Superman Vs Wonderwoman

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
In terms of mental clarity, I do not significantly dispute you.

Short of Our Worlds at War, however, please show me a time, post-Crisis, where Superman was ever physically stronger than the lunatic Diana fights in Wonder Woman 219 -- or ever had reason to be.

If I still have them on my hard drive, I'll post some images of the Darkseid fight you're talking about. It's a VERY relevant parallel to Sacrifice, justs as Man of Tomorrow 13 is.

If you want to go that route, though, in the original story arc by Loeb, Supergirl is enough of a threat that Superman HIMSELF uses Kryptonite against her. In the movie those scenes are absent.

Quite true, but they've also been very influential, and they generally enjoy far wider viewership. I imagine that will become ever more the case, given that DC was acquired by Warner Bros a few years ago.
Already the influences of other media can be seen in the comics that are Warner Bros traditional forte. For example villains from the cartoons, like Harley Quinn and Livewire have been co-opted, Harley becoming such a staple that she had her own comic for awhile. Relatively recent artists depictions have Superman alternately looking like Christoper Reeves and Tom Welling. In the DCNu, the characters all seem to have been de-aged from late 30s/early 40s to perhaps mid-20s, reflecting the ages of the casts chosen to play Superman and other JLA characters appearing in the recent Superman movies and Smallville.

P.R., the movies don't NEED to be an accurate representation of the comics when they start determining what we see in the comics.
For more and more they become one.
Notice, however, that much of this, perhaps most of this, has taken place in the last 10 years -- just AFTER the period of your "Our Worlds at War" series.

I don't see where the reasoning for "it's his niche" is coming from.
Unlike, say, Marvel Comics Hulk, there is nothing I can see in Superman's actual story that says "strongest there is". Saves the day, nick of time, one to count on, doing what can't be done by others for the sake of others? Certainly. But that's also what other heroes about.
Note too, that many of the heroes surpass him in skills and power. Batman is a better tactician, shrewder, more resourceful, and, though they emphasize it less these days, generally, a better detective.
Flash is FASTER than Superman, not merely equal to him in Speed.
More and more you see Jonn Jonnz making claim to being Supes' equal in power, EDITOR Matt Idleson himself says Supergirl is now stronger; Captain Marvel has been credited with knockdown, knockout/rumbling advantage in toe-to-toe exchanges for as long as I can remember.
Yet what feats has someone like Captain Marvel to offer SAVE fight performance against Blue?
For the period I'm talking about, what you're saying doesn't seem to have much of a true basis. Not in terms of pure physical strength. Not on full examination. And certainly not if we're taking into account the LOW end of Superman showings, which most discussions in forums of this sort understandably do not.

Which movie depicted diana as stronger than superman? In the same movie Stompa was crushing diana's head under her boots untill barda saved her.

Yeah, he is "strongest one there is" in DC. Officialy he is the most powerful hero on the planet. Funnily enough diana was also in the scene when Alan scott said that.

Wonder Woman's core concept.

" Not even girls want to be girls so long as our feminine archetype lacks force, strength, and power. Not wanting to be girls, they don't want to be tender, submissive, peace-loving as good women are. Women's strong qualities have become despised because of their weakness. The obvious remedy is to create a feminine character with all the strength of Superman plus all the allure of a good and beautiful woman."

-- William Moulton Marston, creator of Wonder Woman, 1943, The American Scholar

Originally posted by biensalsa
Appealing to the author[']s intention will not be a good argument since [these] two characters were created by different people.

As intention may seem to make her with the strength of "superman" is not the same as to exactly as strong as him.

Insofar as arguments depend on verifiable, permanent, unchanging facts for support, I'm not sure there's such a thing as a "good argument" TO be made for most anything concerning comicbooks.

But, even assuming that there is such a thing, I still honestly don't understand what you are saying here.

Your post echoes something I read by Mark Waid, which I may or may not have alluded to before, where he outlined the reason Marvel Comics has (or at least USED to have) amazingly tight continuity in comparison to DC comics. It was because the Marvel Universe, at least at the time of this interview, was largely the creative vision of one man, and that man being, of course, Stan Lee, who was creator, co-creator, or major contributor of Fantastic Four, Hulk, Thor, The Avengers, Spider-man, and X-men; Marvel Comics most popular properties.

By contrast, DC comics was a collection of characters thrown together by business mergers. Its characters were created to exist in separate universes, by separate creators. There was no continuity to speak of, except where editors forced these characters to interact with for the occasional cameo or crossover, and no reason to expect there should be; it would be like throwing Bugs Bunny and Daffy Duck into a story with the Punisher.

