.
I am not interested in getting anyone in trouble.
I am not interested in reporting anyone.
Moreover, I believe that, in order to have a discussion of TRUE quality, you need to allow people who have different viewpoints to express their beliefs.
But there are ways to do that while maintaining civility.Quite simply, I am not going to bother interacting with anyone who does not show basic courtesy. I'll spend time instead patiently covering the points and material brought to me by those who do.
For so far, this IS a good thread. It should remain open.
Other posters have said as much. In terms of traffic, it has gone from the 4,000-whatever it was at when I got here to over 6,000 by view count today. In about 1 month's time.
People are interested in having the discussion.
You yourself are. So am I. We wouldn't be here otherwise.
And we've barely scratched the surface.So let's continue.
Agree, is nice to have a civil debate and I did not noticed how much traffic has gone up. Interesting.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
As far as I can tell, "cherry picking" is an unanswerable charge regardless of merit or unmerit.I ask what I think are relevant questions or clarifying questions.
Regarding JLA/JSA Virtue and Vice, I don't recall seeing Bizarro in the trade at all. He may very well be there. It's just that [B]I
don't recall any scene with him. I'd appreciate you showing the scene you're talking about, in fact. [/B]
It is on the JLA/JSA Secret files
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
As far as Superman and Sentinel being portrayed as the most powerful people on either team, I don't agree.
Perhaps there IS a scene like that. Again, if there is, I missed it, I'd like to be shown it. For there is certainly very little to back that up in the trade, at least on Superman's part. Captain Marvel takes him out with one strike, and Superman STAYS out from that single strike for quite some time. Then Captain Marvel takes down Black Adam and absorbs his power. Then Captain Marvel depowers and absorbs the power of the REST of his family, i.e. Freddy and Mary Marvel.
If he knocked Superman cold with one strike at ... what 1/3rd the level he's at by the mid or 2/3rd point of the book?
Then why should I believe Superman would have anything for him or even belong in the same sentence in terms of power afterwards?As for Dr. Fate, team member of the JSA, HE teleports Sentinel (original Green Lantern Alan Scott) and Superman AND several of their JLA/JSA teammates at will.
What are you going to show me that could possibly prove Superman has anything to offer a man who can and DOES send him to a place that apparently depowers him in 5 seconds?
Twice if I'm not mistaken. Though I very well could be.
I DO still think you have some other comic in mind.
Either that or you chose one that poorly backs up its claims.
Abi already responded to this "Both mary and freddy transform way later in the comics when they see the affected heroes. Cap was at full power, used momentum, magic weakness and a double handed sucker punch to knock superman out. Superman knocked cap out while in mind control with two punches to face in JSA 34. Just check out fate's fight with Black lantern Kal-L alongside JSA where Kal-L oneshotted fate and superman's fight with the same guy which was practically a stalemate."
And the beginning and the end of virtue and vice the portrayal of Sentinel and Superman above even the members of their own teams backed by the Atoms statement of Jla/Jsa kind of gives the idea of those two being the top dogs of their teams, don't you think?
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/Compare/jla-jsa-002.jpg
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/Compare/jla-jsa-003.jpg
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/Compare/jla-jsa-008.jpg
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/Compare/jla-jsa-090.jpg
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/Compare/jla-jsa-091.jpg
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Salsa,I re-posted some of my earlier quotes and will likely re-post a few more to make it clear:
I am NOT arguing that Wonder Woman is more "powerful" than Superman.Power is NOT the same as physical strength, which I DO believe Diana has in greater degree.
You mention the language barrier between us, and I think that does play a part.
I imagine the words for "power" and "strength" are virtually interchangeable in Spanish.
I can only think of the words "poder" and "fuerza" or "fuerte" offhand, for that matter.
I am certain there are more.For instance, one might argue that Superman can take more punishment than Diana.
And one would generally be right.One might argue that Superman has greater heat vision than Diana.
And one again would be right.Breath-holding ability?
Resistance to cold and/or heat?
Better freeze breath?
Perform better against really, really hard-punchers?Conversely, in a room of red lights, or Fate's tower, or an illusion-maker, or planet Mogo, or even a few dozen meters from a Black hole against relatively mundane competition,
Diana might be expected to perform better -- as she has.
I know the difference between Power and strength and Diana neither more powerful or stronger than Superman. She may perform better in certain magical instances or when Superman might not have any powers, but that does not make Diana more powerful or stronger, that just makes Superman handicapped.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
But how many of the things mentioned above are an even remotely reasonable measure of pure physical strength?Again, I am NOT basing this on her showing in "Sacrifice", either.
I am discussing Greg Rucka's "Sacrifice" because YOU are discussing "Sacrifice", because Sacrifice IS a natural starting point for any debate OR simple discussion on Superman and Wonder Woman, but especially their fight history, and, as courtesy.
