Desaad was (at least) once Darkseid.
Scan 3 of 3.
Relevance: As mentioned on the previous page, if Superman was actually fighting Desaad who was merely impersonating Darkseid,
or fighting an AVATAR of Darkseid, and not Darkseid himself, then, in 2004, when SB13 took place, Superman had not actually endured Darkseid's Omega Beams to that point.
Because Superman had not actually fought Darkseid.
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" ... (New Gods III #15) - Darkseid resurrected Desaad, and promised it was the last time he would do so. Desaad started impersonating Darkseid and engaging various metahumans on Earth, including Superman, Hawkman and Dr. Fate. Darkseid chastised him, and reminded Desaad that as hard as he tried he could never be like Darkseid. Darkseid punished him be destroying his emotion detector, but Desaad had a miniaturized version hidden away..."
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http://www.angelfire.com/ar/hellUSA/Desaad.html
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Source: New Gods #15, Volume 3
Writer: Mark Evanier & Paris Cullins
Penciller: Paris Cullins
Date: April 1990
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http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/New_Gods_Vol_3_15
Ref Info for Cassie Wonder Girl's heat vision deflection and Deathstroke's handling a more powerful group of several members simulataneouly:
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Source: Teen Titans #46, Volume 3
Writer: Adam Beechens & Geoff Johns
Penciller: Al Barrionuevo
Date: June 2007
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http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Teen_Titans_Vol_3_46
Originally posted by -Pr-
Superman had fought Darkseid several times in the late 90s and early 00s, even a couple of times during Our Worlds at War and of course, more recently in Superman Confidential, Countdown and of course, Apokolips Now.And it was the actual Darkseid.
1990s early AND late is exactly when you start seeing Desaad impersonations AND Darkseid Avatars. How exactly can you be sure you've got true Darkseid after the intro of both of those concepts?
I got it covered either way, though, P.R.
If you want to say SB13 featured "real Darkseid" then Diana's contribution to that effort needs acknowledging:
Scan 1 of 10
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
1990s early AND late is exactly when you start seeing Desaad impersonations AND Darkseid Avatars. How exactly can you be sure you've got true Darkseid after the intro of both of those concepts?I got it covered either way, though, P.R.
If you want to say SB13 featured "real Darkseid" then Diana's contribution to that effort needs acknowledging:
Scan 1 of 10
Not the early 90s. The late 90s, and the early 00s. Which were definitely Darkseid.
Fortunately, though, he is.
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Source: Action Comics #586, Volume 1
Writer/Penciller: John Byrne
Inker: Dick Giordano
Date: March 1987
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http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Action_Comics_Vol_1_586
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I daresay I've brought more accurate information relevant to this thread and what the original poster actually ASKED people in his opening posts that any other person participating, including Salsa and P.R.You wouldn't say that, because, in debate mode, you're not inclined to give credit to me for any positive thing done.
I said your argument against Superman restraining her before the SACRIFICE fight was more convincing than your attempt to dismiss the rape-choke, didn't I? By the way, still waiting for you to just admit it's solid proof he's MUCH stronger. You ignoring that the choke defense technique is exactly what we see her attempting, and failing, doesn't mean it's not an example of much greater strength.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Then again, I'm not sure you've even read the BEGINNING pages of this thread, much less where the more inclusive historical fight list is posted.Certainly there was a lot you were missing when you began posting here. I'd bet you still are.
Yes, I have read at the beginning. The OP doesn't change the fact that you turned it into your crusade to prove Wonder Woman's stronger than Superman despite no evidence.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
By the way, if you DO think there are a few fights missing, you should post them. That is precisely what this thread was and still is ultimately concerned with.
I'd have to go through to see, but I know there were examples you were missing, as they had popped into my head as I looked through your list and updated list. Also, I believe you include the Superwoman fight for the Pre-CRISIS examples. If that actually counts, then you certainly forgot Superman owning her, Ultraman and Owlman in TRINITY.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I'll eventually go back and experiment with my Photobucket account, Delta. If for no other reason than that I said I would.
I would point out, though, same as I did to Salsa ...Well, send Salsa a private message and he can explain to you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUUmiemPZQM
--make a Photobucket. I begged!! Or at least posted someone else's begging.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
You've made a good case, but I'd be lying if I typed anything other than that I STILL think Omega Beams mean instant death to Superman ...
I guess you like to think wrong things, then.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
IF Darkseid really is Darkseid
and IF Darkseid really does intend to take Superman out
and IF Darkseid is at normal power levels.
