Superman Vs Wonderwoman

"Strongest punch I've taken.
Ever."

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Source: Superman/Batman #56, Volume 1
Writers: Michael Green & Mike Johnson
Penciller: Rags Morales
Date: March 2009
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The question, and I'm not being facetious here, I want a serious answer:

"How do we know this is NOT Batman as he normally is, NOT Batman as he should be, NOT something more than a power boost given to Batman ONLY so the writers can tell their story with him?"

Yet again the KMC Image Host Providing program seems to be glitching. As I type this, for instance, naturally as the registered "Bluewaterrider" (as opposed to an unregistered "guest" user), I see a small image of Batman nursing his jaw. When I click on it though, I get the image of him greeting Diana and the Justice League.

Assuming that happens for unregistered users and everybody else, here is (or at least I hope it will be) the full scan that matches up to that ...

Because he's never taken a full power shot from Superman?

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
"Strongest punch I've taken.
Ever."

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Source: Superman/Batman #56, Volume 1
Writers: Michael Green & Mike Johnson
Penciller: Rags Morales
Date: March 2009
---------------------------------------------------------------------

The question, and I'm not being facetious here, I want a serious answer:

"How do we know this is NOT Batman as he normally is, NOT Batman as he should be, NOT something more than a power boost given to Batman ONLY so the writers can tell their story with him?"

Originally posted by -Pr-
Because he's never taken a full power shot from Superman?

P.R., you should stick around longer per visit.

Are you asking me if Batman has ever taken a full shot from Blue? I don't really know. I DO know that comic writers have found ways for Bats to take and gauge the punching power of some seriously heavyweight players.
Superman/Batman #56 is one such example.
Unless I have my issue numbers mixed up, though, Superman/Batman #12 is another. That one features Batman taking punches from DARKSEID, DC's "Big Bad" himself, certainly a Superman-level power, yet surviving due to the protective otherworldly shielding of a Mother Box, which has proven able to sustain people past otherwise fatal impacts and injury.
I recall, too, though I don't own the issue, that Batman once used the then-popularly featured "Black Rock" or "Blackstone"
to fight Superman after Superman went crazy or got mind-controlled yet again. Superman was trying to kill Batman in that instance, yet the Blackrock enables people to contend with Kryptonian level threats, as demonstrated in, say, Superman #223. If ever there was a time writers found a way to have Batman "tank" a true Kryptonian-level punch, that would have been a prime time for it.

Regardless, whether Superman himself actually did so, Batman IS credentialed where rating letitimate metahuman punches is concerned. Re-examine the attachment at the end of this post for some unexpected proof.

Originally posted by -Pr-

Matt Idelsen saying [Supergirl is stronger than Superman] doesn't really mean much when the comics blatantly contradict it.

I was hoping you would show up again, mainly because I wanted to know what you meant by, or were thinking of, when you said what I quoted for you just above.

P.R., are you really referring to the same character I am?
I'm not sure you realize, Matt Idelsen was saying that of the CURRENT DCnU Supergirl, and not Jeph Loeb's or Sterling Gates' rendition.

Here, take a look if you haven't seen this, and please clarify what you meant or were basing your statement on ...

---------------------------------------------------------------------
" ... [T]he cover was shown to issue #5. Included were towers from Argo City. She goes from Argo City to Siberia.

Issue #2 pages were shown, and it includes the first time Supergirl meets her cousin, Superman. "There's a certain distrust," Asrar said with a laugh as a slide was shown where Supergirl punches Superman.

"She's actually stronger than Kal-El," Idelson said. Johnson said, "She came out of that pod ready to go, as people noticed," he said.

The beginning of the second issue starts on Krypton, Johnson said, then it moves to Earth and establishes the new status quo for the relationship and distrust between Superman and Supergirl..."
---------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.newsarama.com/comics/nycc-2011-dc-superman-panel-111015.html

Back to Wonder Woman.

Salsa, like the train, the scan of Wonder Woman with the safe was NOT to say "This is Wonder Woman's greatest strength feat ever". It was, as I alluded to before, an instance of some known Superman feat being matched and/or superceded by a Wonder Woman feat.

