Ignoring that SBP has tooled her on like, what, two different occasions (Infinite Crisis and Sinestro Corps War)? Actually, in the latter, I am pretty sure he overpowered her like, twice, once in the dogpile, and another time when he grabbed her and slammed her into Superman (Might have been the other way around, or it might have been Supergirl, dunno).
... That still doesn't explain why he didn't make the list, if that person considered him on her level, lol.
P.R.,
I'm curious as to how much of this thread you've actually read through?
For many of the questions you've been asking the past 3 pages or so were answered, addressed, or explained earlier.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Don't know what standard you're using for your Superman/Wonder Woman comparison ...Mine is more or less this, in regards to physical strength: Unifying just about EVERY thing I know about either character, their background, how their powers work, their character limitations, plot limitations, overall performance in relatively objective tests such as lifting known weights, competitions against each other and other mutual foes and powerful beings, origins, and basic concepts, Wonder Woman 2003-2011 would win an armwrestling match against Superman, and nearly any other contest that involved pure physical strength.
Note that one primary reason for the dates are that I did not start forming a significant DC reading catalogue until around 2004.Most of my experience of either Superman or Wonder Woman is from those dates or thereabouts. Wonder Woman pre-2003 or so may very well be a far less impressive being than the one we've had the past decade.
Originally posted by -Pr-
honestly before you continue, I think you should read Our Worlds At War [OWAW], if you haven't already. Have you?
I've read parts of Our Worlds At War.
Discussions about it tend to involve the following:
-- the injury of Wonder Woman after something called an "Imperiex Probe" is cracked open, exposing her to some sort of explosive, hot, and nearly lethal energy
-- the difficulty of damaging said probe for most heroes
-- the death of Hippolyta after simultaneously destroying a key probe and stopping a "hollowing" machine that otherwise would have meant the deaths of thousands
-- the induction of Darkseid to the side of the heroes and Wonder Woman sowing a seed of kindness within him
-- Superman's most talked about but rarely shown and perhaps most extreme sun-enhanced feat, the moving of Pluto-sized "Warworld" against powerful rockets, which, in conjunction with the efforts of the other heroes, somehow effects the final defeat of Imperiex
I'd appreciate if you'd read a few of the posts I posted previously, which I'll re-list here for your reading convenience after this message (IF my Internet continues to hold up),
and then proceed with what you think I should be getting from Our Worlds At War that my earlier list for criterion fails in some way to consider.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I've read parts of Our Worlds At War.Discussions about it tend to involve the following:
-- the injury of Wonder Woman after something called an "Imperiex Probe" is cracked open, exposing her to some sort of explosive, hot, and nearly lethal energy
-- the difficulty of damaging said probe for most heroes
-- the death of Hippolyta after simultaneously destroying a key probe and stopping a "hollowing" machine that otherwise would have meant the deaths of thousands
-- the induction of Darkseid to the side of the heroes and Wonder Woman sowing a seed of kindness within him
-- Superman's most talked about but rarely shown and perhaps most extreme sun-enhanced feat, the moving of Pluto-sized "Warworld" against powerful rockets, which, in conjunction with the efforts of the other heroes, somehow effects the final defeat of ImperiexI'd appreciate if you'd read a few of the posts I posted previously, which I'll re-list here for your reading convenience after this message (IF my Internet continues to hold up),
and then proceed with what you think I should be getting from Our Worlds At War that my earlier list for criterion fails in some way to consider.
Our Worlds At War, in short, is the single greatest example of WHY Superman is considered to be the top dog when it comes to heroes in DC. The entire book, from start to finish, showcases this, and is the pinnacle of the runs Casey and Loeb had done on the books.
And that's without sun-amping.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Are you sure you have the right comic?
Yes, I am, you are just cherry picking there. Please don't push me to cherry pick on WW
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I am actually happy you brought up this trade.It illustrates the point I was making before, that Wonder Woman is consistently undersold, to a degree people are probably not consciously aware of.
For instance, it is true that Superman gets wasted in the fights in this book.
Everybody does.
But when it comes time to perform a feat that symbolizes "strength" to the average person, he is still allowed to do said chore.
There is absolutely no reason the creative staff could not have had Diana do the following, for instance, yet who gets the honor?
And how does that vote go normally?
What is the overall impression people will get once you start getting an established HISTORY of Character A, though fully capable of doing what Character B does, seldom if ever chosen by writers to DO any of the things Character B does, and instead always giving them to Character B?
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Source: JLA/JSA Virtue and Vice
Writer: Geoff Johns
Penciller: Carlos Pacheco
Date: December 2002
---------------------------------------------------------------------
http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/JLA/JSA:_Virtue_and_Vice
I will quote a logical answer here:
Originally posted by NemeBro
Or maybe the writers give Superman the more impressive physical feats because he is physically stronger?But no that can't be right, huh?
