Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Alright, I actually tried to look at the Amalak scans just now.Unfortunately, Salsa, they ALL return "Page not found" error messages...
This happens some times
Here
just choose the Amalak folder folder
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Alright, I actually tried to look at the Amalak scans just now.Unfortunately, Salsa, they ALL return "Page not found" error messages...
This happens some times
Here
just choose the Amalak folder folder
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I respect your opinion, Salsa, but, to judge from this thread at least, I've seen little from Abi save attacks, ridicule, and bullying threats. I outlined earlier some of his tactics, some of them not only dishonest but slanderous. It's continued unabated though the only thing I've ever said to him is that I would not bother directly addressing him again if he persisted in doing that. Perhaps he really is good at debate, but it's not worth my time at this point to try to discover that. More's the pity if he's rewarded for his behavior.You? You, by contrast, have been stellar.
Overall I consider your way a model of how forum talk should be held.
Your points are consistent, you take the time to listen, you respond in general with good reasoning and comic evidence to back up your points. When you've had disagreements with me, you've been courteous and civil. It has genuinely been a pleasure discussing things with you.
I hope we continue to have the opportunity to do so.
Originally posted by biensalsa
["Page not found"] happens some times ...Here
just choose the Amalak folder folder
Thanks, Salsa.
I'm thinking of several instances now where I seem to remember red sun de-powering happening instantly with Superman and Supergirl, but yours are instances worth considering. Ultimately, as I mentioned before, you're GOING to find inconsistency when you take examination to a certain point, simply because these are works of fiction.
Explanations come after the fact in comic-world not before.
At any rate, you wrote the following just a page or two ago ...
Originally posted by biensalsa
Ok [stopping a literal world-cracking menace at the center of the Earth by pushing mountainous deposits and fields of ice] is a nice feat IMO for WW, but still...In October 1946, Superman withstood the blast of two atomic bombs and could fly into the heart of the sun (that includes space & interplanetary travel) or earth's molten core. At this point he could fly at speeds faster than light itself and travel through time.
I need to remind you: I am arguing Wonder Woman has a relatively pure physical STRENGTH advantage.
I am NOT, and I have said this repeatedly, am NOT arguing that she has an advantage in speed, or toughness, or durability, or heat resistance/invulnerability anything of that sort. She doesn't.
Withstanding atomic bomb blasts is not a measure of strength. Certainly that ability can go along WITH having physical strength and usually does in comics, but they are quite separate. Ditto for being able to withstand the heat of the sun's centre and that sort of thing.
I've explained this, and you agreed with as much before, yet still, even from you, I keep getting examples that try to conflate invulnerability with strength, making absolutely no distinction whatsoever.
Obvious then, since I repeatedly keep getting this response, I need to show cases where Wonder Woman has proven superhuman strength even AS she was vulnerable.
I suppose this would count as part of "basic concepts",
"how powers work" (Wonder Woman is specifically granted great strength from the Greek Pantheon in any given incarnation, among other powers, which do NOT explicitly mention much about invulnerability), and
"character limitations" in at least one interpretation of the phrase,
from the list I've been posting for my criteria almost from the first response to P.R.
Originally posted by biensalsa
Ok an this is a nice feat IMO for WW, But still...In October 1946, Superman withstood the blast of two atomic bombs and could fly into the heart of the sun (that includes space & interplanetary travel) or earth's molten core. At this point he could fly at speeds faster than light itself and travel through time.
So, again, finding it necessary to remind people that there is a difference between strength and invulnerability, some instances of Wonder Woman showing superstrength even AS she demonstrates vulnerability ...
Originally posted by biensalsa
Ok an this is a nice feat IMO for WW, But still...In October 1946, Superman withstood the blast of two atomic bombs and could fly into the heart of the sun (that includes space & interplanetary travel) or earth's molten core. At this point he could fly at speeds faster than light itself and travel through time.
This first submission should be fairly clear.
Wonder Woman succumbs to gas. She is strong; she is still vulnerable. After being knocked out by gas, she comes to, and, finding herself chained to a wall with Trevor and tons of stone collapsing on her, she breaks the chains holding her, supports the tons of weight above her long enough to get both of them free, and immediately proceeds to battle the Japanese army.
Strength, even superstrength, is NOT invulnerability.
Oh, and apologies, Salsa -- I've lagged overmuch in maintaining reference information for all these.
