Superman Vs Wonderwoman

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
The Quintessence scene is meaningless to me, because I'm not arguing power. Pure physical strength is something entirely different than the more nebulous and coverall phrase "most powerful".

I know, this type of statements are usually meaningless, but Zeus is in there and this is the same quinteessence who foressen the war of the superman and judged Superman for the destruction of Imperex prime.

and Like You said We are not really arguing who is the most powerful, but the strongest, and I get that, just sometimes I like to show this type of scan, I'll try to keep focused on physical strength from now on

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
On the OTHER hand ...

I've got to say, I don't know whether it is valid or not, I don't know whether DC actually adheres to what you are saying, and I'm not sure what authors would reject or support your claims above, but what you just outlined there was easily the best pro-Superman post in the entire thread. At least as far as I'm concerned.

Mind you, I've still got a gauntlet for your reasoning to run through before I can honestly accept your premise, but nothing in the first 20 pages of this thread warranted the pause this one just did ...

Kudos.

I have a lot of evidence to prove and support this point if you want to see it.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
No, people are very definitely following this thread, Salsa.

I began posting roughly 1 month ago, March 28th, 2012, in this thread. The view count then was 4,000+.
Perhaps it was as high as 4,900.
That was after 2 years of the original poster starting the thread.
In less than 6 weeks, the view count has risen to more than 9,000.

People are definitely following the thread.

They probably have nothing better to do than reading what a pair of nerds have to say 😄

Originally posted by bluewaterrider

You? You, by contrast, have been stellar.
Overall I consider your way a model of how forum talk should be held.
Your points are consistent, you take the time to listen, you respond in general with good reasoning and comic evidence to back up your points. When you've had disagreements with me, you've been courteous and civil. It has genuinely been a pleasure discussing things with you.
I hope we continue to have the opportunity to do so.

Thanks for the compliment, you have to remember that a lot of poster are usually arguing vs a lot of people, so, sometimes We get a little bit unfriendly when debating, It happened to me too. So is just part of the game.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I appreciate always anyone taking time and effort like this, but, before proceeding any further, I must tell you that the immediate objection that came to mind, that still comes to mind, when you mention "descendent of Rao" as something that sets Superman apart from other Kryptonians, is that SUPERGIRL IS ALSO A DESCENDENT OF RAO.

If lineage is what makes Superman special among Kryptonians, that would apply to Kara Zor-el as well.

And, as you well know, many, if not most, comics narrate or portray Diana as superior to Kara in strength.

I believe it does set Superman apart from other kryptonians with some writers, some other writers might ignore those issues, some don't.

But there is evidence of his lineage in comics and cyntonia confirmed a physical resamblance to Rao.

Now, as far as Kara, Well she is not also regular teenager female kryptonian.

IIRC Superman survived Kryptonite attacks where other kryptonian died and 5 kryptonians were needed to restrain him.

And just think about Kara compared to Diana.

Diana is a full grown athlete woman Kara is a teenager girl.

I believe Diana may be stronger, but then again some evidence point as Kara being stronger. If I believe Diana is stronger than Kara is by DC hierarchy and feats.

But still Kara is a teen, Diana is a Woman and she knew Kara needed to be trained, because she didn't want a powerful teenager running around with those powers with out supervision, So Wonder Woman knows what was best for her too.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
One other thing I feel the need to mention, though I'm not sure it really affects what you're saying either way (I have not yet looked at the Amalak links you provided),
is that in the 2nd scan you're showing above of Blackstarr, Superman is actually saying "Whoa, THAT's weird" because it is actually KARA's conscious that has been beamed into him!

I'll track down the issue number and other information for you, but that is part of a story that involved the Legion of Super-Heroes, and, believe it or not, PART of Supergirl that was trapped in the 23rd century! So I'm not sure it illustrates what you think it does.

One tangental aside, I AM studying the subscripts on these links as they appear in the quote boxes as I type this to you.
Very impressed with the way you and others are able to put multiple scans into one post. I managed to do that once before; think I used Photobucket to do it (once or twice in my pre-Crisis Supergirl thread), long forgotten since then how I managed that trick ...

You are correct Supergirl helped, but You have to see the power level of black star, her powers were even affecting the temporal particles all the way to the 31st century and Superman is taking the full brunt of the attack, Supergirl fell down before him, meaning that he resisted the drain as explained his power is connected to his stress. This woman was affecting 1000 years with her draining powers, pretty good showing if you ask me.

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/POWER%20DISPLAY%20VS%20DRAIN/1000yearsfeedback.jpg

and you should use photobucket it will help you a lot

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Thanks, Salsa.

