Delta1938
True King of House of El
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
This is one instance of what I mean by crap arguments being thrown around here.
It's not a "crap argument" at all. It's a legitimate point. You keep arguing that Superman was amped, yet there was no noticeable improvement in his performance that wouldn't be explained by the permanent power-up.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I'd be less concerned if I thought you were doing this on purpose instead of really not knowing that these are fallacies you're trying to use in place of valid arguments and reasoning."You're not one to say I've left something unanswered", presumably a veiled, "You're a hypocrite, Blue" is a fallacy.
Unless you're just doing it to do it.
Maybe you are, maybe this is standard for you and others, intentional, and an instance of why you'd call me "naive".
If you DON'T understand what you're doing, though, click and read the following:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque
Actually, it's to highlight the fact that you've still danced around something you don't like.....not an argument it's self. Oh, and the calling you naive? Actually, I had said, to paraphrase, "you're either naive, or you're new to the Internet."
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Besides being a formal fallacy, and not an argument, IF that is indeed your primary concern, all these instances from you of "You're not one to say" denies reality. I'm essentially the ONLY one present in this thread on the pro-Wonder Woman side. Anything [B]I don't say won't be said. I don't know the history, so I won't speculate, but I noticed that P.R. apparently even blocked one of the pro-Wonder Woman people that did venture here and begin taking Diana's side.[/B]
I looked through about a dozen pages, and although I just skimmed through(of course, only needed to pay attention to almost everybody who wasn't you), the only example I saw remotely resembling that was Carver9. If that's the case, no, Pr didn't block him. Everybody picks on Carver, even the mods. In good fun, though. That was just Pr messing with Carver. I don't even know if the mods can block specific people from posting in specific threads. All I'm aware of they can do is either ban individuals, or lock the entire thread. I figure Carver just wasn't that interested. Assuming that is who you were referring to.
Also, I should note why you're the only one on the pro-Wonder Woman side. There's a very good reason for this. You're wrong.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
But by far the most confusing thing is that you claim I haven't answered you on this Orion question. I have. And my posts the past day or so were yet another answer to that question. You make comments that seem to recognize that fact even as you make this false claim.It is as yet unclear to me what basis you have for your statements.
You dance around the fact. Superman showed no improved performance against Orion in MOT #13 compared to ACTION COMICS #586 that can't be explained from a permanent power-up he had. Yet, you ignore this. And all the excuses you used in an attempt to justify this have been proven false. So, if Superman really was amped instead of Superman(and Orion) simply being on another level of strength than Wonder Woman, either Orion had to be amped too, or for some reason Superman's amp doesn't kick-in until after the fight with Orion. Something you dance around.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
You apparently believe Orion is stronger than Wonder Woman, for instance. Why? Because he can take a better punch?
Is that how you're defining strength? If not, what is?
I know Orion is stronger than Wonder Woman. Not because he can take a punch better, but, oh, his more impressive performances against common opponents, mainly Superman.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Nor does it make sense to me that you're asking why Superman didn't destroy Orion in MOT13. Part of that is I don't understand what you actually have in mind when you say "destroy". Do you mean literally kill? That doesn't seem to have been Superman's goal in MOT13, mind control or no, temporarily insane or no.
No, I didn't mean kill Orion. Why would you think I'd use "destroy" in a literal sense? Like when someone says, "Junior dos Santos owned Cain Velasquez." JDS doesn't literally own Cain as property, but he did KTFO Cain pretty early, and decisively, in their title fight back in November.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Apparently, killing WAS the intention in that Apokolips showing you gave earlier, however. That would imply a decision on Superman's part to use significantly less force in the MOT13 encounter, whether Superman had more potentially lethal force to employ or not. With completely different motivation, why would I assume Orion would fare so much worse in the 2nd encounter, when only the FIRST encounter had Superman playing for keeps and Orion had more help in MOT13 than the Byrne showing?
OK, I guess I will have to go through this thoroughly. When Superman and Orion fought in the Byrne era, you could argue Orion being stronger, but they were pretty close. Superman, since then, has had an official power-up. When he first came back from the dead, he was vastly weaker, I think he said he had about 1/10th of his normal strength. He couldn't fly, his durability was much less, no heat vision, senses were weak. In fact, he had to actually use guns. The first 7 pages here are just various examples of Superman being significantly weaker.
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/De-Then-Re-Powered/
The last 6, however, are from when he got not only repowered, but powered-up. Now, in SUPERMAN: THE MAN OF STEEL #30, they make various references to him being more powerful than normal. Superman keeps noticing he's gotten stronger, or that he can do things now he wasn't aware like he doesn't need to breathe. Lobo also shows surprise about Superman's punch being harder than he remembers, and asks if Superman's been working out. See here.
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/VS%20Lobo/MOS%2030/
Therefore, at worst for Superman, he's been boosted to match Orion, at best, he's become stronger. Now, like I said a while back, if we're to assume that Wonder Woman, Martian Manhunter, and Big Barda have from 80%-90% of Superman's strength, considering they have the leverage advantage and help, Superman would have to have at least a 5 time boost to show he's stronger than all of them combined. 'Cuz, remember, they have the leverage advantage, and they're still struggling, so he's stronger than them all combined here.
(TO BE CONTINUED)
