Superman Vs Wonderwoman

Originally posted by abhilegend
I'll put it bluntly, what are you trying to prove here? You asked for the proof that superman>diana in strength and I provided. Now its your turn to present your case. Don't waste both of our time with all these irrelevant posts.

Abhi, I'll be even more blunt.

If you do not know, you should learn what the phrase "argumentum ad hominem" means because you've been using it nearly every other post. You continue to try to attack and ridicule me with every other message you put up here. Your behavior got so bad that P.R. called you on it. You yourself admitted that you were being hostile, apologized to HIM when your apology should have been to ME, and you STILL continue with your sniping. It won't matter what you post.
Until you learn to behave with civility, and unless your next message is an apology, you need not concern yourself with the thought you will EVER again be directly addressed by me.

Have a good day.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Abhi, I'll be even more blunt.

If you do not know, you should learn what the phrase "argumentum ad hominem" means because you've been using it nearly every other post. You continue to try to attack and ridicule me with every other message you put up here. Your behavior got so bad that P.R. called you on it. You yourself admitted that you were being hostile, apologized to HIM when your apology should have been to ME, and you STILL continue with your sniping. It won't matter what you post.
Until you learn to behave with civility, and unless your next message is an apology, you need not concern yourself with the thought you will EVER again be directly addressed by me.

Have a good day.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
It bears repeating: fictional reality is not real.
Artist's convention does not always reflect what an actual observer would see if some of these events were taking place in real life.

How would you explain the lighting in scan 3 of 7, shown once again here, for instance?

Is Miss Martian so powerful that she moved the Sun across the sky to intimidate Kara as she punched her?

Did she get inside Kara's mind and create an illusion for the practice?

Again, Salsa, there's a limit to how well any comic book will hold up to real-world scrutiny, and there ARE sometimes real-world reasons for what we see on the comic page.

I have respect for the work of many artists, too.

Doesn't mean they ALWAYS draw things that do the best job of supporting the story the team is trying to tell.

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Source: Teen Titans #48, Volume 3
Writer: Adam Beechen
Penciller: Al Barrionuevo
Date: August 2007
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http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Teen_Titans_Vol_3_48

Not really, miss Martian is just hitting Super girl, the light effect is just communicating an impact force. We see no light in the back before the impact and then we see light at the moment of the impact.

Was this stated to have taken place close to the sun?

Originally posted by biensalsa
miss Martian is just hitting Super girl, the light effect is just communicating an impact force. We see no light in the back before the impact and then we see light at the moment of the impact.

Exactly! The fight was not near the sun but entirely on Earth.
It LOOKS like the sun in the background, but is, instead, a light effect to communicate impact force.

Salsa, have you yet read the Interview Greg Rucka gave concerning Sacrifice? It was given a month BEFORE that "I wanted Doomsday to suffer" magazine was released.

Retcons aside, level with me, if you've read that interview,
do YOU truly believe Rucka originally intended to show Clark still holding back?

Originally posted by biensalsa
2003 Scary Monsters

Superman faces MAGICAL monsters who basically do a short work of Diana. Superman fights and keeps fighting even though this are MAGICAL BEINGS.

Diana gets frozen on will powered Ice, Diana cannot escape, Superman makes the statement that He could free her, but he is afraid his power surge will damage Diana's body

Salsa,

If you have the time, I'd be interested in seeing some of the scenes you're talking about in this "Scary Monsters" arc. I've only seen the cover and maybe one or two images of Wonder Woman herself as some kind of purple monster. A review says she throws or drops a cliff on Batman trying to hit him?

Anyway, if you have the time, that would be appreciated.

Originally posted by biensalsa
Agree, is nice to have a civil debate and I did not noticed how much traffic has gone up. Interesting.

[From] the JLA/JSA Secret files

,

[T]he beginning and the end of virtue and vice the portrayal of Sentinel and Superman above even the members of their own teams backed by the Atoms statement of Jla/Jsa kind of gives the idea of those two being the top dogs of their teams, don't you think?

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/Compare/jla-jsa-002.jpg

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/Compare/jla-jsa-003.jpg

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/Compare/jla-jsa-008.jpg

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/Compare/jla-jsa-090.jpg

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/Compare/jla-jsa-091.jpg

Top dogs?

I agree.

Leaders of their respective teams, with all the responsibilities and majesty OF great leaders. Superman, Jonn Jonnz or whatever current chair notwithstanding, is practically ALWAYS regarded as the Leader of the Justice League, for instance. I imagine the same is true of Alan Scott given his treatment in the book.

But this doesn't really tell me anything about strength and power.

Captain America for instance, leads the Avengers, and they are usually shown obeying him unquestioningly in the most dire of situations. Thor himself defers to him as "My Captain" most of the time, and in Secret Wars explains to Wolverine that he does not follow anyone lightly but would do so under almost any circumstances with THIS man.
But does anyone think for a moment that Captain America is more powerful or even AS powerful as Thor. Does anyone think he is nearly as strong? Could hope to stand long against Thor in a fight?

But certainly Superman and Alan, like Steve, are held in the absolute highest regard by their teammates.

Originally posted by biensalsa

JLA 77 2003 Superman lifts a mini singularity that has lasted for millenia. Before He lifts it, He has to face Diana and Firestorm who want to destroy the Mnemon.

JLA 78 2003 Superman not Diana is the last line of defense vs Theorical mass

From roughly 1985 to 2004, I was mostly a "Marvel Comics" man.
I suppose I still regard many of the books I read then as the way comics should be done, especially that mid-80s period.

Actually, I'm seeing a lot of today's storylines and characters following the trends I saw then, so perhaps the creative staff of the Big Two are beginning to think the same thing.

