Wonder Woman, Safecracker. The case of Thomas Tighe. Image 6 of 6.
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Source: Wonder Woman #38, Volume 1
Writer: William Moulton Marston?/Robert Kanigher
Penciller: Harry G. Peter
Date: November 1949
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Originally posted by bluewaterriderDon't know what standard you're using for your Superman/Wonder Woman comparison ...
Mine is more or less this, in regards to physical strength: Unifying just about EVERY thing I know about either character, their background, how their powers work, their character limitations, plot limitations, overall performance in relatively objective tests such as lifting known weights, competitions against each other and other mutual foes and powerful beings, origins, and basic concepts, Wonder Woman 2003-2011 would win an armwrestling match against Superman, and nearly any other contest that involved pure physical strength.
Very sorry I don't have access to a comic book historian. It would be interesting to see who was actually first, Wonder Woman or Clark, in depicting the following in a magainze ...
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Source: Sensation Comics #26, Volume 1
Writer: William Moulton Marston
Penciller: Harry G. Peter
Date: February 1944
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http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Sensation_Comics_Vol_1_26
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
In terms of mental clarity, I do not significantly dispute you.Short of Our Worlds at War, however, please show me a time, post-Crisis, where Superman was ever physically stronger than the lunatic Diana fights in Wonder Woman 219 -- or ever had reason to be.
Stronger? When he fought Brainiac? When he fought other Kryptonians? Darkseid? Doomsday? All times when he could let his strength run free without fear of it hurting anyone, and again because he's mentally together, said strength has more direction, and is used more efficiently.
If I still have them on my hard drive, I'll post some images of the Darkseid fight you're talking about. It's a VERY relevant parallel to Sacrifice, justs as Man of Tomorrow 13 is.If you want to go that route, though, in the original story arc by Loeb, Supergirl is enough of a threat that Superman HIMSELF uses Kryptonite against her. In the movie those scenes are absent.
He uses Kryptonite to put her down because he doesn't want to fight her period. Even earlier in said battle, he point-blank refuses to fight back. Supergirl is impressive, no doubt, but she's a notch below Kal, and has always been portrayed as such, even in Loeb's arc that had her taking on all comers.
Quite true, but they've also been very influential, and they generally enjoy far wider viewership. I imagine that will become ever more the case, given that DC was acquired by Warner Bros a few years ago.
Already the influences of other media can be seen in the comics that are Warner Bros traditional forte. For example villains from the cartoons, like Harley Quinn and Livewire have been co-opted, Harley becoming such a staple that she had her own comic for awhile. Relatively recent artists depictions have Superman alternately looking like Christoper Reeves and Tom Welling. In the DCNu, the characters all seem to have been de-aged from late 30s/early 40s to perhaps mid-20s, reflecting the ages of the casts chosen to play Superman and other JLA characters appearing in the recent Superman movies and Smallville.
That's not the same thing, though.
P.R., the movies don't NEED to be an accurate representation of the comics when they start determining what we see in the comics.
For more and more they become one.
The animated movies don't influence the comics much if at all. Live action yes, but even then it's not exactly widespread.
Notice, however, that much of this, perhaps most of this, has taken place in the last 10 years -- just AFTER the period of your "Our Worlds at War" series.
what relevance does that have?
I don't see where the reasoning for "it's his niche" is coming from.
Unlike, say, Marvel Comics Hulk, there is nothing I can see in Superman's actual story that says "strongest there is". Saves the day, nick of time, one to count on, doing what can't be done by others for the sake of others? Certainly. But that's also what other heroes about.
Note too, that many of the heroes surpass him in skills and power. Batman is a better tactician, shrewder, more resourceful, and, though they emphasize it less these days, generally, a better detective.
Flash is FASTER than Superman, not merely equal to him in Speed.
More and more you see Jonn Jonnz making claim to being Supes' equal in power, EDITOR Matt Idleson himself says Supergirl is now stronger; Captain Marvel has been credited with knockdown, knockout/rumbling advantage in toe-to-toe exchanges for as long as I can remember.
Yet what feats has someone like Captain Marvel to offer SAVE fight performance against Blue?
