Superman Vs Wonderwoman

Started by bluewaterrider58 pages
Originally posted by -Pr-
What evidence?

She succeeds where he does not, she trumps people and other opponents that give him great trouble, people that themselves have just claims and evidence that they are greater than him.

On the other hand, Superman fails at feats that their shared feats together suggest he should be able to do alone.

Callisto is one recent example, a moon that Superman cannot stop even with the help of a dozen other Kryptonians, whereas in JLA 58, with the help of Wonder Woman and Green Lantern Rayner, moving Earth's moon can be done at speed, and then with enough precision to avert colliding with the planet itself after bringing it into Earth's own atmosphere.

That makes sense if Diana is actually stronger than he is, and stronger than the average Kryptonian. That is, in fact, exactly what one would predict.

On the other hand, even as I'm having this debate, I'm already being realistic. You and I both know there isn't really continuity enough to hold together even Superman's history.

You, for instance, assert that a story set in 2001 shows why Superman is the premier hero in the DCU. Not coincidentally, this is the showing that showcases post-Crisis Superman at the zenith of his mainstream power. Is he given this place later on?

I've got a lot of questions I'd be interested in having you answer, but you're not around a whole lot. To start with, I wonder what you conclude from Our Worlds at War that you would like me to take from the series. I listed what I thought were the essentials as relates to this thread, but you did not respond to them, or explain why you thought it should be something kept in mind.

If it's the idea that Superman can powerup and increase his strength, you should be aware that Wonder Woman has at least one or two means of powering up that are fairly well-established for her as well.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
She succeeds where he does not, she trumps people and other opponents that give him great trouble, people that themselves have just claims and evidence that they are greater than him.

On the other hand, Superman fails at feats that their shared feats together suggest he should be able to do alone.

Callisto is one recent example, a moon that Superman cannot stop even with the help of a dozen other Kryptonians, whereas in JLA 58, with the help of Wonder Woman and Green Lantern Rayner, moving Earth's moon can be done at speed, and then with enough precision to avert colliding with the planet itself after bringing it into Earth's own atmosphere.

That makes sense if Diana is actually stronger than he is, and stronger than the average Kryptonian. That is, in fact, exactly what one would predict.

On the other hand, even as I'm having this debate, I'm already being realistic. You and I both know there isn't really continuity enough to hold together even Superman's history.

You, for instance, assert that a story set in 2001 shows why Superman is the premier hero in the DCU. Not coincidentally, this is the showing that showcases post-Crisis Superman at the zenith of his mainstream power. Is he given this place later on?

I've got a lot of questions I'd be interested in having you answer, but you're not around a whole lot. To start with, I wonder what you conclude from Our Worlds at War that you would like me to take from the series. I listed what I thought were the essentials as relates to this thread, but you did not respond to them, or explain why you thought it should be something kept in mind.

If it's the idea that Superman can powerup and increase his strength, you should be aware that Wonder Woman has at least one or two means of powering up that are fairly well-established for her as well.


😂
Callisto was wrapped in a relativistic bubble which had to be broken first. Superman, wonder woman and j'onn failed to hold earth in orbit and superman moved entire earth with hal when starbreaker was pushing it into sun. They even said while diana present that only superman and hal were strong enough.

First together with GL Kyle, and then apparently solo, Superman braces the moon, preventing it from spiralling out of orbit. JLA 80-Page Giant #1
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/80PageGiant01a.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/80PageGiant01b.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/80PageGiant01c.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/80PageGiant01e.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Crazy%20Feats/JLAv4029b.jpg

http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Crazy%20Feats/JLAv4029c.jpg

http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Crazy%20Feats/JLAv4029d.jpg

http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Crazy%20Feats/JLAv4029e.jpg

http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Crazy%20Feats/JLAv4029f.jpg

Originally posted by biensalsa
About the "paper weight", come on! paper weights do not collapse reality into themselves.

All well and good, but, what I am supposed to take from that?

If it's that Superman's hands are tougher than Diana's, fair enough, but I said that much already.