Don't know what standard you're using for your Superman/Wonder Woman comparison ...

Mine is more or less this, in regards to physical strength: Unifying just about EVERY thing I know about either character, their background, how their powers work, their character limitations, plot limitations, overall performance in relatively objective tests such as lifting known weights, competitions against each other and other mutual foes and powerful beings, origins, and basic concepts, Wonder Woman 2003-2011 would win an armwrestling match against Superman, and nearly any other contest that involved pure physical strength.

Originally posted by biensalsa
Appealing to the author[']s intention will not be a good argument since [these] two characters were created by different people.

As intention may seem to make her with the strength of "superman" is not the same as to exactly as strong as him.

Mark Waid aside, separate universes aside, its worth noting that William Moulton Marston, Wonder Woman's creator, and, indeed, Wonder Woman herself, were both well aware of the character called "Superman" appearing in Action Comics.
Marston wasn't referring to some vague "Nietchze"-ian figure when he made the statement you read a post ago ...

Originally posted by biensalsa
Appealing to the author[']s intention will not be a good argument since [these] two characters were created by different people.

As intention may seem to make her with the strength of "superman" is not the same as to exactly as strong as him.

On the contrary, as early as the 4th book in her title, you can see proof that Moulton AND Diana knew of the famous Man in Blue ...

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source for images in prior 2 posts: Wonder Woman #4, Volume 1
Story Title: "The Third Test of Aphrodite"
Writer: William Moulton Marston
Penciller: Harry G. Peter
Date: April/May 1943
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.amazonarchives.com/wnwom4.htm

" ... [N]ext they help reform rubber magnate Ivar Torson and his syndicate, who have been conspiring to conceal their secret rubber extraction solution from the U.S. government despite the fact that it is desperately needed to prosecute the war effort..."

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Don't know what standard you're using for your Superman/Wonder Woman comparison ...

Mine is more or less this, in regards to physical strength: Unifying just about EVERY thing I know about either character, their background, how their powers work, their character limitations, plot limitations, overall performance in relatively objective tests such as lifting known weights, competitions against each other and other mutual foes and powerful beings, origins, and basic concepts, Wonder Woman 2003-2011 would win an armwrestling match against Superman, and nearly any other contest that involved pure physical strength.

Mark Waid aside, separate universes aside, its worth noting that William Moulton Marston, Wonder Woman's creator, and, indeed, Wonder Woman herself, were both well aware of the character called "Superman" appearing in Action Comics.
Marston wasn't referring to some vague "Nietchze"-ian figure when he made the statement you read a post ago ...

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
On the contrary, as early as the 4th book in her title, you can see proof that Moulton AND Diana knew of the famous Man in Blue ...

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source for images in prior 2 posts: Wonder Woman #4, Volume 1
Story Title: "The Third Test of Aphrodite"
Writer: William Moulton Marston
Penciller: Harry G. Peter
Date: April/May 1943
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.amazonarchives.com/wnwom4.htm

" ... [N]ext they help reform rubber magnate Ivar Torson and his syndicate, who have been conspiring to conceal their secret rubber extraction solution from the U.S. government despite the fact that it is desperately needed to prosecute the war effort..."

Even with this first submission, you can see some of the elements that made Wonder Woman a little ... unusual for its time. Or perhaps any time. It's useful to keep in mind that the primary audience of the comicbooks of yesterday was 21 and under.
Indeed, I WOULD say "12 and under" save for the fact that comicbooks were apparently popular with GIs, that is, general infantrymen, i.e. World War II soldiers on the frontlines.

So most Wonder Woman readers would probably see no subtext where we modern readers see (or think we see?) such motifs.

I note this for several reasons.

1) Marston's work reflects a lot of his private and professional philosophies. For instance, Marston was a noted psychologist. You can see an amazing reflection of the sort of behavioral labs that often WERE conducted in his day in the image attachment for this submission.

(Tangent compulsion to post: I worked for a man who ran this type of lab, before my time, in the 1970s. The idea is that we discriminate chiefly based on outward appearance and external cues of power and stature, i.e. the policeman's uniform and revolver, the 40 story high rise of Wall Street Tycoons, a senior businessman's gorgeous secretaries, etcetera, and that if you remove these from the equation, you get man in a far more common, objective and relate-able state.)

2) There are elements beyond the traditional in early Wonder Woman comics that, unfortunately, likely serve to limit her mainstream appeal

3) Corroborates that concept quote was, indeed, a guidline for his work on the title.