The fact that almost all the League defers to him when it comes to physical matters? I said they all had their niche. Batman is the detective. Flash is the fast one. J'onn is the telepath, and though they like to say he's Superman's equal at times, it's never really been proven, has it. Captain Marvel gets the nod at times because he's supposed to be Superman's equal, just like Doomsday. It's editorial edict, something that doesn't really exist for Wonder Woman. And even when Superman said that cap had an advantage, he still threw the fight to let cap win.
Matt Idelsen saying that doesn't really mean much when the comics blatantly contradict it.
For the period I'm talking about, what you're saying doesn't seem to have much of a true basis. Not in terms of pure physical strength. Not on full examination. And certainly not if we're taking into account the LOW end of Superman showings, which most discussions in forums of this sort understandably do not.
the problem with the period you're talking about means that you're discounting a lot of things that are just as canon as what happened during said period. You discounting it (which is understandable when you haven't read it) doesn't mean that it doesn't exist/count.
If we take on the low end of Diana's too, things would still look uneven.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=525118&pagenumber=6Very sorry I don't have access to a comic book historian. It would be interesting to see who was actually first, Wonder Woman or Clark, in depicting the following in a magainze ...
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Source: Sensation Comics #26, Volume 1
Writer: William Moulton Marston
Penciller: Harry G. Peter
Date: February 1944
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http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Sensation_Comics_Vol_1_26
Action Comics #62
July 1943
"Superman's mighty shoulders bear the weight of thousands of tons of rock AND the terrific pressure of the ocean above it"
That is >>>>>> than stopping a train
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Wonder Woman, Safecracker. The case of Thomas Tighe. Image 6 of 6.------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source: Wonder Woman #38, Volume 1
Writer: William Moulton Marston?/Robert Kanigher
Penciller: Harry G. Peter
Date: November 1949
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I read all your post before this one and I have no idea why are you posting all this, besides known facts about WW author's and how society on that era saw women.
So, OK, he had this fantasy of women dressed in shorts with braces and rope that gets depowered when bracers come together as in simulating some bsdm because of the bracers and the rope and loosing powers when the bracers are together.
Other than him being a questionable feminist because of those aspects I don't see why posting that.
As society being not open for women does not reflects she being Superman's equal in strength.
or are you trying to imply because of society she has not being treated fairly compared to superman?
Because if that is the case, I don't see where is the fact or evidence that she is stronger other than Superman but I do see trying to use a conspiracy theory to justify the lack of evidence.
and most evidence points at Superman being stronger.
Don't know what to make of this last post of yours, Salsa.
I outlined just about everything I was going to discuss and how and why and have been reiterating it nearly every page.
It was you yourself who asked to see some Wonder Woman feats, and you asked that several times, not merely once. But now that I start supplying them, you ask why I'm showing Wonder Woman feats.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Don't know what to make of this last post of yours, Salsa.I outlined just about everything I was going to discuss and how and why and have been reiterating it nearly every page.
It was you yourself who asked to see some Wonder Woman feats, and you asked that several times, not merely once. But now that I start supplying them, you ask why I'm showing Wonder Woman feats.
Maybe is because I'm not used to your style of posting. I see the scans, but most of them seem rather mundane to be called feats at least for what I consider feats.
I mean, yes she got out of a rope, but come on those are very mundane feats for Super heroes, She open a safe still very mundane, stopping a train, that is something worth for that era and I will consider that a nice feat.
But is not what I consider feats in any case. I know she is strong, I already pointed this out, but He is depicted as Stronger often and He is known to be stronger on the popular consensus.
Originally posted by biensalsa
I'm not used to your style of posting. I see the scans, but most of them seem rather mundane to be called feats at least for what I consider feats.
Problem #1. I'm taking this chronologically to answer your page 12 assertion that, not only do you think Superman is physically stronger than Wonder Woman, but that this has ALWAYS been the case.
(You use the phrasing "since forever", which, in American English, is not significantly different from saying exactly that.)
I'm covering this chronologically to answer more than that, of course, but I've already explained as much several times in this thread.
Problem #2. You haven't defined what you consider a feat.