If it's that you believe that thing was incredibly heavy, fair enough, but the panel says he got it before it fully released.

If you believe that thing STILL fully released, and became incredibly heavy, fair enough, but they are on the moon, so this miniature black hole, which may or may not have been fully released, is only 1/6th the weight of what it would be on Earth.

Incidentally, combatting the force of singularity seems something Wonder Woman was more equipped than Superman was to do on at least one occasion:

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Source: Green Lantern. Circle of Fire.
Writer: Brian K. Vaughan
Penciller: Norm Breyfogle
Date: October 2000
---------------------------------------------------------------------
http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Green_Lantern:_Circle_of_Fire_Vol_1_1

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
All well and good, but, what I am supposed to take from that?

If it's that Superman's hands are tougher than Diana's, fair enough, but I said that much already.

If it's that you believe that thing was incredibly heavy, fair enough, but the panel says he got it before it fully released.

If you believe that thing STILL fully released, and became incredibly heavy, fair enough, but they are on the moon, so this miniature black hole, which may or may not have been fully released, is only 1/6th the weight of what it would be on Earth.

Incidentally, combatting the force of singularity seems something Wonder Woman was more equipped than Superman was to do on at least one occasion:

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Source: Green Lantern. Circle of Fire.
Writer: Brian K. Vaughan
Penciller: Norm Breyfogle
Date: October 2000
---------------------------------------------------------------------
http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Green_Lantern:_Circle_of_Fire_Vol_1_1


Obilivion weakened superman by creating a red sun. An year one superman has pulled himself out of black hole. At this point you are just trolling.

Originally posted by biensalsa

2003 Scary Monsters

Diana gets frozen on will powered Ice, Diana cannot escape, Superman makes the statement that He could free her, but he is afraid his power surge will damage Diana's body

Diana is vulnerable to heat beyond a certain temperature.
Quite true. Major point of Sacrifice, incidentally.

But also not reflective of her physical strength.

Illustrates how inconsistent comics are though -- the temperature in space is close to zero, too. Yet Diana seldom has problems performing there.

Originally posted by biensalsa

You were still thinking that a small ring chunk of kryptonite will stop superman on his tracks that has changed a lot.

I do not know if You are aware but Superman has 2 OFFICIAL power ups since the byrne era. This are OFFICIAL

I suspect he would have to have power-ups over the course of 25 years, but, what makes a power-up "official" as opposed to "unofficial" by your system? How were people notified of any changes?

As for kryptonite, I have little reason to believe even now a small ring chunk of it won't stop Superman. Then again, I don't what time period you're thinking of. One of the more recent ones I know of, for instance, was Fall of 2007 ...

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Source: Teen Titans #50, Volume 3
Writers: Sean McKeever, Geoff Johns, Marv Wolfman, & Todd Dezago
Pencillers: Randy Green, Mike McKone, George Perez, & Todd Nauck
Date: October 2007
---------------------------------------------------------------------
http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Teen_Titans_Vol_3_50

Yes, but in his own books Superman has shown an increasing resistance to Kryptonite. One showing in a badly written Teen Titans book doesn't negate the large number of contradictory sources, ones that even outweigh instances like the ones you posted.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I suspect he would have to have power-ups over the course of 25 years, but, what makes a power-up "official" as opposed to "unofficial" by your system? How were people notified of any changes?

As for kryptonite, I have little reason to believe even now a small ring chunk of it won't stop Superman. Then again, I don't what time period you're thinking of. One of the more recent ones I know of, for instance, was Fall of 2007 ...

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Source: Teen Titans #50, Volume 3
Writers: Sean McKeever, Geoff Johns, Marv Wolfman, & Todd Dezago
Pencillers: Randy Green, Mike McKone, George Perez, & Todd Nauck
Date: October 2007
---------------------------------------------------------------------
http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Teen_Titans_Vol_3_50


In the same comic cassie oneshotted diana.

Originally posted by -Pr-
in his own books Superman has shown an increasing resistance to Kryptonite.