Kind of makes sense, Don't You think?
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
PIS is an acronym for "Plot Induced Stupidity".I'd be lying if I said I agreed with you.
In Spanish, calling it that might work.
Not so in English.
Here's the problem:
The plot of a story is something a writer crafts.In the case of Wonder Woman 219, that would be Greg Rucka.
However, I don't believe what we see is due to HIS direction.I believe the problem, instead, lies with how the ARTISTS chose to portray or omit action.
As I said before, the logical scenario is
Wonder Woman frees self,
Wonder Woman moves AWAY from burning heat (toward Earth),
Wonder Woman nevertheless must advance to retrieve friend (toward Sun),
Wonder Woman is repelled ... all the way back to Earth.Any failure to show that I would blame on the artists, not Rucka.
Really, now You are blaming the artist?, but the artist ins the same who is giving You the impression of Wonder Woman Surviving an "amped all out" Superman.
And as far as I remember Artist work HAS to be approved FIRST before entering in publication, In any case this "blaming" the artist is kind of silly here, as We are not talking about the Hulk fighting snakes.
Wonder Woman's back was facing towards the sun and her front was lit, because there was another source of lighting, actually there is 3 sources of light, so seriously trying to blame the artist and the sources of light to explain why Diana was saved from the sun's core falls into the silly.
And Wonder Woman free herself not by strength but by something called pain compliance by attacking the Superman's eyes, not by over powering him.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Especially since there are other miscues. For instance, as I said earlier, and you yourself corroborated, the sun does not explain the weird lighting effects we see. Diana is front lit when her BACK is facing the sun? But it makes sense if you say the artists disregarded whatever location was chosen for the sun and used the glow of Bruce's kryptonite ring as the light source.
Similarly, it makes little sense in English for Diana to say to herself,
"I've got to free my hands".Her hands aren't being held!
It's her NECK Kal has ahold of.
Diana's hands are free to do whatever they want.
Don't put words in my mouth, I said there are other light sources to account for, I should know as I draw too as a hobby. So if there is more than one light source, you have to take into account the other light sources as well and see how far or close they are compared to the object.
and "I've got to free my hands"? really? Pardon her if she cannot make coherent thoughts after all she is facing Superman and He is about to make her to take a nap on the sun, So she will think and do whatever she can to save herself, even if it does not make sense to you. I guess she must be in shock because of the 3rd degree burn that she has across her face, that she even felt how it burned her bones, how you feel your bones burning?
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Similarly she grabs Supe's eyes with her fingers, painfully stopping his sunward rush. Shouldn't he be favoring or trying to protect his face afterward, then? Yet the next panel shows Clark doubled over, as if something hit him in the stomach. Or perhaps even someplace ... sensitive. Certainly whatever it is that transpires is enough to give Diana the chance to try to reverse fight action.And it may or may not have been explicitly enough shown for readers to come to a correct and definitive conclusion.
But, if it's not, I DON'T believe that is the fault of Greg Rucka.
Wow, this trying to discredit the artist goes far now, He is double over as in something that caused him a lot of pain, geez my friend! As if You have never experienced that much of pain. You have not? I have, I got hit in the face by a two by four and I doubled over in pain.
So in short, you believe the Artist is the one who saved Diana from certain death at the Sun's core?
Let me see and make this fight last less than a page
Instead of this:
This:
or this:
He should have used one of this:
or this:
or this
Then I will believe She is facing an all out Superman
Originally posted by -Pr-
Our Worlds At War, in short, is the single greatest example of WHY Superman is considered to be the top dog when it comes to heroes in DC. The entire book, from start to finish, showcases this, and is the pinnacle of the runs Casey and Loeb had done on the books.And that's without sun-amping.
I was going to bring the examples of OWAW but that is 2001 and I knew He was asking for 2003 to 2011
Not that it changes anything anyway, it has been portrayed like that since forever.
Oh one more and last thing.
I think You are confusing Rucka's ability to write Women and portray them as STRONG and confuse this as Wonder Woman being more powerful than Superman.
If any Rucka is only showing that Wonder Woman is not a Damsel in distress and she is pretty much capable of putting a fight vs Superman but so is Super girl and Power girl. It does not mean they are more powerful.
Salsa,
There's a certain amount of respect people should have and demonstrate for one another. For the most part you have treated me with respect and I believe I have done so with you.
Ditto for Q99 with me. I believe for the most part that is true with P.R. as well.
I DO have limited time.
I am not interested in getting anyone in trouble.
I am not interested in reporting anyone.