Problem #3. You haven't defined, not even in rough terms, unless I've been extraordinarily and unintentionally oblivious to your explanations, what you mean by "strong".
#3, especially, becomes significant when you THEN follow up physical strength showings from me by balking and saying "X was a greater feat than your feat Y by Z order of magnitude".
For example, I explain I'm taking my interpretation off of what is most commonly seen and KNOWN for early Superman.
I use the specific examples of Superman lifting that car in Action Comics #1, ripping down the steel door to the governor's room
(to wake the governor and get him to grant an emergency pardon to a wrongly accused man and save his life),
and his popular "more powerful than a locomotive".
The car and train allusions are known the world over.
The WORLD over; not just among Man of Steel aficionados .
What comic fan who wanders into this thread has to read a book to discover Superman can pick up and run with a car or stop a train?
It's been covered by book, radio, magazine, and film throughout the years, both animated and live action, in fact all these media simultaneously, and that since about the 1940s.
Not so for Wonder Woman. The average fan doesn't know of her from her days of origin. He knows of her from the 1970s Lynda Carter show or the popular "Superfriends" cartoon at best, if he knows her at all.
The comparatively small fraction of comic-reading forum-visiting fans know a little more, but most of these, too, are relatively uninformed.
I am honestly wondering, for instance, where you yourself think she is strength-wise, and NOT in relation to Superman or anyone else, but simply in terms of what she can do on the reasonably objective scale of lifting or controlling the movement of very heavy objects.
Simultaneous WITH that, I genuinely desire to know WHEN you think she was able to perform the biggest lifts or movements on your list.
For your objection, "Superman performed a feat far greater than stopping a train in this showing right here" makes the most sense to me if you're thinking:
"Wonder Woman's greatest feat was stopping a train. She has no feats equal to the one I'm showing here."
But I'm not showing Wonder Woman stopping a train to say
"This is her best strength feat."
It's not.
It's not even close.
And I don't really think you're aware of that.
But when you're comparing Wondy to a guy who is known the world over specifically for BEING "more powerful than a locomotive", and she is not, it only makes sense to show this woman stopping a locomotive.
Because most people didn't KNOW she could do that.
Let alone that she was ACCUSTOMED to doing that sort of that thing in her books.
It's a natural starting point.
Originally posted by biensalsa
I'm not used to your style of posting.
I see the scans, but most of them seem rather mundane to be called feats at least for what I consider feats.I mean, yes she got out of a rope, but come on those are very mundane feats for Super heroes, She open a safe still very mundane, stopping a train, that is something worth for that era and I will consider that a nice feat.
But is not what I consider feats in any case. I know she is strong, I already pointed this out, but He is depicted as Stronger often and He is known to be stronger on the popular consensus.
It's worth repeating, I'm doing this chronologically.
I suppose the standard practice is to try to find the biggest feats of character x and compare those to character y, immediately? But the problem isn't just one of feats.
And I need to address those problems.
And I am.
As I said before, stopping a train isn't Wonder Woman's greatest feat, not today, not back when she originated, not at any point in her history that I'm aware of.
I'll take time to prove that with the attachment for this particular post. A scan of Wonder Woman gathering enough ice from Antarctica or wherever to stop a world-menacing threat. Later on I'll supply reference information as I stated is my intention to do for every image possible in this thread.
It's the last time I intend to detour, for, unlike a lot of other people, I say what I mean, and say what I think is true. I rarely, if ever, say anything else, and, 9 times out of 10, I can back up my assertions.
I think I can do so in this case.
I already explained the basis of my reasoning, I did so several times. Now I'm systematically expounding on that, leveling away a host of false arguments along the way.
Here. I'll continue the rest of the points I feel the need to make momentarily. Let me rid you of the idea that stopping a train is the best I have to offer for Wonder Woman feats, and/or nothing equal to your recent Action Comics submissions.
Click on the attachment.