Previous submission (Wonder Woman gassed by Japanese Princess, breaking chains of self and Trevor, supporting collapsing tons of wall/ceiling/stone/whatever, then battling Japanese army)
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Source: Sensation Comics #24, Volume 1
Writer: William Moulton Marston
Penciller: Harry G. Peter
Date: December 1943
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http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Sensation_Comics_Vol_1_24
Submission of Supergirl grabbing Superman and slamming him into a tree a page or so back:
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Source: Supergirl #2, Volume 6
Writers: Michael Green & Mike Johnson
Penciller: Mahmud Asrar
Date: December 2011
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http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Supergirl_Vol_6_2
Originally posted by biensalsaSuperman
... withstood the blast of two atomic bombs!
... [could fly into] earth's molten core!
... could fly into the heart of the sun ... !
These feats, so very impressive-sounding, obscure the fact that they are NOT something pure physical strength alone, not even INFINITE physical strength, could help a character get past.
Wonder Woman typically demonstrates superstrength AND vulnerability in the same story.
For instance, that scene with the train which you admitted was a nice feat earlier, has the following as its setup:
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Thanks, Salsa.I'm thinking of several instances now where I seem to remember red sun de-powering happening instantly with Superman and Supergirl, but yours are instances worth considering. Ultimately, as I mentioned before, you're GOING to find inconsistency when you take examination to a certain point, simply because these are works of fiction.
Explanations come after the fact in comic-world not before.At any rate, you wrote the following just a page or two ago ...
I need to remind you: I am arguing Wonder Woman has a relatively pure physical STRENGTH advantage.
I am NOT, and I have said this repeatedly, am NOT arguing that she has an advantage in speed, or toughness, or durability, or heat resistance/invulnerability anything of that sort. She doesn't.
Withstanding atomic bomb blasts is not a measure of strength. Certainly that ability can go along WITH having physical strength and usually does in comics, but they are quite separate. Ditto for being able to withstand the heat of the sun's centre and that sort of thing.
I've explained this, and you agreed with as much before, yet still, even from you, I keep getting examples that try to conflate invulnerability with strength, making absolutely no distinction whatsoever.
Obvious then, since I repeatedly keep getting this response, I need to show cases where Wonder Woman has proven superhuman strength even AS she was vulnerable.
I suppose this would count as part of "basic concepts",
"how powers work" (Wonder Woman is specifically granted great strength from the Greek Pantheon in any given incarnation, among other powers, which do NOT explicitly mention much about invulnerability), and
"character limitations" in at least one interpretation of the phrase,from the list I've been posting for my criteria almost from the first response to P.R.
The Case of Duke Dalgan.
Scan 3 of 3.
Note that, in the space of only 3 pages, Wonder Woman is knocked out TWICE by sleeping gas. (vulnerability)
I recall at least 1 showing where early Superman proved more or less immune to gas, in fact, had fun with a group of criminals who tried to hurt him while he was "knocked out" by gas and found they could not do so. (invulnerability)
Again, Wonder Woman vulnerable, Superman invulnerable.
But the fact still remains that Wonder Woman is superstrong.
Her being vulnerable limits what she can DO to EXPRESS her strength; it does nothing to preclude her actually being stronger than a less vulnerable "tank", however.
Reference information for the "Case of Duke Dalgan" contained in the dotted lines at the end of this post.
I'll mention briefly here that the "masquerador" seen in that first scan a few posts ago, before Diana got gassed by Dalgan, was Wonder Woman's own mother, Hippolyta.
This has significance regarding "how powers work", Wonder Woman's specifically, which I'll soon cover.
This scene also happens to have significance regarding the "popular consensus" that you alluded to before and a VERY strong suggestion that popular consensus if often WRONG, but that it takes careful thought and research to challenge it.
At any rate, I plan to revisit that story, along with what I just mentioned, as soon as my schedule permits.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source: Sensation Comics #26, Volume 1
Writer: William Moulton Marston
Penciller: Harry G. Peter
Date: February 1944
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http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Sensation_Comics_Vol_1_26
Originally posted by biensalsaSuperman
... withstood the blast of two atomic bombs!
... [could fly into] earth's molten core!
... could fly into the heart of the sun ... !
Probably my last submission for the day, the case of "killer" DOGAN (as opposed to Duke DALGAN).
It can be argued that gas was a special attack; warranted to note that even the mundane force of someone hitting Diana with a pistol to the back of the head could knock her out, despite her simultaneously possessing tank-busting, mountain-moving, saving world from planet-cracking menace level strength. Along with a few other powers.
Physical strength is what I'm primarily focusing on, but it is worth noting that she demonstrates great speed in her actions below ...
Paula's mercy: The case of "killer" Dogan. Scan 1 of 3.
Strength is not the same as invulnerability.
Paula's mercy. Scan 3 of 3.
Reference info to follow in my next post.