So, in other words, you want it to be an Insta-Kill against Superman. Even though we have Darkseid intending to kill Superman and not even causing significant harm. Even if Darkseid was weakened, if fully powered it'd be an Insta-Kill, weakened it would be incapacitating. Yet, we don't see that. And I see that only NOW after being proven wrong do you bring-up all this criteria to still say, "Ya huh, it's an Insta-Kill!!" In fact, you showed complete surprise that he took the Omega Beams on multiple occasions, back on the DC boards.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
But, as you've pointed out yourself, "Darkseid" is often an imposter,
No, I didn't. I pointed-out that the only example I'm aware of Superman fighting Darkseid under Byrne, that it was apparently Dessad posing as Darkseid, that either it was revealed to be Dessad or later retconned to be Dessad. I'm sorry if I didn't clarify, this is what I've heard, I didn't actually see it myself. But I don't know of any other examples of it being someone else pretending to be Darkseid. Not saying they don't exist, I just don't know of them.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
--he DOESN'T normally really want Superman killed,
and he often ISN'T at normal power levels by the time he is in true killing mode with a clear shot.
So? Like I pointed-out, Darkseid intended to kill Superman, and used the Omega Beams. Even weakened, if they were the Insta-Kill you think they are fully powered, they'd still be incapacitating even when he's weakened.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Delta, the problem is that you've left the following unanswered, none of which squares with your stated position:
You're not one to say I've left something unanswered. Or were you hoping I'd forget about the whole, "If Superman(and Orion) isn't just on another level of strength compared to Wonder Woman, then what is it? Was it Orion was amped too, or Superman's amp didn't kick-in until AFTER the fight with Orion?" Amongst other things. But I'll answer you, even though you haven't answered me.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
If the Omega Beams are NOT a sure kill when ALL of the above conditions are met... why does Darkseid HIMSELF seem to think he killed Kara, and speak as if he did?
Arrogance, ignorance, or both. If fully powered they were an Insta-Kill, he would've been shocked that Superman could withstand them even weakened when he tried to kill Superman.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
... why does Wonder Woman think it necessary to shield Clark with her bracers to begin with?
Ignorance or overreacting on her part. Superman clearly felt no need to be shielded in it, as I pointed-out his reaction.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
... why does Superman deem it necessary to take Darkseid to the SUN to battle, where nearly every other menace, even the highest-level ones, he is content to battle on Earth?
Like I said in a previous post, probably to teach Darkseid a lesson. This is only one of three times I've seen Superman take an opponent to the Sun. Out of the other two, one you know was in SACRIFICE, and he wanted to make Doomsday suffer before killing. The other was against Cythonna(sp?), who was uber-powerful. Superman compared her back-handed slap to being hit by a Pocketverse Kryptonian, which were more powerful than him. If you're trying to argue Superman was afraid of the Omega Beams, taking Darkseid to the Sun isn't a good argument. Superman's out-raced and out-maneuvered(sp?) them before. More than once. Including during the Byrne era, in fact.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Where else do you see Superman taking such a drastic step to deal with a threat? Why would he feel such an extreme action necessary?
Like I said above, aside from revenge, the only time I've seen him do this was when someone was too physically powerful for him. He's out-paced the Omega Beams at least three times before that I can think of by the time this issue was published, so amping to endure them is very likely NOT the case. He's shown to be a rough match for Darkseid, even the Byrne-era he hurt Darkseid hand-to-hand(far as I know), and has even decisively beaten Darkseid down. If he were worried about the Omega Beams, just fly around to manipulate Darkseid into being hit by them(something he's done more than once) then speedblitz Darksied for the beat-down.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
The ref info for the encounter I'm asking about, by the way, where Darkseid is weakened by his own Omega attack, is the following:------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source: Action Comics #586, Volume 1
Writer/Penciller: John Byrne
Inker: Dick Giordano
Date: March 1987
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http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Action_Comics_Vol_1_586
I got this from a trade paperback that includes this issue, but doesn't tell which comic is which, and I'm reasonably, but not 100%, sure that this is the fight you're referring to.
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Superman%20VS%20Darkseid/AC%20586/
So, no. Darkseid does say Superman hurt him when he gets hit with his own Omega Beams, but clearly isn't defeated. He gets back-up within a couple panels and attacks Superman again, with a new attack. Oh, and you can see here he was so sure that this attack would incapacitate Superman to the point he'd beg for death. Also, I didn't read the entire issue so I dunno if there was something before-hand, but in the scans I showed, which go through to the end, there isn't anything indicating that Darkseid is being impersonated by Dessad. So, either I missed something at the beginning or a previous issue of the storyline, there was a following issue that revealed it, or it was retconned. Or, I could be mixing this up with some other example I read mentioned. I'm really unsure.
About all the Avatar stuff, I never saw any mention of Darkseid being stuck in The Source Wall or having Avatars do his fighting in the early first year or so of ORION, which started publication in mid-2000. So thus, this would mean that it was the real Darkseid AT LEAST in the OUR WORLDS AT WAR and APOKOLIPS NOW fights.
For the heat vision examples, doesn't really counter Superman doing a heat vision speedblitz.