But I am basing the idea that she is physically stronger by taking absolutely everything I know of the characters from the period I am familiar with, from the period beyond which I know writers RESUMED dedication to showing Diana as she was before
(it is NOT actually the case that Diana 2003-2011 is stronger, at least by measuring relatively traditional mass-moving/manipulating strength feats)
than she was at previous points in history.Along the way, though, I have little problem with addressing anything else you want to bring up.
It's often enjoyable reading and discussing things with you.
I suspect I've actually been doing it a fairly long time.
I will suggest to you, to inform yourself better on the Superman subject. He does have better strength feats than Wonder Woman. And is portrayed as generally stronger than her in a lot of the DC books, when ever He does not performs as it should, there is usually some context, that people should be aware of.
Even Fangirl acknowledged Superman as being more powerful than Wonder Woman, she was arguing that Wonder Woman was Superman's equal on strength, which I still have not seen why.
I mean I can see why some people may think that, but then, you see at the context and then, You realize; "ah!, that is why"
I know she is very strong as I told you before, stronger than what many will believe and many believe she is "teen titans strong" but she is stronger than that. I know that.
I will actually believe she is stronger than Martian Manhunter, but not physically stronger than Orion or CM
Which is why I believe people who know more about Wonder Woman should share their knowledge in respect threads.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Salsa,It would be GREATLY appreciated if you said what comic your scans are from.
In the meantime, by the numbers ...
1) Note that the wide-angle vision shown in that first scan loses "scorching" quality as it spreads out, even as the size of the beam makes it LOOK more impressive. No one on Earth dies as a result of Superman pouring it on. Because it's not as hot. Not even as hot as normal heat vision is.
In this respect, heat vision seems to behave like normal light (and perhaps even laser light, though I cannot be completely sure) , which becomes more intense, energetic and hot as it becomes more and more narrowly FOCUSED, not spread out.
Would appreciate knowing the comicbook that takes place in, though.
2) In your Orion scan ... I have no idea what I am even looking at.
What comic is THAT from? What's supposed to be happening?3) When I click on your 3rd link, I only get a "Page not found" error message.
Usually most of my scans have the issue number on the link
First scan says in the end AOS620 ADVENTURES OF SUPERMAN #620
Second scans New Gods #10
Superman is bigger than normal in here, He is cautherizing a HUGE tear in the cosmos. That huge tear was swallowing several worlds at the same time, Just scale the size. He will do the same but on scale.
Third scan AOS 618
He is cooling down and Heating up a WHITE dwarf star.
And yes PR is correct, Superman can regulate his HV
He can rev it up
or He can melt steel INSTANTLY
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Salsa,I should make clear:
I'm not using artwork alone to determine that Diana and Superman are entering the sun.
I am actually integrating a great deal of material to make my conclusions.
From Wonder Woman 219 itself you have Diana TELLING us that Superman is taking them to the sun. Then you have Superman, once they are near and at the sun, burning her with narrow-focused vision, his face inches away from her face, though, later, on Earth, we see what looks like Diana tanking wide-angle vision from several feet away.
That's from Wonder Woman 219 itself.
From Greg Rucka's interview, which P.R. confirmed, and which I posted in its entirety a few pages ago, we know that, from Greg Rucka's point of view, at least, Superman was going ALL out, doing EVERYTHING he could to take "Doomsday" (Diana) out in WW 219.The scan you posted, where Superman apparently thinks to make "Doomsday" suffer, is from a different magazine.
Where, I don't know. I never saw it before now.
Possibly the "Sacrifice" trade? It wouldn't surprise me if it was a later book even by Rucka himself, but it is certainly not Wonder Woman #219. I'd be interested to know what book that is, really.Again, in Wonder Woman 219, and Rucka's interview explaining things, Superman is going ALL out, Wonder Woman is not,
Superman is trying to KILL her, Wonder Woman is trying only to preserve them both; killing him is the last thing on her mind.
At the end, though, she DOES convince Max Lord that she will be the winner, at that point, injuries or no, if only the death of herself or Superman can end their fight.But, at any rate, Wonder Woman in WW219 says "sun".
3rd degree-causing-heat vision but later tanking heat vision on Earth says "sun".
Resisting kryptonite enough to knock Wonder Woman out with a single punch AND send her several million miles from WHEREVER they happen to be (even Venus would be a long, LONG ways from Earth), says "sun".
Rucka follows that up with Wonder Woman surviving extreme exposure to radiation in a nuclear plant in Wonder Woman #220 AND a bath in molten metal in Wonder Woman #221, whereupon Diana says "The heat wraps me like a lover. It burns ... but I've experienced far WORSE, and far more recently".
That suggests "sun", too, though it is possible to make the argument she was referring to the nuclear heat in the power plant.
In combination with that is the fact that Superman's powers have been shown to increase, along with his strength, along with resistance to kyptonite, and that Superman, knowing this, historically opts to suncharge, to various degrees, to face greater challenges.