Again, I'm going on what I know, I know that these 2 characters were produced by different companies, I know that Marston designed Wonder Woman as the answer to Superman, I know that he had Wonder Woman performing a lot of strength feats, I know that Superman was often the model.

Famously in Action Comics #1, for instance, Superman lifts a car and runs with it a bit.

Well, in a seeming instance of "Keeping up with the Joneses", Wonder Woman soon does the following ...

As far as the safe incident goes, Salsa, it was not my primary purpose to show people discounting women, even as today.

It was, again, an instance of a feat I know to have been done by Superman being superceded by a greater Wonder Woman feat.

Surely at some future point from that time Superman must have one-upped himself. That is not the point.
Most such instances would probably be unknown to me, truthfully. I'd wager that would be true for the majority of fans in this forum.

Regardless, the fact is many of Superman's well known strength feats were noted, and matched, and superceded by Wonder Woman writers in the early days.

Again, for instance, in Action Comics #1, Superman famously rips down a steel door. It happens to be to a governor's house, and he's doing so to try to wake the governor in time to get him to stop a wrongful execution.

Well, that scene is impressive. But Wonder Woman not only handles steel but thicker steel. It is not the steel of a door but a vault, which people KNOW to be impressively thick.

And, of course, on top of that, it is electrified.

One upmanship by Wonder Woman on the Man of Steel by TWO points of difficulty.

Take a look at the 2 scenes side-by-side now and my reason for earlier posting "the case of Thomas Tighe" should make more sense:

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Yet again the KMC Image Host Providing program seems to be glitching. As I type this, for instance, naturally as the registered "Bluewaterrider" (as opposed to an unregistered "guest" user), I see a small image of Batman nursing his jaw. When I click on it though, I get the image of him greeting Diana and the Justice League.

Assuming that happens for unregistered users and everybody else, here is (or at least I hope it will be) the full scan that matches up to that ...

Batman states also

"and since Superman is living life as normal man, that only leaves one option"

So he knows is Diana, because He deduces it can't be Superman.

But the FIRST option WAS SUPERMAN.

Also IIRC Batman had spent a long time in the shadows, meaning no sun-light so is not power level at it's peak.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
P.R., you should stick around longer per visit.

Are you asking me if Batman has ever taken a full shot from Blue? I don't really know. I DO know that comic writers have found ways for Bats to take and gauge the punching power of some seriously heavyweight players.
Superman/Batman #56 is one such example.
Unless I have my issue numbers mixed up, though, Superman/Batman #12 is another. That one features Batman taking punches from DARKSEID, DC's "Big Bad" himself, certainly a Superman-level power, yet surviving due to the protective otherworldly shielding of a Mother Box, which has proven able to sustain people past otherwise fatal impacts and injury.
I recall, too, though I don't own the issue, that Batman once used the then-popularly featured "Black Rock" or "Blackstone"
to fight Superman after Superman went crazy or got mind-controlled yet again. Superman was trying to kill Batman in that instance, yet the Blackrock enables people to contend with Kryptonian level threats, as demonstrated in, say, Superman #223. If ever there was a time writers found a way to have Batman "tank" a true Kryptonian-level punch, that would have been a prime time for it.

Regardless, whether Superman himself actually did so, Batman IS credentialed where rating letitimate metahuman punches is concerned. Re-examine the attachment at the end of this post for some unexpected proof.

I was hoping you would show up again, mainly because I wanted to know what you meant by, or were thinking of, when you said what I quoted for you just above.

P.R., are you really referring to the same character I am?
I'm not sure you realize, Matt Idelsen was saying that of the CURRENT DCnU Supergirl, and not Jeph Loeb's or Sterling Gates' rendition.

Here, take a look if you haven't seen this, and please clarify what you meant or were basing your statement on ...

---------------------------------------------------------------------
" ... [T]he cover was shown to issue #5. Included were towers from Argo City. She goes from Argo City to Siberia.

Issue #2 pages were shown, and it includes the first time Supergirl meets her cousin, Superman. "There's a certain distrust," Asrar said with a laugh as a slide was shown where Supergirl punches Superman.