Moreover, I believe that, in order to have a discussion of TRUE quality, you need to allow people who have different viewpoints to express their beliefs.
But there are ways to do that while maintaining civility.
Quite simply, I am not going to bother interacting with anyone who does not show basic courtesy. I'll spend time instead patiently covering the points and material brought to me by those who do.
For so far, this IS a good thread. It should remain open.
Other posters have said as much. In terms of traffic, it has gone from the 4,000-whatever it was at when I got here to over 6,000 by view count today. In about 1 month's time.
People are interested in having the discussion.
You yourself are. So am I. We wouldn't be here otherwise.
And we've barely scratched the surface.
So let's continue.
Originally posted by biensalsa
You are just cherry picking there. Please don't push me to cherry pick on WW
As far as I can tell, "cherry picking" is an unanswerable charge regardless of merit or unmerit.
I ask what I think are relevant questions or clarifying questions.
Regarding JLA/JSA Virtue and Vice, I don't recall seeing Bizarro in the trade at all. He may very well be there. It's just that I don't recall any scene with him. I'd appreciate you showing the scene you're talking about, in fact.
As far as Superman and Sentinel being portrayed as the most powerful people on either team, I don't agree.
Perhaps there IS a scene like that. Again, if there is, I missed it, I'd like to be shown it. For there is certainly very little to back that up in the trade, at least on Superman's part. Captain Marvel takes him out with one strike, and Superman STAYS out from that single strike for quite some time. Then Captain Marvel takes down Black Adam and absorbs his power. Then Captain Marvel depowers and absorbs the power of the REST of his family, i.e. Freddy and Mary Marvel.
If he knocked Superman cold with one strike at ... what 1/3rd the level he's at by the mid or 2/3rd point of the book?
Then why should I believe Superman would have anything for him or even belong in the same sentence in terms of power afterwards?
As for Dr. Fate, team member of the JSA, HE teleports Sentinel (original Green Lantern Alan Scott) and Superman AND several of their JLA/JSA teammates at will.
What are you going to show me that could possibly prove Superman has anything to offer a man who can and DOES send him to a place that apparently depowers him in 5 seconds?
Twice if I'm not mistaken. Though I very well could be.
I DO still think you have some other comic in mind.
Either that or you chose one that poorly backs up its claims.
I posted this earlier.
It doesn't seem to have gotten read, and I don't think we'll make any true progress until you do, so I'm posting it a second time.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Salsa,I appreciate the time you've spent here.
You've taken the time to present your own viewpoint with sources and visual corroboration AND taken time to try to understand me, all without making any true direct attack on me.Extremely rare in any debate thread I've been in, to say the least.
Again, much appreciated.You keep asking about the haymaker scene in Sacrifice so I'll give you the truest and most complete answer I can.
I regard something as "Plot Induced Stupidity (PIS)" on a WRITER's part when I believe the writer is responsible for what we see AND that the action makes no sense APART from moving a story forward.
I don't think Wonder Woman #219 truly fails either point as far as Greg Rucka is concerned.
Let's be honest to admit: We ARE discussing works that are entirely fictional. The characters do not exist. They are not taking the actions we are debating. They never did and never will. They do not have true history. There is little if any true continuity. What we see is largely determined by company thoughts on what will sell to the widest range of people and whatever few loyalties employees hold to their peers, the creators before them, and/or their creative work(s).
Also, to some extent, the zeitgeist of the day, varying according to the era and decade.All of the aforementioned is what "really" determines what happens in a comic. I suppose that is what is termed "fourth wall". In general, the most successful fiction works make a person forget nearly everything mentioned above, and the story makes sense according to it's own semblance of internal logic.
I mention this because there comes a point where, being pure fiction, any story, no matter how well-written, is going to fall apart. It's not going to hold up to argumentation because arguments depend on facts, and, in comics, there AREN'T really any -- once you take it far enough. The challenge, of course, is to see how far you can go until you approach that point!
Needed to say that, now, assuming my Internet service holds, let's begin ...
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=525118&pagenumber=7
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Salsa,There's a certain amount of respect people should have and demonstrate for one another. For the most part you have treated me with respect and I believe I have done so with you.
Ditto for Q99 with me. I believe for the most part that is true with P.R. as well.I DO have limited time.
I am not interested in getting anyone in trouble.
I am not interested in reporting anyone.
Moreover, I believe that, in order to have a discussion of TRUE quality, you need to allow people who have different viewpoints to express their beliefs.
But there are ways to do that while maintaining civility.Quite simply, I am not going to bother interacting with anyone who does not show basic courtesy. I'll spend time instead patiently covering the points and material brought to me by those who do.
For so far, this IS a good thread. It should remain open.
Other posters have said as much. In terms of traffic, it has gone from the 4,000-whatever it was at when I got here to over 6,000 by view count today. In about 1 month's time.
