Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I meant EXACTLY that episode, Salsa! Thank you!
Hope you notice and read the scans
Superman is distracted and upset because of Lex Luthor being president.
Wonder Woman points this out and she pins him.
Superman gets rid of Wonder Woman rather easily, even though Wonder Woman has the leverage advantage and He does this with one arm when He realizes he is not focus.
Originally posted by biensalsa
Now that I'm collecting feats for the early days I noticed something very interesting here.Comic books were trying to outsell each other by feats.
Hence WW lifting a bus when SM just lifted a car, next feat SM holds a bridge and so on.
It was a common practice back then.
So this will be a common practice until they started to put limits on their heroes, except for Superman and that is why He was able to sneeze solar systems.
Well, we'll get to SilverBlue in due time.
For now I'll only point out that DC put the fear of litigation into its competitors, most notably Fawcett Comics, owner of Captain Marvel.
CM was the most popular superhero in the world.
UNTIL, that is, the people at DC took them to court.
I imagine that made a lot of other storytellers a bit gunshy afterwards ...
Thank you for acknowledging the point, at any rate.
Here's a cleaner side-by-side of the car, bus, and safe examples which I intended to post a little earlier:
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Well, we'll get to SilverBlue in due time.For now I'll only point out that DC put the fear of litigation into its competitors, most notably Fawcett Comics, owner of Captain Marvel.
CM was the most popular superhero in the world.
UNTIL, that is, the people at DC took them to court.I imagine that made a lot of other storytellers a bit gunshy afterwards ...
Thank you for acknowledging the point, at any rate.
Here's a cleaner side-by-side of the car, bus, and safe examples which I intended to post a little earlier:
--------------------------------------------------------------------
1. basic concept
2. origin
3. background
4. overall performance in relatively objective tests such as lifting known weights
5. how powers work
6. character limitations
7. plot limitations
8. competitions against each other and other mutual foes and powerful beings
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Been feeling kind of ... "glue-y" today, Salsa.
Nevertheless, wanted to answer a few of your questions and address some points. You gave a lot TO answer; this will seem like stream-of-consciousness.
In no particular order:
The Superman/Batman 56 scans were not meant as a direct proof that Wonder Woman is stronger than Superman. It fits the overall idea that she is. But it was not really posted with the idea of conveying that point.
What does sb56 point out?
Several things:
One, there is a set of rules that governs the character of Batman, his physical properties, his character properties, what he is capable of, what he can do. The reason any reader familiar with Batman would know this is not Batman as he normally is, is not a proper normal portrayal of him, is because all the rules that normally govern Batman are being broken. Batman cannot fly. He is human and humans do not have comic book flight a la Captain Marvel. He is charging himself via the sun and says he is full afterwards, like someone who has just eaten a meal. That is not what ordinary humans do. It is not what Batman does. He does not just fly out into space where there is no air to breathe, and charge himself in the sun, which would fry a normal person to a crisp if they could somehow get there and survive the journey in the vacuum of space. He certainly can not take punches of the magnitude that Wonder Woman delivers to send him out of Earth orbit cratering back on the Moon.
The mere fact that you see all these rules being violated tells you this is not a normal portrayal and some plot device or several devices are in place. In short, there are basic CONCEPTS governing what Batman can and cannot do. Any semblance of logic we get from a Batman story and his interaction with others takes its interpretation from those.
THAT, in so many words, is what I wanted you to tell me, whatever form that took.
But the idea that basic rules and concepts govern is true for OTHER characters as well.
Including Wonder Woman and Superman.
Yet somehow, in your typical "versus" thread, this basic premise is forgotten.
Notice that practically the first thing out of your mouth was:
"I've got to check to see if Batman was suncharged".
You KNOW, as I do, as most any comic book fan does, that
more yellow sun=more power where post-Crisis Superman is concerned. Yet how many early pages of this thread have people disputing this?
Put Batman up here in place of Superman, though, and suddenly everyone has proper knowledge of how post-Crisis Kryptonian powers work once again.