[B]"She's actually stronger than Kal-El," Idelson said. Johnson said, "She came out of that pod ready to go, as people noticed," he said.

The beginning of the second issue starts on Krypton, Johnson said, then it moves to Earth and establishes the new status quo for the relationship and distrust between Superman and Supergirl..."
---------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.newsarama.com/comics/nycc-2011-dc-superman-panel-111015.html [/B]

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Problem #1. I'm taking this chronologically to answer your page 12 assertion that, not only do you think Superman is physically stronger than Wonder Woman, but that this has ALWAYS been the case.
(You use the phrasing "since forever", which, in American English, is not significantly different from saying exactly that.)
I'm covering this chronologically to answer more than that, of course, but I've already explained as much several times in this thread.

OK, Let me rephrase that. MORE OFTEN.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Problem #2. You haven't defined what you consider a feat.

Is not what I consider a feat, I told you IMO are mundane feats, is not like I set the standards for feats.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Problem #3. You haven't defined, not even in rough terms, unless I've been extraordinarily and unintentionally oblivious to your explanations, what you mean by "strong".

As in physically capable of holding more weight or punching harder or pulling, lifting, pushing?

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
#3, especially, becomes significant when you THEN follow up physical strength showings from me by balking and saying "X was a greater feat than your feat Y by Z order of magnitude".

For example, I explain I'm taking my interpretation off of what is most commonly seen and KNOWN for early Superman.
I use the specific examples of Superman lifting that car in Action Comics #1, ripping down the steel door to the governor's room
(to wake the governor and get him to grant an emergency pardon to a wrongly accused man and save his life),
and his popular "more powerful than a locomotive".

The car and train allusions are known the world over.
The WORLD over; not just among Man of Steel aficionados .
What comic fan who wanders into this thread has to read a book to discover Superman can pick up and run with a car or stop a train?
It's been covered by book, radio, magazine, and film throughout the years, both animated and live action, in fact all these media simultaneously, and that since about the 1940s.

We are comic book readers, WE KNOW who can do what and how. Is commonly know Superman is stronger, because He is usually given that feat, even if WW is around.

I know WW in comics is not WW in Super friends, but she is not Stronger than Superman in comics

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Not so for Wonder Woman. The average fan doesn't know of her from her days of origin. He knows of her from the 1970s Lynda Carter show or the popular "Superfriends" cartoon at best, if he knows her at all.
The comparatively small fraction of comic-reading forum-visiting fans know a little more, but most of these, too, are relatively uninformed.

And I will repeat to you, make a RESPECT THREAD, So you can inform the general public that WW is not Super friends strong.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I am honestly wondering, for instance, where you yourself think she is strength-wise, and NOT in relation to Superman or anyone else, but simply in terms of what she can do on the reasonably objective scale of lifting or controlling the movement of very heavy objects.
Simultaneous WITH that, I genuinely desire to know WHEN you think she was able to perform the biggest lifts or movements on your list.

I know she can pull 1/3 of earth, 1/3 of the moon and slow down eternity. But I don't think she is stronger than Captain Marvel, Orion, Konvict, Titus, Doomsday or Synnar I think she is physically stronger than Martian Manhunter and MAYBE a teenager female Kryptonian from the house of El, but that is up for debate.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
For your objection, "Superman performed a feat far greater than stopping a train in this showing right here" makes the most sense to me if you're thinking:

"Wonder Woman's greatest feat was stopping a train. She has no feats equal to the one I'm showing here."

But I'm not showing Wonder Woman stopping a train to say
"This is her best strength feat."

It's not.

It's not even close.

And I don't really think you're aware of that.

Yes, I am, this is the reason why I told you it was an OK feat for the era, but is not her best. this is why showing her getting free from a rope or opening a safe is a meager feat for the level of characters We are talking about as meager as Superman breaking a hotel door.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
But when you're comparing Wondy to a guy who is known the world over specifically for BEING "more powerful than a locomotive", and she is not, it only makes sense to show this woman stopping a locomotive.

Because most people didn't KNOW she could do that.
Let alone that she was ACCUSTOMED to doing that sort of that thing in her books.

It's a natural starting point.