This happened in Man of Tomorrow #13, this happened a few months prior to WW 219 when Superman fought Darkseid for his cousin Kara's sake, later imprisoning him in the Source Wall, this happened famously in Our Worlds at War, which P.R. mentioned only a page ago.All this too, says "sun".
The only things, in fact, which do not suggest "sun" are the time readout Max gives, unconvincing because Superman so often would travel at faster-than-light speeds throughout this era, and a few people, usually Superman fans, saying they think they saw somewhere that Greg Rucka mentioned in an interview he originally intended Venus.
2 points possibly in favor of Venus, 5 or 6 points in favor of the Sun.
I, as you yourself are, am going with the sun.
The 6 or 7 panels of ARTWORK in Wonder Woman 219 represent only half of the support for that.
The scan with Doomsday is Adventures of Superman 643 written by Greg Rucka, trying to justify Superman not killing Diana right there in the sun, When He actually could have killed her instead He says He wants to make Doomsday SUFFER, So it implies that He is actually not going all out as He wants to have Doomsday to suffer, he has to be careful not to kill him.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
P.R, in Rucka's "Sacrifice" there is nothing to suggest Superman could have turned his vision up any higher than he did when was trying to toss Diana into the sun.Especially not when Diana apparently tanks a wider-angled blast from him once they get back on Earth, at least to judge by the following artwork:
Maybe, but there are actual instances where he can measure his heat vision's temperature independent of the size of the beam/s. Several in fact.
Again, though, this is assuming a Superman in full control of his faculties, not the giant rage-monster that diana fought.
artist v audience
(KaraMgann scan 5 of 7)
This encounter took place in the pages of Teen Titans, Volume 3.
I think it was issue 41 or thereabouts.
This scene always stayed in my mind because I remember having to explain to a poster "why Megan seems so strong against Supergirl when Kara manhandled Martian Manhunter".
And the answer, of course, is that, while Megan IS strong, it's not her strength in relation to Manhunter or Kara that's giving Kara problems, it's the fact that she's turning invisible, which causes Kara a moment of confusion and surprise. Megan uses that to catch Kara off-guard, increasing the effectiveness of her counter.
Later the customer admitted that his eyesight was bad!
I never imagined encountering that as the reason for a fan mis-interpreting something in a forum.
I realized Kara's dialogue in such a case would merely confuse without some third party explaning that to him.
Some challenge!
Comparing the 2 episodes, I'm always struck, 4th wall, by the fact that the artist in Teen Titans actually probably put in MORE effort than the artist that protrayed the Jonnz/DKara encounter.
The Teen Titans artist had to draw TWO figures in all of his panels, after all.
By contrast, the Jonnz/DKara artist only had to draw ONE combatant, a sort of pantomime action, for most of his.
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Source: Supergirl #4, Volume 5
Writer: Jeph Loeb
Penciller: Ian Churchill
Date: February 2006
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http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Supergirl_Vol_5_4
Originally posted by biensalsa
I draw ... as a hobby...
if there is more than one light source, you have to take into account the other light sources as well and see how far or close they are compared to the object...
It bears repeating: fictional reality is not real.
Artist's convention does not always reflect what an actual observer would see if some of these events were taking place in real life.
How would you explain the lighting in scan 3 of 7, shown once again here, for instance?
Is Miss Martian so powerful that she moved the Sun across the sky to intimidate Kara as she punched her?
Did she get inside Kara's mind and create an illusion for the practice?
Again, Salsa, there's a limit to how well any comic book will hold up to real-world scrutiny, and there ARE sometimes real-world reasons for what we see on the comic page.
I have respect for the work of many artists, too.
Doesn't mean they ALWAYS draw things that do the best job of supporting the story the team is trying to tell.
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Source: Teen Titans #48, Volume 3
Writer: Adam Beechen
Penciller: Al Barrionuevo
Date: August 2007
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http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Teen_Titans_Vol_3_48
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
It bears repeating: fictional reality is not real.
Artist's convention does not always reflect what an actual observer would see if some of these events were taking place in real life.How would you explain the lighting in scan 3 of 7, shown once again here, for instance?
Is Miss Martian so powerful that she moved the Sun across the sky to intimidate Kara as she punched her?
Did she get inside Kara's mind and create an illusion for the practice?
Again, Salsa, there's a limit to how well any comic book will hold up to real-world scrutiny, and there ARE sometimes real-world reasons for what we see on the comic page.
I have respect for the work of many artists, too.
Doesn't mean they ALWAYS draw things that do the best job of supporting the story the team is trying to tell.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Source: Teen Titans #48, Volume 3
Writer: Adam Beechen
Penciller: Al Barrionuevo
Date: August 2007
---------------------------------------------------------------------
http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Teen_Titans_Vol_3_48