Note that despite having the speed to beat a hail of bullets already being FIRED from a Tommy Gun BEFORE the bullets have a chance to leave the barrel, (superspeed)
and despite having the strength to apparently fuse the gun barrels together upon so doing, (superstrength)
Wonder Woman is taken out much as any other person would be, by a gunbutt to the back of her head.
(Vulnerability DESPITE superlative strength; hallmark of Wondy through MOST of her career.)
Ref Info for above:
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Source: Wonder Woman #12, Volume 1
Writer: Joyce Murchison
Penciller: Harry G. Peter
Date: Spring 1945
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http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Wonder_Woman_Vol_1_12
"How powers work" is probably the most complicated feature of either character. Wonder Woman's power sources vary over the years; so do Superman's.
Important consideration this one is, though: it suggests what the maximum potential of either character might be.
For Wonder Woman that lists seems to be as follows:
1) Exercise.
2) Will and/or brain power.
3) Pantheon magic.
For Superman:
1) Gravity.
2) Gravity and yellow sunlight.
3) Psionics.
Not until now had I encountered anyone making a case worth a moment's consideration for "Supernatural lineage" for Superman. Interesting, to say the least ...
The case of Superman and gravity is fairly well known, the motif 1st used to explain him during this time.
For Wonder Woman however, it seems to be the case that AT THE START, her power was due to a COMBINATION of factors.
Exercise, will, AND magic. Hard to reconcile; Marston himself seemed unsure of how to explain her; what route he most wanted to pursue. I'll likely be re-examining this one a couple times, because the comics express the case for all 3 sources mentioned above, and which one takes precedence seems to depend on the story needs.
Here's a showing in favor of "exercise" being the primary component of Wonder Woman and/or "Amazon" strength ...
I'll be moving on to later decades before too long, which will be where the competitions asked about by the original poster will naturally appear for fill-in.
But this early period deserves fairly thorough examination.
It's what informs you that Wonder Woman was DESIGNED to match or exceed strength against Superman.
It's what tells you she had strength feats equaling or surpassing his.
It's what informs you of the source of her strength and suggests the level her feats can and did reach (I have found, not having read ALL of Wonder Woman's stories, that it is possible to "predict" what will be seen in the stories that are "gaps" in any particular collection.
I browse the web sometimes to see how similar "Superman v Wonder Woman" discussions proceed. I have no idea why I seldom if ever see anyone actually post Wonder Woman strength feats, even if the discussion centers on the Golden Age. It's really somewhat disconcerting.
At any rate, I promised to show several to establish her performing on Superman level at the outset.
Here's again one I don't recall seeing, though it should be the most natural thing to find in a feat/fight versus/strength thread ...
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Although to some extent I understand this objection, I don't think it's a particularly good one.One, I'm dealing with a size limit for choosing to go with KMC's own image hosting program.
Two, posting the full page wouldn't give any better impression of Superman versus Supergirl.
Think it would? I'll give you the chance to prove it by posting the entirety of the page, as large as KMC will allow (about 240 Kilobytes). In fact, I will make this formal request of you:
Please post the entirety of the page that panel is from.
Then proceed to tell me how this somehow leaves you with a better impression of Superman.
OK, It seems a valid justification to not post a complete scan based on the space needed for KMC.
I believe context is very, very important when debating.
So, lets see what really happened in that DCnU fight of SM vs SG
Supergirl has just arrived earth and she is disoriented, Superman tries to REASON with her.
She is very confused.
She starts with a sucker punch
This is the scan You showed
She cannot control her powers, this freaks her out even more. Superman still tries to talk some sense into her.
Now, pay attention to this one. Superman just had enough of Supergirl's attacks.
She launches onto him and He casually gets rid of her, with one hand
Superman understands how she might feel and still tries to reason with her, she freaks out again.
Supergirl tries to escape
Superman moves faster and she smashes into his chest and falls like a fly, He is still trying to talk to her
Again kryptonian PMS kicks in
She endangers innocents
And Superman says He won't fight her anymore because of the innocent bystanders
So, please now explain me how is she stronger?
Just because He was trying to talk to her?
This is my standard of saying that she is not stronger, when He actually decided to act, she was just competing with someone who seems physically stronger and faster.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Third, you're pretending I'm holding this discussion in a vacuum and not in a thread full of Superman fans.If there's any objections to be made against me, you can be SURE they will be made. There's no such thing as anything going unchallenged here.
It's like arguing a whale will suffocate if beached -- when it's swimming in the middle of the Atlantic.
It's not a realistic objection under the present circumstances, Salsa.
I'm not sure why other people have jump into it, but believe me, I have seen very good debaters for Superman in the vs forums and I believe they just like to stay there, because things move faster in there.
Lets continue