No trick here. Just strips away a layer of bias people might not even know they have and gets closer to a real discussion and honest examination.
Something I feel needs to be done for many of the posters here.
Who knows? Perhaps I am one of the people that needs that done as well.
(I don't THINK that I am, or course, but ... time will tell.)
By the way, Salsa, the sb56 "Superbat" showing coincides with "how powers work" and "competitions against each other and other powerful beings".
I'm staying a lot closer to topic and to what I've repeatedly, expressly SAID that I would be covering than people likely realize.
> Your response to Supergirl and the Matt Idlesen statement that she is actually stronger than he is illustrates why it is necessary to repeat some things.
Originally posted by biensalsa
You are correct and I should have noticed, I went mostly for the scan showed.But Supergirl in DCnU is not stronger.
I Don't have the scans available, but for sure she is not stronger.
Someday, you'll have to tell me your basis for this opinion.
Originally posted by biensalsa
You are trying to say that just because Superman is stronger than a locomotive and WW stopped a locomotive therefore WW can stop Superman or she is = strong?
No.
But I am suggesting her creator and early writers were serious about showing her to be at least as strong as Superman.
And that they therefore generally had her matching or exceeding the strength feats that were the most popularly well known for Superman at that time, something you yourself admitted a post or two ago.
Originally posted by biensalsa
showing [Wonder Woman] getting free from a rope ... is ... about as meager as Superman breaking a hotel door.
As stated when I posted that, though, the point was NOT to prove she was strong enough to break rope. I'd like to think even the most casual fan knows she can do that, unless it were her own magically unbreakable lasso.
No, but, as I said before, the reason for showing that scene with the young cowboy was to give an instance of people speaking of Wondy in her books THE SAME WAY THEY SPEAK OF SUPERMAN in his.
There are many more instance like that, by the way.
I plan to show quite a few more of them in the days to come.
Originally posted by biensalsa
I know WW in comics is not WW in Super friends, but she is not Stronger than Superman in comicsI know she can pull 1/3 of earth, 1/3 of the moon and slow down eternity. But I don't think she is stronger than Captain Marvel, Orion, Konvict, Titus, Doomsday or Synnar.
I think she is physically stronger than Martian Manhunter and MAYBE a teenager female Kryptonian from the house of El, but that is up for debate.I will repeat to you, make a RESPECT THREAD, So you can inform the general public that WW is not Super friends strong.
I actually already did, and, though you may have forgotten, you yourself actually posted in it several weeks ago.
I think you're telling me you want a better organized and more complete one? But I need a better collection before I can make that happen. There are HUGE gaps in my meager version of an archive. Producing something on the level of, say, DarkCrawler's "Spider-Man" respect thread?
That would require time and resources I don't currently possess. I can DO the job the average respect thread would take, mind you.
Indeed, I've already got some compliments on what I've put up. But I'd like it to be something as worthy of people's time as possible. Including my own.
Originally posted by biensalsa
We are comic book readers, WE KNOW who can do what and how. Is commonly know Superman is stronger, because He is usually given that feat, even if WW is around.
You just mentioned two of the numerous false arguments I'm here to dispel.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
--------------------------------------------------------------------
1. basic concept
2. origin
3. background
4. overall performance in relatively objective tests such as lifting known weights
5. how powers work
6. character limitations
7. plot limitations
8. competitions against each other and other mutual foes and powerful beings
--------------------------------------------------------------------Been feeling kind of ... "glue-y" today, Salsa.
Nevertheless, wanted to answer a few of your questions and address some points. You gave a lot TO answer; this will seem like stream-of-consciousness.
In no particular order:
The Superman/Batman 56 scans were not meant as a direct proof that Wonder Woman is stronger than Superman. It fits the overall idea that she is. But it was not really posted with the idea of conveying that point.
What does sb56 point out?