I'm thinking of several instances now where I seem to remember red sun de-powering happening instantly with Superman and Supergirl, but yours are instances worth considering. Ultimately, as I mentioned before, you're GOING to find inconsistency when you take examination to a certain point, simply because these are works of fiction.
Explanations come after the fact in comic-world not before.

At any rate, you wrote the following just a page or two ago ...

I need to remind you: I am arguing Wonder Woman has a relatively pure physical STRENGTH advantage.

I am NOT, and I have said this repeatedly, am NOT arguing that she has an advantage in speed, or toughness, or durability, or heat resistance/invulnerability anything of that sort. She doesn't.

Withstanding atomic bomb blasts is not a measure of strength. Certainly that ability can go along WITH having physical strength and usually does in comics, but they are quite separate. Ditto for being able to withstand the heat of the sun's centre and that sort of thing.

I've explained this, and you agreed with as much before, yet still, even from you, I keep getting examples that try to conflate invulnerability with strength, making absolutely no distinction whatsoever.

Obvious then, since I repeatedly keep getting this response, I need to show cases where Wonder Woman has proven superhuman strength even AS she was vulnerable.

I suppose this would count as part of "basic concepts",
"how powers work" (Wonder Woman is specifically granted great strength from the Greek Pantheon in any given incarnation, among other powers, which do NOT explicitly mention much about invulnerability), and
"character limitations" in at least one interpretation of the phrase,

from the list I've been posting for my criteria almost from the first response to P.R.

I understand you are arguing strength, however I posted that because I did not had my hard drive available to show actual examples.

I thought being inside the suns core will require a lot of strength to move around.

The other examples were just tagging along, but I was aiming for gravity at the suns core.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Strength is not the same as invulnerability.

Paula's mercy. Scan 3 of 3.

Reference info to follow in my next post.

Note that despite having the speed to beat a hail of bullets already being FIRED from a Tommy Gun BEFORE the bullets have a chance to leave the barrel, (superspeed)
and despite having the strength to apparently fuse the gun barrels together upon so doing, (superstrength)
Wonder Woman is taken out much as any other person would be, by a gunbutt to the back of her head.

(Vulnerability DESPITE superlative strength; hallmark of Wondy through MOST of her career.)

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Strength is NOT the same as invulnerability!

Paula's mercy. Scan 2 of 2.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Probably my last submission for the day, the case of "killer" DOGAN (as opposed to Duke DALGAN).

It can be argued that gas was a special attack; warranted to note that even the mundane force of someone hitting Diana with a pistol to the back of the head could knock her out, despite her simultaneously possessing tank-busting, mountain-moving, saving world from planet-cracking menace level strength. Along with a few other powers.
Physical strength is what I'm primarily focusing on, but it is worth noting that she demonstrates great speed in her actions below ...

Paula's mercy: The case of "killer" Dogan. Scan 1 of 3.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Reference information for the "Case of Duke Dalgan" contained in the dotted lines at the end of this post.

I'll mention briefly here that the "masquerador" seen in that first scan a few posts ago, before Diana got gassed by Dalgan, was Wonder Woman's own mother, Hippolyta.

This has significance regarding "how powers work", Wonder Woman's specifically, which I'll soon cover.

This scene also happens to have significance regarding the "popular consensus" that you alluded to before and a VERY strong suggestion that popular consensus if often WRONG, but that it takes careful thought and research to challenge it.

At any rate, I plan to revisit that story, along with what I just mentioned, as soon as my schedule permits.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source: Sensation Comics #26, Volume 1
Writer: William Moulton Marston
Penciller: Harry G. Peter
Date: February 1944
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Sensation_Comics_Vol_1_26

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
The Case of Duke Dalgan.

Scan 3 of 3.

Note that, in the space of only 3 pages, Wonder Woman is knocked out TWICE by sleeping gas. (vulnerability)

I recall at least 1 showing where early Superman proved more or less immune to gas, in fact, had fun with a group of criminals who tried to hurt him while he was "knocked out" by gas and found they could not do so. (invulnerability)

Again, Wonder Woman vulnerable, Superman invulnerable.
But the fact still remains that Wonder Woman is superstrong.

Her being vulnerable limits what she can DO to EXPRESS her strength; it does nothing to preclude her actually being stronger than a less vulnerable "tank", however.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
The Case of Duke Dalgan.

Scan 2 of 3.

(masquerador, gun gas, amnesia, gas gun again ...)

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
These feats, so very impressive-sounding, obscure the fact that they are NOT something pure physical strength alone, not even INFINITE physical strength, could help a character get past.