It gives me the impression that You are trying to say that just because Superman is stronger than a locomotive and WW stopped a locomotive therefore WW can stop Superman or she is = strong.

A>B
C>B

THEREFORE

A=C

Bad reasoning

Originally posted by bluewaterrider

The question, and I'm not being facetious here, I want a serious answer:

"How do we know this is NOT Batman as he normally is,

Because He is flying on the moon?

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
How do we know this is NOT Batman as he should be,

Because He has Superman's powers?

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
How do we know this is NOT something more than a power boost given to Batman ONLY so the writers can tell their story with him?"

This is what that is. And Batman was already loosing powers IIRC because of the lack of sun.

I'm seriously trying to follow this in a nice way and trying to respect your point of view. But I still do not see a point in this showing but lets continue.

BUT I HAVE TO RE-READ AND SEE IF BATMAN WAS ALREADY SUN CHARGED.

Wait I'll take that back as it seems he was already sun charged.

Originally posted by biensalsa
Batman states also

"and since Superman is living life as normal man, that only leaves one option"

So he knows is Diana, because He deduces it can't be Superman.

But the FIRST option WAS SUPERMAN.

Also IIRC Batman had spent a long time in the shadows, meaning no sun-light so is not power level at it's peak.

I just check the scans and it seems he was already sun charged.

Still this does not means Batman can't deduce who is behind the punch since He know it can't be Clark

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
It's worth repeating, I'm doing this chronologically.
I suppose the standard practice is to try to find the biggest feats of character x and compare those to character y, immediately? But the problem isn't just one of feats.
And I need to address those problems.

And I am.

As I said before, stopping a train isn't Wonder Woman's greatest feat, not today, not back when she originated, not at any point in her history that I'm aware of.

I'll take time to prove that with the attachment for this particular post. A scan of Wonder Woman gathering enough ice from Antarctica or wherever to stop a world-menacing threat. Later on I'll supply reference information as I stated is my intention to do for every image possible in this thread.

It's the last time I intend to detour, for, unlike a lot of other people, I say what I mean, and say what I think is true. I rarely, if ever, say anything else, and, 9 times out of 10, I can back up my assertions.

I think I can do so in this case.

I already explained the basis of my reasoning, I did so several times. Now I'm systematically expounding on that, leveling away a host of false arguments along the way.

Here. I'll continue the rest of the points I feel the need to make momentarily. Let me rid you of the idea that stopping a train is the best I have to offer for Wonder Woman feats, and/or nothing equal to your recent Action Comics submissions.

Click on the attachment.

Ok an this is a nice feat IMO for WW, But still...

In October 1946, Superman withstood the blast of two atomic bombs and could fly into the heart of the sun (that includes space & interplanetary travel) or earth's molten core. At this point he could fly at speeds faster than light itself and travel through time.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
[B]Restatement of criterion.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=525118&pagenumber=6

I'll repeat the above as often as necessary, condensing and collating until it is clear to the average reader, Salsa.

Or at least to you. [/B]

Geez! Thanks?

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
You should see I'm being quite systematic.

Let's re-list the main points from that self-quoted paragraph.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
their background,
how their powers work,
their character limitations,
plot limitations,
overall performance in relatively objective tests such as lifting known weights,
competitions against each other
and other mutual foes
and powerful beings,
origins,
and basic concepts,
--------------------------------------------------------------------

I've covered "basic concept". At least for Wonder Woman.
That was as follows:

--------------------------------------------------------------------

" Not even girls want to be girls so long as our feminine archetype lacks force, strength, and power. Not wanting to be girls, they don't want to be tender, submissive, peace-loving as good women are. Women's strong qualities have become despised because of their weakness. The obvious remedy is to create a feminine character with all the strength of Superman plus all the allure of a good and beautiful woman."

-- William Moulton Marston, creator of Wonder Woman, 1943, The American Scholar
--------------------------------------------------------------------

Ok, We got that

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
What is Superman's?
I don't know.

It's not "you will believe a man can fly". That came later.
It's not "strongest one there is". That's Hulk, not Superman.

Presumably you have an answer for that, now would be an appropriate time to supply it.