Superman, for instance, seems to have taken a page from the way Spider-Man was done, young idealistic man struggling to support himself and struggling to survive against ever more powerful enemies with all the resource and thought at his disposal, hoping to make a difference in the world, hoping to keep people from being victimized from immoral others.

And ... Wonder Woman ...?
So many elements were borrowed from the 80s and 90s from her recent yearlong Odyssey run that ...

Well, let's just say this is a great time for a mid-80s comics to re-live some memories. Right now, for instance, I can't get the image of Diana trying to shake down a crooked pawnbroker anymore than I can Pete trying the same with a gold notebook ...

But I've gained a new respect for some of the DC line that I missed. None more so than for the writers of the JLA title, which included talent like Grant Morrison, Joe Kelly, and Mark Waid.
You go from reading about characters like Daredevil and Spider-man, you wonder after awhile, "How in the world could you design a challenge big enough to legitimately endanger a group of SEVEN Hulk and Thor level beings? Consistently? Through a period of several years?"

Well, JLA found a way. They could make even the most mundane things extraordinary. Your "Mnemon" for instance looks like no more than a paperweight, yet ...

Originally posted by biensalsa

JLA 77 2003 Superman lifts a mini singularity that has lasted for millenia. Before He lifts it, He has to face Diana and Firestorm who want to destroy the Mnemon.

JLA 78 2003 Superman not Diana is the last line of defense vs Theorical mass

At any rate, in answer to your question, Mnemon is light enough to sit on a table for a good portion of the issue, and that's exactly what Flash does with it, put it on the JLA desktop conference table:

Originally posted by biensalsa

JLA 77 2003 Superman lifts a mini singularity that has lasted for millenia. Before He lifts it, He has to face Diana and Firestorm who want to destroy the Mnemon.

Fuller address:

Mnemon is a paperweight for much of the issue.
When he becomes the singularity Superman closes his hand around it.
It is such a strain he needs the help of Green Lantern Stewart to hold out. Yet he does manage to keep it for a little while on it's own, apparently before it fully manages to release.

Key point: Could Diana do that?
Superman's hands are more invulnerable than Diana's I would think.
I doubt that she could, save through deus ex machina increase of her durability. One caveat though: "Deus ex machina" aka "god of the machine"? That process describes who Diana IS. If a writer actually DID have her do that, he would be justified now given her background of recent durability feats, but he would have been justified then by invoking Diana's very nature.

But, again, that goes to the question of POWER.

As I said before, I'm only looking at physical STRENGTH.

Your thought process, or at least that of most people who bring this up is, "Black holes are incredibly dense. So they are incredibly HEAVY. Can character x LIFT or support the equivalent WEIGHT of Mnemon in singularity release mode?"

I believe she can. Already helped pull the entirety of planet Earth an issue or two before that. Even after having been destroyed by a deadly ancient spell and reduced to literal bones, she does that, moments after resurrection, and more ready than Superman himself, who needs time to charge for the task.
See nothing to suggest the weight all by itself should present her with any problem.

Regarding Superman holding Diana for Max at the beginning of Sacrifice ...

If we're going to take into consideration motivations, even as you contend pain made Diana act in ways she might not normally, then we should consider things from BOTH sides.

You assert Superman holds Diana for Max.
That's true enough, but by this time Diana wants to find out what is going on. Everyone in the JLA wants to know what is happening to Superman and wants to get to the bottom of what is making him act so crazy. A LONG term solution. Stopping him from acting weird before didn't help. Diana knows she needs more information to get a permanent solution. Max is providing it.
Does it make sense to try to clock him before learning what is going on?

Regardless, it's also important to note what happened immediately prior. Was Superman stopped from finishing off Batman by sound reasoning?

Superman v Batman and Wonder Woman. Adventures of Superman #642. Scan 2.

Notice that here we have the reverse of the situation of that alternate Loeb story. Note too that Superman does not free himself by combatting Diana directly, nor does he seem able to.

Superman only succeeds in even getting away from Wonder Woman by managing to imperil Batman.

He doesn't stick around to fight afterwards, either.

Even more interesting to note is that he does not try to make a move, even though against all the rest of the Justice League, until DIANA is gone from the immediate area.

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Source: Adventures of Superman #642, Volume 1
Writer: Greg Rucka
Penciller: Karl Kerschl, Derec Donovan, Cam Smith, & Sean Parsons
Date: September 2005
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http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Adventures_of_Superman_Vol_1_642

At any rate, if we are to have an honest discussion, it can't be ONLY the shots that show Wonder Woman compromised that get shown in a forum.

As stated before, I've gained some respect for JLA writers.
It is in the pages of JLA that you find Wonder Woman performing near the levels she used to perform at. And yet, the magazine still suffers from some perspective bias.
The easiest way to show this bias, I think, is by using the cropping and perspective rotation used to favor DC's traditional cash cow in exactly ONE of the following few scans.

I will remind that I was asked to provide some strength feats for Wondy. This is one of them, commonly overlooked.
Potentially the best, visually, though obviously the earth-pull shown earlier involves more mass.
Later on, I will show that this does not, though some people might be shocked to discover, represent the high end of what she USED to do in her past, and yes, I am talking about pre-Crisis Wonder Woman, who also had some skirmishes with Superman back in the day, most of which should be given some treatment before this thread is through.

Scan 2. The LUNATIC battle against the White Martians, final plan enacted ...

JLA Terror Incognita. Image 3. Fire. At last.

JLA. Terror Incognita.

JLA Terror Incognita.

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Story: "Terror Incognita"
Source: JLA #58, Volume 1
Writer: Mark Waid
Penciller: Mike Miller
Date: November 2001
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http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/JLA_Vol_1_58