Several things:One, there is a set of rules that governs the character of Batman, his physical properties, his character properties, what he is capable of, what he can do. The reason any reader familiar with Batman would know this is not Batman as he normally is, is not a proper normal portrayal of him, is because all the rules that normally govern Batman are being broken. Batman cannot fly. He is human and humans do not have comic book flight a la Captain Marvel. He is charging himself via the sun and says he is full afterwards, like someone who has just eaten a meal. That is not what ordinary humans do. It is not what Batman does. He does not just fly out into space where there is no air to breathe, and charge himself in the sun, which would fry a normal person to a crisp if they could somehow get there and survive the journey in the vacuum of space. He certainly can not take punches of the magnitude that Wonder Woman delivers to send him out of Earth orbit cratering back on the Moon.
The mere fact that you see all these rules being violated tells you this is not a normal portrayal and some plot device or several devices are in place. In short, there are basic CONCEPTS governing what Batman can and cannot do. Any semblance of logic we get from a Batman story and his interaction with others takes its interpretation from those.
THAT, in so many words, is what I wanted you to tell me, whatever form that took.
But the idea that basic rules and concepts govern is true for OTHER characters as well.
Including Wonder Woman and Superman.
Yet somehow, in your typical "versus" thread, this basic premise is forgotten.
Notice that practically the first thing out of your mouth was:
"I've got to check to see if Batman was suncharged".
You KNOW, as I do, as most any comic book fan does, that
more yellow sun=more power where post-Crisis Superman is concerned. Yet how many early pages of this thread have people disputing this?Put Batman up here in place of Superman, though, and suddenly everyone has proper knowledge of how post-Crisis Kryptonian powers work once again.
No trick here. Just strips away a layer of bias people might not even know they have and gets closer to a real discussion and honest examination.
Something I feel needs to be done for many of the posters here.
Who knows? Perhaps I am one of the people that needs that done as well.
(I don't THINK that I am, or course, but ... time will tell.)By the way, Salsa, the sb56 "Superbat" showing coincides with "how powers work" and "competitions against each other and other powerful beings".
I'm staying a lot closer to topic and to what I've repeatedly, expressly SAID that I would be covering than people likely realize.
How his powers work is a general idea, people who do know and read Superman know that his powers are psionic based.
His power goes up and down depending on him, this is the reason why He has been under a yellow sun with out powers even though his kryptonian physiology keeps storing or rejecting yellow energy.
This is so true, that there are several instances pointing out this situation, this is why You see Superman operating vs magick, red sun and kryptonite.
If I asked if Batman was sun charged is because I remember he spent time on the shadows and therefore loose some of those powers & Batman is no Superman when it comes to using his powers.
Besides the fact of his powers being psionic based he is a descendant of the good Rao.
To illustrate this point
and this is probably the most important scan
He rejects the solar energy
So you are going by the general idea of How Superman's powers work, but the general idea lacks this knowledge.
THIS IS WHY HE CAN OPERATE IN RED SUN ENVIRONMENTS , VS KRYPTONITE AND VS MAGIC, BECAUSE his powers are linked to his stress.
Superman is the most powerful in the planet This is even the concensus of the quintessence
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
> Your response to Supergirl and the Matt Idlesen statement that she is actually stronger than he is illustrates why it is necessary to repeat some things.Someday, you'll have to tell me your basis for this opinion.
I don't have my hard drive with me, but I'll remember to illustrate you in this DCnU topic as soon as I get it back.
Superman > Supergirl
And is kind of annoying to show cropped scans to make a hero look good and the other bad, don't you think?
You are trying to illustrate a point with a "surgically improved" scan
Originally posted by biensalsa
I don't have my hard drive with me, but I'll remember to illustrate you in this DCnU topic as soon as I get it back.Superman > Supergirl
And is kind of annoying to show cropped scans to make a hero look good and the other bad, don't you think?
You are trying to illustrate a point with a "surgically improved" scan
Although to some extent I understand this objection, I don't think it's a particularly good one.
One, I'm dealing with a size limit for choosing to go with KMC's own image hosting program.
Two, posting the full page wouldn't give any better impression of Superman versus Supergirl.