Wonder Woman typically demonstrates superstrength AND vulnerability in the same story.

For instance, that scene with the train which you admitted was a nice feat earlier, has the following as its setup:

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
This first submission should be fairly clear.

Wonder Woman succumbs to gas. She is strong; she is still vulnerable. After being knocked out by gas, she comes to, and, finding herself chained to a wall with Trevor and tons of stone collapsing on her, she breaks the chains holding her, supports the tons of weight above her long enough to get both of them free, and immediately proceeds to battle the Japanese army.

Strength, even superstrength, is NOT invulnerability.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
So, again, finding it necessary to remind people that there is a difference between strength and invulnerability, some instances of Wonder Woman showing superstrength even AS she demonstrates vulnerability ...

I got all this and I know the difference, like I said on previous post I was aiming for being inside the suns core as needing physical strength.

All this showings kind of reminded me of the Hulk, being really strong but vulnerable to gas attacks.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
"How powers work" is probably the most complicated feature of either character. Wonder Woman's power sources vary over the years; so do Superman's.

Important consideration this one is, though: it suggests what the maximum potential of either character might be.

For Wonder Woman that lists seems to be as follows:

1) Exercise.
2) Will and/or brain power.
3) Pantheon magic.

For Superman:

1) Gravity.
2) Gravity and yellow sunlight.
3) Psionics.

Not until now had I encountered anyone making a case worth a moment's consideration for "Supernatural lineage" for Superman. Interesting, to say the least ...

The case of Superman and gravity is fairly well known, the motif 1st used to explain him during this time.

For Wonder Woman however, it seems to be the case that AT THE START, her power was due to a COMBINATION of factors.
Exercise, will, AND magic. Hard to reconcile; Marston himself seemed unsure of how to explain her; what route he most wanted to pursue. I'll likely be re-examining this one a couple times, because the comics express the case for all 3 sources mentioned above, and which one takes precedence seems to depend on the story needs.

Here's a showing in favor of "exercise" being the primary component of Wonder Woman and/or "Amazon" strength ...

For every era, the source and how the powers work will change.

For now, Here is the explanation for Superman's powers on that era. This is the original idea from the comics

"Upon reaching maturity, the people of his race became gifted with titanic strength"

AC #1

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Tip tub. Scan 2 of 2.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I'll be moving on to later decades before too long, which will be where the competitions asked about by the original poster will naturally appear for fill-in.

But this early period deserves fairly thorough examination.

It's what informs you that Wonder Woman was DESIGNED to match or exceed strength against Superman.
It's what tells you she had strength feats equaling or surpassing his.
It's what informs you of the source of her strength and suggests the level her feats can and did reach (I have found, not having read ALL of Wonder Woman's stories, that it is possible to "predict" what will be seen in the stories that are "gaps" in any particular collection.

I browse the web sometimes to see how similar "Superman v Wonder Woman" discussions proceed. I have no idea why I seldom if ever see anyone actually post Wonder Woman strength feats, even if the discussion centers on the Golden Age. It's really somewhat disconcerting.

At any rate, I promised to show several to establish her performing on Superman level at the outset.
Here's again one I don't recall seeing, though it should be the most natural thing to find in a feat/fight versus/strength thread ...

So far I have a few from that era Action Comics 91

"The average Ocean freighter is a toy compared to these floating warehouses"

,

Swims at great speeds while carrying a mansion AC #40

Creates a Diamond AC 115

Contains an atomic blast with his bare hands and makes the explosion harmless SM#38

Lifts a castle AC#112

Lifts a city AC#113

Squeezes rock into glass or glass out of rock (trying to make sense out of this one) SM #64

Salsa, I want to produce, but I'm feeling extraordinarily lazy.
At least right now. It's been a long day.

Brief note on that context and justification post of yours.
Biggest reason to ration imagery is to stay within defendable "Fair Use" guidelines. Delight though it is, not a good idea to break that habit.
Not the case that we two are merely friends showing each other favorite scenes from older comics that the other knew nothing of.
No matter our intentions, the nature of Internet posting transforms this into something that needs to be guarded carefully. For the most extreme but clearest example of what can happen when this habit is violated overmuch, look up "Gregory Steven Hart".

Curious as to what happens if you include an image uploaded through KMC's own IHP as a link.

Only one way to find out ...

Incidentally "TipTub" here is a scene from Wonder Woman #6, Volume 1...

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13833374

So ... that seems to have worked.

Now I'm curious if posting KMC images as links can be done the way you've done them with photobucket. That would be pretty cool.

I might test that out tonight.