Applying reasoning like that would mean the ring had little if any effect on him in Sacrifice, then.

Which would actually be even more of a testament to Wonder Woman's durability.

Just out of curiousity, P.R., how recent or old are the counter-examples you're thinking of?

This is stronger than superman superwoman

😂

The fight between wonder woman and superwoman

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/DC/JLA029-16.jpg
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/DC/JLA029-17.jpg
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/DC/JLA029-18.jpg

Black canary beats her ass more easily than wonder woman

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/DC/JLA030-800-09.jpg
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/DC/JLA030-800-10.jpg

Pathetic.

Re: Re: Superman Vs Wonderwoman

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Post-Crisis On Infinite Earths

-- "Odyssey", Wonder Woman #611, Volume 4

-- "Sacrifice", Wonder Woman #219, Volume 2, Greg Rucka
Wonder Woman win, Superman loss

-- "For Tomorrow", Superman #211, Volume 2, Brian Azzarello
Draw; broken off by Superman asking Diana to save people from his fortress being destroyed, and Diana complying

-- Superman Batman #15, Volume 1, Jeph Loeb

Pre-Crisis On Infinite Earths

-- "Family Crisis, Part 2: Battlegrounds", Justice League of America #232, Volume 1 written by Kurt Busiek
Wonder Woman win, Superman loss.
Note that Superman was brainwashed.

-- "Crisis on Earth Prime", Justice League of America #207, Volume 1
Diana, but not Wonder Woman, Diana of the Amazons of Earth-3.
Judging from Justice League of America #29 and #30, Volume 1, the exact physical match of Wonder Woman, but on the side of the CSA.

"Wonder Woman" win, Superman loss.
Precursor mirror of Rucka's "Sacrifice"

-- "Superman versus Wonder Woman" (1978?)
Draw, broken off to deal with main villain of story.
Noteworthy: Set on Earth-2 and thus involving, theoretically, the "original" Superman and Wonder Woman

Forgot to add to this list:

Pre-Crisis. Justice League of America #143, Volume 1.
Wonder Woman win, Superman loss.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Forgot to add to this list:

Pre-Crisis. Justice League of America #143, Volume 1.
Wonder Woman win, Superman loss.


He was willingly tied in her lasso because he didn't want to fight her. Phail again.

A side by side comparison of Justice League v1 #207 and Wonder Woman v2 #219.

I have decided to let you finish your case, in order to get a straight a to b communication, instead of jumping form case b to case e and then back to a and back to b.

But I thought You were specifically talking about 2003 to 2011 and now You are bringing Pre Crisis instances.

So that way We can move faster with this topic

Originally posted by biensalsa
I have decided to let you finish your case, in order to get a straight a to b communication, instead of jumping form case b to case e and then back to a and back to b.

But I thought You were specifically talking about 2003 to 2011 and now You are bringing Pre Crisis instances.

So that way We can move faster with this topic

I intend to be fairly comprehensive; this topic is GOING to take a long time regardless. I intend to cover the original poster's questions and a few others. You will actually get priority. I'm generally willing to answer virtually any question you have, even if it was something asked by other people before now. Understand again that I am limited by time.

Nevertheless, to start, I'll re-visit this self-same post of yours, restate my criteria a post or two afterwards, and proceed from there ...

Originally posted by biensalsa
I have decided to let you finish your case, in order to get a straight a to b communication, instead of jumping form case b to case e and then back to a and back to b.

You see that taking time to answer every random question that comes up intereferes with that, I hope? Even more so when there is a HOST of people asking random questions. Won't get too far trying to answer everything they come up with.
Even less so when at least one or more just invent conflicts to try to discredit you.

For instance, in that episode shown earlier, the one where Diana lassos J'onnz, even as Superman needs saving by Kyle, the objection comes up "He was weakend by red sun!"
A device intended entirely to waste my time.

Yeah, Superman was weakened by red sun created by the villain all right -- AFTER the villain created that black hole sucking Superman and J'onnz in.

Anyone examining the actual story would see that.