Really? Superman is the Super hero who set the standard for this:

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
The obvious remedy is to create a feminine character with all the strength of Superman

And this

http://myfivebest.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/superheroes.jpg

Superman is the American ICON who fathered all Superheroes including Wonder Woman. Fighting for truth, justice and the america way?

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Background?

That was what was being discussed these past 2 or 3 pages.
Both creations were obviously affected by and influenced by World War II, but Superman preceded World War II, so presumably that will make for some differences.

It's interesting to see Lois Lane imperiled by 1930s gangs, then again by natural disasters or accidents, then again by Nazis and war criminals. Thanks for that bridge showing from Action Comics #5, by the way. Very cool. And previously unseen.

I'll mention now that Wonder Woman and Superman during this time occupied relatively separate universes. Action Comics was its own realm. National Comics, Wonder Woman's producer, was another. Fawcett Comics was a third, but, unlike National and Action, the company that was to become DC was not interested in partnering with Fawcett.

Fawcett was the producer of Captain Marvel.
You mentioned "popular consensus" a post or 2 ago.
I think this is an important point.
For Superman was popular. And so was Captain Marvel.
But Wonder Woman not QUITE so much as either of these 2.
But Superman was considered tops in his reality.
And Captain Marvel tops in his own.
And Wonder Woman tops in HER own.

But Wonder Woman did not QUITE have the popular support of Captain Marvel or Superman. So people don't KNOW that she was tops in her realm to nearly the same extent that they know of Supes or CM.

Frustratingly, few people come forward showing how she used to be. I suspect that is because her readership from early days is either largely gone now, or not Internet savvy.
Sadly, this is understandable, a fan just 10 years old back then would be in his 80s now.
By contrast, the people of 20 years later, 1960s readers, they would have some internet experience, and want to write about their childhood heroes. But these fans would have started reading about Wonder Woman when she and Supes were forced into a shared reality, and Wonder Woman's creator was gone and thus had less influence on what his heroine did in the magazines. After great feats had been already compiled.

Your Welcome for the scans and again, you should follow my advice and post her feats so people learn more about her.

I'm now collecting feats for earth one silver age Superman and earth 2 golden age Superman, That is the reason why I had that Action Comics #5 scan.

I have to say. I hope I don't offend you, sometimes I tend to be sarcastic, but It is nice to read and learn by discussion in this Super hero threads.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
P.R., you should stick around longer per visit.

Are you asking me if Batman has ever taken a full shot from Blue? I don't really know. I DO know that comic writers have found ways for Bats to take and gauge the punching power of some seriously heavyweight players.
Superman/Batman #56 is one such example.
Unless I have my issue numbers mixed up, though, Superman/Batman #12 is another. That one features Batman taking punches from DARKSEID, DC's "Big Bad" himself, certainly a Superman-level power, yet surviving due to the protective otherworldly shielding of a Mother Box, which has proven able to sustain people past otherwise fatal impacts and injury.
I recall, too, though I don't own the issue, that Batman once used the then-popularly featured "Black Rock" or "Blackstone"
to fight Superman after Superman went crazy or got mind-controlled yet again. Superman was trying to kill Batman in that instance, yet the Blackrock enables people to contend with Kryptonian level threats, as demonstrated in, say, Superman #223. If ever there was a time writers found a way to have Batman "tank" a true Kryptonian-level punch, that would have been a prime time for it.

Regardless, whether Superman himself actually did so, Batman IS credentialed where rating letitimate metahuman punches is concerned. Re-examine the attachment at the end of this post for some unexpected proof.

I was hoping you would show up again, mainly because I wanted to know what you meant by, or were thinking of, when you said what I quoted for you just above.

P.R., are you really referring to the same character I am?
I'm not sure you realize, Matt Idelsen was saying that of the CURRENT DCnU Supergirl, and not Jeph Loeb's or Sterling Gates' rendition.

Here, take a look if you haven't seen this, and please clarify what you meant or were basing your statement on ...

---------------------------------------------------------------------
" ... [T]he cover was shown to issue #5. Included were towers from Argo City. She goes from Argo City to Siberia.