Think it would? I'll give you the chance to prove it by posting the entirety of the page, as large as KMC will allow (about 240 Kilobytes). In fact, I will make this formal request of you:
Please post the entirety of the page that panel is from.
Then proceed to tell me how this somehow leaves you with a better impression of Superman.
Third, you're pretending I'm holding this discussion in a vacuum and not in a thread full of Superman fans.
If there's any objections to be made against me, you can be SURE they will be made. There's no such thing as anything going unchallenged here.
It's like arguing a whale will suffocate if beached -- when it's swimming in the middle of the Atlantic.
It's not a realistic objection under the present circumstances, Salsa.
The Quintessence scene is meaningless to me, because I'm not arguing power. Pure physical strength is something entirely different than the more nebulous and coverall phrase "most powerful".
On the OTHER hand ...
Originally posted by biensalsa
Besides the fact of [Superman's] powers being psionic based he is a descendant of the good Rao.... his powers are linked to his stress...
... you are going by the general idea of How Superman's powers work, but the general idea lacks this knowledge.
To illustrate this point ...
I've got to say, I don't know whether it is valid or not, I don't know whether DC actually adheres to what you are saying, and I'm not sure what authors would reject or support your claims above, but what you just outlined there was easily the best pro-Superman post in the entire thread. At least as far as I'm concerned.
Mind you, I've still got a gauntlet for your reasoning to run through before I can honestly accept your premise, but nothing in the first 20 pages of this thread warranted the pause this one just did ...
Kudos.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
> Your response to Supergirl and the Matt Idlesen statement that she is actually stronger than he is illustrates why it is necessary to repeat some things.Someday, you'll have to tell me your basis for this opinion.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
The Quintessence scene is meaningless to me, because I'm not arguing power. Pure physical strength is something entirely different than the more nebulous and coverall phrase "most powerful".On the OTHER hand ...
I've got to say, I don't know whether it is valid or not, I don't know whether DC actually adheres to what you are saying, and I'm not sure what authors would reject or support your claims above, but what you just outlined there was easily the best pro-Superman post in the entire thread. At least as far as I'm concerned.
Mind you, I've still got a gauntlet for your reasoning to run through before I can honestly accept your premise, but nothing in the first 20 pages of this thread warranted the pause this one just did ...
Kudos.
Jhon Byrne rebooted Superman thinking that at some point He will create a Superman for a new generation.
So psionic based made sense to him because not all the writers will adhere at byrne power levels and He did not wanted to constrain their creativity , by saying Superman can only do this.
IIRC this was explained in either the man of steel tpb or in another interview.
But even since Byrne era, his power is psionic or will based
here, let me show you this, this is byrne era Superman, Action Comics 585
here, let me show you this, this is byrne era Superman, Action Comics 585
I mean the psyology has something to do, but the psionics are the most important part of his powers and this is something you will know if You grow with Byrne era Superman like I did.
I started reading comics with the pre crisis but I became an avid reader after the crisis.
Let me illustrate this other one to you.
Here is another example
Amalak is a kryptonian hunter, he has weapons that depower kryptonians, He is also physically strong, so strong that he can defeat a kryptonian battlesuit controlled by Batman.
Remember Kryptonian Battlesuits with stand the pressures of the ocean and atomic bombs.
Well Amalak defeats the kryptonian battlesuit physically
After that Amalak faces Superman while using weakness exploitation and Superman even though He should be powerless, surprises Amalak putting up a physical challenge.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Although to some extent I understand this objection, I don't think it's a particularly good one.One, I'm dealing with a size limit for choosing to go with KMC's own image hosting program.
Two, posting the full page wouldn't give any better impression of Superman versus Supergirl.
Think it would? I'll give you the chance to prove it by posting the entirety of the page, as large as KMC will allow (about 240 Kilobytes). In fact, I will make this formal request of you:
Please post the entirety of the page that panel is from.
Then proceed to tell me how this somehow leaves you with a better impression of Superman.Third, you're pretending I'm holding this discussion in a vacuum and not in a thread full of Superman fans.