People are interested in having the discussion.
You yourself are. So am I. We wouldn't be here otherwise.
And we've barely scratched the surface.So let's continue.
As far as I can tell, "cherry picking" is an unanswerable charge regardless of merit or unmerit.
I ask what I think are relevant questions or clarifying questions.
Regarding JLA/JSA Virtue and Vice, I don't recall seeing Bizarro in the trade at all. He may very well be there. It's just that [B]I
don't recall any scene with him. I'd appreciate you showing the scene you're talking about, in fact.As far as Superman and Sentinel being portrayed as the most powerful people on either team, I don't agree.
Perhaps there IS a scene like that. Again, if there is, I missed it, I'd like to be shown it. For there is certainly very little to back that up in the trade, at least on Superman's part. Captain Marvel takes him out with one strike, and Superman STAYS out from that single strike for quite some time. Then Captain Marvel takes down Black Adam and absorbs his power. Then Captain Marvel depowers and absorbs the power of the REST of his family, i.e. Freddy and Mary Marvel.
If he knocked Superman cold with one strike at ... what 1/3rd the level he's at by the mid or 2/3rd point of the book?
Then why should I believe Superman would have anything for him or even belong in the same sentence in terms of power afterwards?As for Dr. Fate, team member of the JSA, HE teleports Sentinel (original Green Lantern Alan Scott) and Superman AND several of their JLA/JSA teammates at will.
What are you going to show me that could possibly prove Superman has anything to offer a man who can and DOES send him to a place that apparently depowers him in 5 seconds?
Twice if I'm not mistaken. Though I very well could be.
I DO still think you have some other comic in mind.
Either that or you chose one that poorly backs up its claims. [/B]
Originally posted by biensalsa
I think You are confusing Rucka's ability to write Women and portray them as STRONG and confuse this as Wonder Woman being more powerful than Superman.
Salsa,
I re-posted some of my earlier quotes and will likely re-post a few more to make it clear:
I am NOT arguing that Wonder Woman is more "powerful" than Superman.
Power is NOT the same as physical strength, which I DO believe Diana has in greater degree.
You mention the language barrier between us, and I think that does play a part.
I imagine the words for "power" and "strength" are virtually interchangeable in Spanish.
I can only think of the words "poder" and "fuerza" or "fuerte" offhand, for that matter.
I am certain there are more.
For instance, one might argue that Superman can take more punishment than Diana.
And one would generally be right.
One might argue that Superman has greater heat vision than Diana.
And one again would be right.
Breath-holding ability?
Resistance to cold and/or heat?
Better freeze breath?
Perform better against really, really hard-punchers?
Conversely, in a room of red lights, or Fate's tower, or an illusion-maker, or planet Mogo, or even a few dozen meters from a Black hole against relatively mundane competition,
Diana might be expected to perform better -- as she has.
But how many of the things mentioned above are an even remotely reasonable measure of pure physical strength?
Again, I am NOT basing this on her showing in "Sacrifice", either.
I am discussing Greg Rucka's "Sacrifice" because YOU are discussing "Sacrifice", because Sacrifice IS a natural starting point for any debate OR simple discussion on Superman and Wonder Woman, but especially their fight history, and, as courtesy.
But I am basing the idea that she is physically stronger by taking absolutely everything I know of the characters from the period I am familiar with, from the period beyond which I know writers RESUMED dedication to showing Diana as she was before
(it is NOT actually the case that Diana 2003-2011 is stronger, at least by measuring relatively traditional mass-moving/manipulating strength feats)
than she was at previous points in history.
Along the way, though, I have little problem with addressing anything else you want to bring up.
It's often enjoyable reading and discussing things with you.
I suspect I've actually been doing it a fairly long time.
Originally posted by biensalsa
[Rucka] should have used ... this:or this:
or this
Then I will believe She is facing an all out Superman
Salsa,
It would be GREATLY appreciated if you said what comic your scans are from.
In the meantime, by the numbers ...
1) Note that the wide-angle vision shown in that first scan loses "scorching" quality as it spreads out, even as the size of the beam makes it LOOK more impressive. No one on Earth dies as a result of Superman pouring it on. Because it's not as hot. Not even as hot as normal heat vision is.
In this respect, heat vision seems to behave like normal light (and perhaps even laser light, though I cannot be completely sure) , which becomes more intense, energetic and hot as it becomes more and more narrowly FOCUSED, not spread out.
Would appreciate knowing the comicbook that takes place in, though.
2) In your Orion scan ... I have no idea what I am even looking at.
What comic is THAT from? What's supposed to be happening?
3) When I click on your 3rd link, I only get a "Page not found" error message.