Restatement of criterion.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Don't know what standard you're using for your Superman/Wonder Woman comparison ...Mine is more or less this, in regards to physical strength: Unifying just about EVERY thing I know about either character, their background, how their powers work, their character limitations, plot limitations, overall performance in relatively objective tests such as lifting known weights, competitions against each other and other mutual foes and powerful beings, origins, and basic concepts, Wonder Woman 2003-2011 would win an armwrestling match against Superman, and nearly any other contest that involved pure physical strength.
I'll repeat the above as often as necessary, condensing and collating until it is clear to the average reader, Salsa.
Or at least to you.
You should see I'm being quite systematic.
Let's re-list the main points from that self-quoted paragraph.
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their background,
how their powers work,
their character limitations,
plot limitations,
overall performance in relatively objective tests such as lifting known weights,
competitions against each other
and other mutual foes
and powerful beings,
origins,
and basic concepts,
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I've covered "basic concept". At least for Wonder Woman.
That was as follows:
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" Not even girls want to be girls so long as our feminine archetype lacks force, strength, and power. Not wanting to be girls, they don't want to be tender, submissive, peace-loving as good women are. Women's strong qualities have become despised because of their weakness. The obvious remedy is to create a feminine character with all the strength of Superman plus all the allure of a good and beautiful woman."
-- William Moulton Marston, creator of Wonder Woman, 1943, The American Scholar
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What is Superman's?
I don't know.
It's not "you will believe a man can fly". That came later.
It's not "strongest one there is". That's Hulk, not Superman.
Presumably you have an answer for that, now would be an appropriate time to supply it.
Background?
That was what was being discussed these past 2 or 3 pages.
Both creations were obviously affected by and influenced by World War II, but Superman preceded World War II, so presumably that will make for some differences.
It's interesting to see Lois Lane imperiled by 1930s gangs, then again by natural disasters or accidents, then again by Nazis and war criminals. Thanks for that bridge showing from Action Comics #5, by the way. Very cool. And previously unseen.
I'll mention now that Wonder Woman and Superman during this time occupied relatively separate universes. Action Comics was its own realm. National Comics, Wonder Woman's producer, was another. Fawcett Comics was a third, but, unlike National and Action, the company that was to become DC was not interested in partnering with Fawcett.
Fawcett was the producer of Captain Marvel.
You mentioned "popular consensus" a post or 2 ago.
I think this is an important point.
For Superman was popular. And so was Captain Marvel.
But Wonder Woman not QUITE so much as either of these 2.
But Superman was considered tops in his reality.
And Captain Marvel tops in his own.
And Wonder Woman tops in HER own.
But Wonder Woman did not QUITE have the popular support of Captain Marvel or Superman. So people don't KNOW that she was tops in her realm to nearly the same extent that they know of Supes or CM.
Frustratingly, few people come forward showing how she used to be. I suspect that is because her readership from early days is either largely gone now, or not Internet savvy.
Sadly, this is understandable, a fan just 10 years old back then would be in his 80s now.
By contrast, the people of 20 years later, 1960s readers, they would have some internet experience, and want to write about their childhood heroes. But these fans would have started reading about Wonder Woman when she and Supes were forced into a shared reality, and Wonder Woman's creator was gone and thus had less influence on what his heroine did in the magazines. After great feats had been already compiled.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider--------------------------------------------------------------------
their background,
how their powers work,
their character limitations,
plot limitations,
overall performance in relatively objective tests such as lifting known weights,
competitions against each other
and other mutual foes
and powerful beings,
origins,
and basic concepts,
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Background has been touched upon. Background includes lots of physical strength feats, though, and needs to be revisited. How their powers work has not been addressed to any large extent for Wonder Woman, and will be. Their character limitations, ditto. Plot limitations we'll get to. Overall performance in relatively objective tests such as lifting known weights? Been covering that. That's what this page and the previous one were starting to address. Necessary to do a lot of them, though, because people are of the mind that Wonder Woman just did something "super" occasionally, and that whenever she did it was just some writer screwing around instead of something intrinsic to the character.
For this last set ...
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
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competitions against each other
and other mutual foes
and powerful beings,
origins,
and basic concepts,
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[/B]
... well, I'm going to perform what will SEEM like a detour in the most complete way possible, but in reality is not. And at the end of it I will ask you a question and would appreciate if you would answer it truthfully.