Originally posted by biensalsa
Appealing to the author[']s intention will not be a good argument since [these] two characters were created by different people.

As intention may seem to make her with the strength of "superman" is not the same as to exactly as strong as him.

Some things are unexplainable without being directly connected to one another. The man in the Superman suit in that Wonder Woman story, for instance, cannot be explained except by Marston indeed knowing about Superman of Action Comics and consciously modelling the costume of that man in the "subconscious" scene off of him.

Others are more ambiguous. Someone earlier this year introduced me to a term called "synchronicity", a concept which might be on display here in another uncanny parallel with that previous submission.

Whether Marston was consciously spoofing Bob Kane here or whether this was a common mock threat of the times I do not know ...

(The source of the first half of this composite image is Batman #1, Volume 1.)

Originally posted by biensalsa
Appealing to the author[']s intention will not be a good argument since [these] two characters were created by different people.

As intention may seem to make her with the strength of "superman" is not the same as to exactly as strong as him.

"All the strength of Superman PLUS the allure of a beautiful woman".

P.R. alluded to the following in so many words, I suppose ...

Originally posted by biensalsa
Appealing to the author[']s intention will not be a good argument since [these] two characters were created by different people.

As intention may seem to make her with the strength of "superman" is not the same as to exactly as strong as him.

Of necessity, this section will probably require the most revisiting to properly address. Can't do it with only one scan, after all.

Worthwhile to point out, as I began posting strength feats, Wonder Woman was spoken of by the characters of many of her stories the same way people spoke of Superman in his -- young and old:

" Not even girls want to be girls so long as our feminine archetype lacks force, strength, and power. Not wanting to be girls, they don't want to be tender, submissive, peace-loving as good women are. Women's strong qualities have become despised because of their weakness. The obvious remedy is to create a feminine character with ALL the strength of Superman plus all the allure of a good and beautiful woman."

-- William Moulton Marston, creator of Wonder Woman, 1943, The American Scholar

Originally posted by biensalsa
Appealing to the author[']s intention will not be a good argument since [these] two characters were created by different people.

As intention may seem to make her with the strength of "superman" is not the same as to exactly as strong as him.

" Not even girls want to be girls so long as our feminine archetype lacks force, strength, and power. Not wanting to be girls, they don't want to be tender, submissive, peace-loving as good women are. Women's strong qualities have become despised because of their weakness. The obvious remedy is to create a feminine character with ALL the strength of Superman plus all the allure of a good and beautiful woman."

-- William Moulton Marston, creator of Wonder Woman, 1943, The American Scholar

Originally posted by biensalsa
Appealing to the author[']s intention will not be a good argument since [these] two characters were created by different people.

As intention may seem to make her with the strength of "superman" is not the same as to exactly as strong as him.

Compare the previous entry to Action Comics #1, where Superman lifts a car of hoodlums.

For this one, though ...

Hmm.

I seem to have encountered an entirely new type of error with these KMC boards. My last entry gives hypertext link instead of a picture? Even though I'm currently constructing messages as a registered user and not just viewing things as a browsing guest? And the hypertext link does NOT open to a picture as hypertext links for browsing guests do but returns a "file not found" error?

Suppose I can only try again and see what happens THIS time ...

Same thing happened.

Perhaps that particular file is corrupted and I did not know it...

Alright, let's try a different image and see if THAT registers properly ...

Still don't know what caused that image loss in the entry before last; hopefully it won't affect any more uploads.

Wonder Woman, like Superman, was a World War II hero.
Actually, given that HE debuted just before World War II, it would probably be correct to say that was even more true for her, both in-story and out.

Superman started off at the level of a modern so-called DC "mid-tier" and proceeded to greater feats as writers engaged in one-upmanship with each other.

Striking to see just how much they borrowed from one another.
For instance, the car feat mentioned in Action #1. Wonder Woman catches one from a bridge instead of picking one up from level ground.
Later on ran around with a bus. Graduated from that to tanks and such, but, again, she started off in the era of World War II, so this were inevitable in any case.

Here's another instance of topping Action #1 that's especially striking though, Image 1 of 6...

Man, I hate KMC's scanning system.
Think I may break down and follow your suggestion very soon, Salsa.

In the meantime, though ... again ...

Wonder Woman, Safecracker. The case of Thomas Tighe. Image 2 of 6.

Wonder Woman, Safecracker. The case of Thomas Tighe. Image 3 of 6.

Wonder Woman, Safecracker. The case of Thomas Tighe. Image 4 of 6.

Wonder Woman, Safecracker. The case of Thomas Tighe. Image 5 of 6.