And nearly every objection by that same author has been like that.

Superwoman knocked out by some Captain America level threat, or perhaps even some street-leveler?
The only claim I've agreed to is that Diana is physically stronger than Clark. I said so early on, I made the distinction, I also explained the criterion I was basing that judgement on, one I'll re-state for you in a bit, and begin demonstrating what I mean.
Strength is absolutely NOT the same as invulnerability.
Namor knocked out Hulk in one of their first battles by drowning him, for instance. Namor can breathe underwater, Hulk can't. Certainly Namor is strong, and, fully immersed in water, he's at the zenith of his power.
Does that mean he's physically stronger than Hulk though?
Is the fact that he knocks out Hulk proof of that?
Fact is, Amazons are amazingly strong but have variable durability.
In Teen Titans #50 Volume ONE, for instance, Donna Troy gets in front of and stops a train. Fully loaded, several boxcars. Stronger than a locomotive? She's put down a few pages later by an ordinary goon hitting her in the back of the head. With an old lady's purse.
The main villain of the story manages to give her the "shakes" before that, but the attack isn't by itself a harmful one. Blow, back of the head. Purse.
Would anyone ever conclude Donna had the strength to stop a fully loaded multi-car passenger train if they looked only at that scene?
But the fact of the knockout ultimately has no bearing on whether she can do that. She can. She did. DESPITE the fact a man with a purse can knock her out.

Note again, though, how even taking the time to address those few points adds to the length of a message like this one?

Originally posted by biensalsa
I thought You were specifically talking about 2003 to 2011 and now You are bringing Pre Crisis instances.

Refer back to the post that opens this thread.
There's no distinction made between "pre-crisis" Diana or "post-crisis" Diana or Superman. And, indeed, when new comic fans ask questions like this, admitting they don't even know where to search for such stories, they don't KNOW that there's a "pre-crisis" or "post-crisis" forum posters like to make distinctions between.

I already explained why I was talking 2003 through 2011 primarily, though. That's the years most of my collection spans. I don't, in general, HAVE a significant amount of material for 1986 through 2002.
To be honest, though I've been observer and participant in a lot of comic forums, you nearly amazed me just with your first 5 scans. Except for the one of Luthor, which I think I've seen in some trade of Loeb's early Superman/Batman run, I didn't recognize ANYTHING you posted. I've not encountered a case where a poster was able to show me a random collection that had me thinking THAT in a long time.
Then again, most of the discussions on comic forums are about relatively recent events, so I guess I should be that surprised.

As for pre-Crisis, though?
Well, you yourself mentioned pre-Crisis work.
Again, it's ALSO an issue of relevancy and access.
Relevancy you should begin to see from pictures like my JLA207/WW219 compilation. It was obviously an influence on what writers present to us today.

As for access?
Pre-Crisis material is easier to come across. It's collected in trades and DC Archive editions. A lot of it you'll find in libraries and even on microfiche film. Stories like to carry the hardback collection of them because they earn a lot of money per book.
It is actually the stuff from 10-30 years back that is hardest to find, not the stuff from 30-70 years back.
At least in my case. Judging from the quick return time you have for posting images, range, depth, etcetera, you probably have resources the average fan can only dream of.

Restatement of criterion:

Originally posted by bluewaterrider

Don't know what standard you're using for your Superman/Wonder Woman comparison ...

Mine is more or less this, in regards to physical strength: Unifying just about EVERY thing I know about either character, their background, how their powers work, their character limitations, plot limitations, overall performance in relatively objective tests such as lifting known weights, competitions against each other and other mutual foes and powerful beings, origins, and basic concepts, Wonder Woman 2003-2011 would win an armwrestling match against Superman, and nearly any other contest that involved pure physical strength.

Note that one primary reason for the dates are that I did not start forming a significant DC reading catalogue until around 2004.

Most of my experience of either Superman or Wonder Woman is from those dates or thereabouts. Wonder Woman pre-2003 or so may very well be a far less impressive being than the one we've had the past decade.

.