If there's any objections to be made against me, you can be SURE they will be made. There's no such thing as anything going unchallenged here.
It's like arguing a whale will suffocate if beached -- when it's swimming in the middle of the Atlantic.
It's not a realistic objection under the present circumstances, Salsa.
I don't think other guys are following this thread.
Some guys at the vs forum are very good debaters and Abi and PR are among them, just to mention a few.
Originally posted by biensalsa
I don't think other guys are following this thread.
No, people are very definitely following this thread, Salsa.
I began posting roughly 1 month ago, March 28th, 2012, in this thread. The view count then was 4,000+.
Perhaps it was as high as 4,900.
That was after 2 years of the original poster starting the thread.
In less than 6 weeks, the view count has risen to more than 9,000.
People are definitely following the thread.
Originally posted by biensalsa
Some guys at the vs forum are very good debaters and Abi and PR are among them, just to mention a few.
I respect your opinion, Salsa, but, to judge from this thread at least, I've seen little from Abi save attacks, ridicule, and bullying threats. I outlined earlier some of his tactics, some of them not only dishonest but slanderous. It's continued unabated though the only thing I've ever said to him is that I would not bother directly addressing him again if he persisted in doing that. Perhaps he really is good at debate, but it's not worth my time at this point to try to discover that. More's the pity if he's rewarded for his behavior.
You? You, by contrast, have been stellar.
Overall I consider your way a model of how forum talk should be held.
Your points are consistent, you take the time to listen, you respond in general with good reasoning and comic evidence to back up your points. When you've had disagreements with me, you've been courteous and civil. It has genuinely been a pleasure discussing things with you.
I hope we continue to have the opportunity to do so.
Originally posted by biensalsa
psionics are the most important part of [Superman's] powers and this is something you will know if You grow with Byrne era Superman like I did.Let me illustrate this other one to you...
I appreciate always anyone taking time and effort like this, but, before proceeding any further, I must tell you that the immediate objection that came to mind, that still comes to mind, when you mention "descendent of Rao" as something that sets Superman apart from other Kryptonians, is that SUPERGIRL IS ALSO A DESCENDENT OF RAO.
If lineage is what makes Superman special among Kryptonians, that would apply to Kara Zor-el as well.
And, as you well know, many, if not most, comics narrate or portray Diana as superior to Kara in strength.
Originally posted by biensalsa
psionics are the most important part of [Superman's] powers and this is something you will know if You grow with Byrne era Superman like I did.I started reading comics with the pre crisis but I became an avid reader after the crisis.
Let me illustrate this other one to you.
One other thing I feel the need to mention, though I'm not sure it really affects what you're saying either way (I have not yet looked at the Amalak links you provided),
is that in the 2nd scan you're showing above of Blackstarr, Superman is actually saying "Whoa, THAT's weird" because it is actually KARA's conscious that has been beamed into him!
I'll track down the issue number and other information for you, but that is part of a story that involved the Legion of Super-Heroes, and, believe it or not, PART of Supergirl that was trapped in the 23rd century! So I'm not sure it illustrates what you think it does.
One tangental aside, I AM studying the subscripts on these links as they appear in the quote boxes as I type this to you.
Very impressed with the way you and others are able to put multiple scans into one post. I managed to do that once before; think I used Photobucket to do it (once or twice in my pre-Crisis Supergirl thread), long forgotten since then how I managed that trick ...
Originally posted by biensalsaAmalak is a kryptonian hunter, he has weapons that depower kryptonians, He is also physically strong, so strong that he can defeat a kryptonian battlesuit controlled by Batman.
Remember Kryptonian Battlesuits with stand the pressures of the ocean and atomic bombs.
Well Amalak defeats the kryptonian battlesuit physically
After that Amalak faces Superman while using weakness exploitation and Superman even though He should be powerless, surprises Amalak putting up a physical challenge.
Alright, I actually tried to look at the Amalak scans just now.
Unfortunately, Salsa, they ALL return "Page not found" error messages...