Issue #2 pages were shown, and it includes the first time Supergirl meets her cousin, Superman. "There's a certain distrust," Asrar said with a laugh as a slide was shown where Supergirl punches Superman.

[B]"She's actually stronger than Kal-El," Idelson said. Johnson said, "She came out of that pod ready to go, as people noticed," he said.

The beginning of the second issue starts on Krypton, Johnson said, then it moves to Earth and establishes the new status quo for the relationship and distrust between Superman and Supergirl..."
---------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.newsarama.com/comics/nycc-2011-dc-superman-panel-111015.html [/B]

She is not stronger

, , ,

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
As far as the safe incident goes, Salsa, it was not my primary purpose to show people discounting women, even as today.

It was, again, an instance of a feat I know to have been done by Superman being superceded by a greater Wonder Woman feat.

Surely at some future point from that time Superman must have one-upped himself. That is not the point.
Most such instances would probably be unknown to me, truthfully. I'd wager that would be true for the majority of fans in this forum.

Regardless, the fact is many of Superman's well known strength feats were noted, and matched, and superceded by Wonder Woman writers in the early days.

Again, for instance, in Action Comics #1, Superman famously rips down a steel door. It happens to be to a governor's house, and he's doing so to try to wake the governor in time to get him to stop a wrongful execution.

Well, that scene is impressive. But Wonder Woman not only handles steel but thicker steel. It is not the steel of a door but a vault, which people KNOW to be impressively thick.

And, of course, on top of that, it is electrified.

One upmanship by Wonder Woman on the Man of Steel by TWO points of difficulty.

Take a look at the 2 scenes side-by-side now and my reason for earlier posting "the case of Thomas Tighe" should make more sense:

Now that I'm collecting feats for the early days I noticed something very interesting here.

Comic books were trying to outsell each other by feats.

Hence WW lifting a bus when SM just lifted a car, next feat SM holds a bridge and so on.

It was a common practice back then.

So this will be a common practice until they started to put limits on their heroes, except for Superman and that is why He was able to sneeze solar systems.

Salsa,

I was working on a post earlier tonight that did not get sent through. Either a problem with KMC or a problem with my Internet. Or both.

At any rate, I'll post what I typed and (fortunately) saved to word document before your many replies above.

Again understand this was written before your replies.

If I have time tonight, I'll directly address some or all of your recent posts.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
1. basic concept
2. origin
3. background
4. overall performance in relatively objective tests such as lifting known weights
5. how powers work
6. character limitations
7. plot limitations
8. competitions against each other and other mutual foes and powerful beings
--------------------------------------------------------------------

Re-ordering my criterion for maximum accessibility, comprehension, etcetera.

Basic concept, covered. The argument that proceeds naturally from it is that, if Wonder Woman does not have “all the strength of Superman plus” she is not serving her purpose as Wonder Woman.
Good argument or bad argument, that IS what the line of reasoning of her basic concept implies.

The origin hasn't been covered. That is more time-consuming than most of the other sub-topics, so I'm avoiding it for now.

Background I'm establishing more and more. You can see she was a tank buster from the start if you've been following this thread, same as Superman. Worth mentioning that Superman wasn't a planet-mover to start; he took TIME to work up to that sort of thing. Nor, because he had to serve story functions, was his upswing necessarily linear. He alternates from absurd challenges to mundane ones. So, too, does Wonder Woman. They are very alike in that respect.

Strength feats I'm beginning to post now on a fairly regular basis. Necessary to prove she had a track record of doing them. Interesting to note how prevalent they are when she is in her own reality at National; perhaps it takes editorial mandate to stop her from showing what she can do?

How powers work. Combination of things. Will, regular exercise, belief in self, pantheon force and guidance.
Interesting things come from examining this one; I'll get to it soon.

Character limitations. Harder to define in earlier eras than later. Modern times, both have a "no kill" rule, supposedly.
Harder to prove it exists in their war-era debuts.

Plot limitations. Wonder Woman had great physical strength.
Her invulnerability was much more variable. Changed according to story needs, it seems. Same with other powers.