But I've got a lot I want to put up here.
That "origin of power" motif was my current concern for instance ...

As mentioned before, mere physical exercise was one of Moulton's sources of Amazon strength. Wonder Woman #6 concerns itself with this topic rather extensively ...

It should easily be seen that Moulton DID, to whatever extent, genuinely hold the idea that his publication should inpire young women to better themselves ...

... even so, it is probably equally apparent that Moulton and his creative staff had a way of portraying things in a way that, possibly, possibly, limited the full acceptance of this character ...

Originally posted by biensalsa
All th[ese] showings ... reminded me of the Hulk ... really strong but vulnerable to gas attacks.

You started off with Marvel Comics, too, hey?

I know what you mean ... even though Wonder Woman preceded that guy.
I got a VERY similar feeling seeing the following, Wonder Woman #5, Volume 1 ...

... which resonates un-mistake-ably for anyone who read the first Spider-man and Doctor Octopus engagement ...

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source: Wonder Woman #5, Volume 1
Writer: William Moulton Marston
Penciller: Harry G. Peter
Date: July 1943
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Wonder_Woman_Vol_1_5

Now compare the Spidey slingshot in ASM3 ...

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source: Amazing Spider-Man #3, Volume 1
Writer: Stan Lee
Penciller: Steve Ditko
Date: July 1963
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://marvel.wikia.com/Amazing_Spider-Man_Vol_1_3

It's ... possible ... that the Lee/Ditko team borrowed from Marston's earlier work.

Originally posted by biensalsa
[L]ets see what really happened in ... SM vs SG ...

Not so much in the mood for H.Peter artwork tonight, and, I eventually DO want to have this particular discussion, so, as long as I'm touching on "things X reminds me of" I'll post the following image, which was intended to be the original cover to Supergirl #5.

Noteworthy to me, something I cannot forget, in fact, is that Loeb's arc was SUPPOSED to end with Supergirl #6, NOT Supergirl #5.
The abrupt change in tone, along with the miscues and other writers' comments in surrounding books, lead me to believe that Loeb did not intend his "Power" arc to end that way.

What strikes me most NOW about this picture, however, is that it nearly exactly mirrors what we see in the present DCnU Superman #6.

"House of Ideas", indeed ...

Loeb's intent when writing Superman was to make him the most powerful hero in DC. He's said so in interviews. Casey was the same, too.

Timing matters here, P.R.

WHEN did Jeph Loeb say this?

For instance, I have once recorded an interview, hopefully I still have it, where Mark Waid said he liked the idea of Superman, and free from all the Silver Age trappings, if I'm not mistaken.

This was around the time of Birthright, 2003.

But there was no Supergirl around when Waid said that.

I had full confidence that if Waid ever got the chance to write Supergirl, he'd give considerable respect to the lady. For he was also the same Mark Waid that wrote that he believed that DC was working too hard to protect their "crown jewel" characters. And that it was making for lousy stories. He was also the same Mark Waid that expressed admiration for the work of the author that wrote the "Science of Superheroes", and said frankly that he was considering that writer's input as something better than what he intended for his Legion of Super-Heroes series, and whether he should in fact change what he was going to submit.

Mark Waid 2003 did not accurately predict Mark Waid 2005 and 2006.

Without knowing more, an assertion that Loeb said something of this sort way back when wouldn't mean much.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Timing matters here, P.R.

WHEN did Jeph Loeb say this?

For instance, I have once recorded an interview, hopefully I still have it, where Mark Waid said he liked the idea of Superman, and free from all the Silver Age trappings, if I'm not mistaken.

This was around the time of Birthright, 2003.

But there was no Supergirl around when Waid said that.

I had full confidence that if Waid ever got the chance to write Supergirl, he'd give considerable respect to the lady. For he was also the same Mark Waid that wrote that he believed that DC was working too hard to protect their "crown jewel" characters. And that it was making for lousy stories. He was also the same Mark Waid that expressed admiration for the work of the author that wrote the "Science of Superheroes", and said frankly that he was considering that writer's input as something better than what he intended for his Legion of Super-Heroes series, and whether he should in fact change what he was going to submit.

Mark Waid 2003 did not accurately predict Mark Waid 2005 and 2006.

Without knowing more, an assertion that Loeb said something of this sort way back when wouldn't mean much.

The most recent one I can think of is 2011. Don't remember when Casey said it last.

Also, Mark Waid has been dying to write Superman regularly for years; DC just won't let him.

There's also the fact that in almost every direct confrontation between the two, Superman has been shown to be her superior. I really don't think you can make much of a case for her being more powerful, tbh.