Competitions against each other and other mutual foes and powerful beings. Begun from the beginning of the thread.
"Superbat" was merely the most recent, for me; numerous posters have mentioned other encounters, all I plan to get to.

Perhaps I can even get Salsa to show the wrestling match Superman lost against Diana in Salsa's photo collection and where that was taken from ...

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Salsa,

I was working on a post earlier tonight that did not get sent through. Either a problem with KMC or a problem with my Internet. Or both.

At any rate, I'll post what I typed and (fortunately) saved to word document before your many replies above.

Again understand this was written before your replies.

If I have time tonight, I'll directly address some or all of your recent posts.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
1. basic concept
2. origin
3. background
4. overall performance in relatively objective tests such as lifting known weights
5. how powers work
6. character limitations
7. plot limitations
8. competitions against each other and other mutual foes and powerful beings
--------------------------------------------------------------------

Re-ordering my criterion for maximum accessibility, comprehension, etcetera.

Basic concept, covered. The argument that proceeds naturally from it is that, if Wonder Woman does not have “all the strength of Superman plus” she is not serving her purpose as Wonder Woman.
Good argument or bad argument, that IS what the line of reasoning of her basic concept implies.

The origin hasn't been covered. That is more time-consuming than most of the other sub-topics, so I'm avoiding it for now.

Background I'm establishing more and more. You can see she was a tank buster from the start if you've been following this thread, same as Superman. Worth mentioning that Superman wasn't a planet-mover to start; he took TIME to work up to that sort of thing. Nor, because he had to serve story functions, was his upswing necessarily linear. He alternates from absurd challenges to mundane ones. So, too, does Wonder Woman. They are very alike in that respect.

Strength feats I'm beginning to post now on a fairly regular basis. Necessary to prove she had a track record of doing them. Interesting to note how prevalent they are when she is in her own reality at National; perhaps it takes editorial mandate to stop her from showing what she can do?

How powers work. Combination of things. Will, regular exercise, belief in self, pantheon force and guidance.
Interesting things come from examining this one; I'll get to it soon.

Character limitations. Harder to define in earlier eras than later. Modern times, both have a "no kill" rule, supposedly.
Harder to prove it exists in their war-era debuts.

Plot limitations. Wonder Woman had great physical strength.
Her invulnerability was much more variable. Changed according to story needs, it seems. Same with other powers.

Competitions against each other and other mutual foes and powerful beings. Begun from the beginning of the thread.
"Superbat" was merely the most recent, for me; numerous posters have mentioned other encounters, all I plan to get to.

Perhaps I can even get Salsa to show the wrestling match Superman lost against Diana in Salsa's photo collection and where that was taken from ...

You mean this?

, ,

Superman V2 #165

Salsa,

Your response to Supergirl and the Matt Idlesen statement that she is actually stronger than he is illustrates why it is necessary to repeat some things.

The scans you used?

Those are from Jeph Loeb's Supergirl and Sterling Gates' Supergirl runs. Circa 2004 and 2009 or so, respectively.

Completely different Kara Zor-el.

Please note that I specified Matt Idlesen's comment refers to the recent DCnU Supergirl, not the one we had a couple years ago. Even so, you show me scans of the Supergirl we had a couple years ago.

If you, who have given me the fairest hearing so far in this thread, can make a mistake like that, overlooking what I said, how much more so the average reader?

Proof again: some things warrant repeating.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Salsa,

Your response to Supergirl and the Matt Idlesen statement that she is actually stronger than he is illustrates why it is necessary to repeat some things.

The scans you used?

Those are from Jeph Loeb's Supergirl and Sterling Gates' Supergirl runs. Circa 2004 and 2009 or so, respectively.

Completely different Kara Zor-el.

Please note that I specified Matt Idlesen's comment refers to the recent DCnU Supergirl, not the one we had a couple years ago. Even so, you show me scans of the Supergirl we had a couple years ago.

If you, who have given me the fairest hearing so far in this thread, can make a mistake like that, overlooking what I said, how much more so the average reader?

Proof again: some things warrant repeating.

You are correct and I should have noticed, I went mostly for the scan showed.

But Supergirl in DCnU is not stronger.

I Don't have the scans available, but for sure she is not stronger.