Superman Vs Wonderwoman

Worth pointing out, Delta, no matter how strong MOT13Superman was or was not after his power-up suncharge, he did not actually break free from Wonder Woman's group.

There was the concern he would, and Kyle syntesized kryptonite after Wonder Woman said this (and yes there were certainly others there in the full scene and the rest of the page), but Superman did not actually get free himself -- his robots came blasting away to his rescue.

Don't know if that affects your math or not, but, again, it's worth pointing out, even as the numerous trips to the sun that Superman took preceding this scene are.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
There are actually several reasons, and, having had some experience on other message boards, I know what many of them are.

One is that, for whatever reason, forums are set up for "groupthink" discussions. Dissenting opinions are treated as affronts.

The problem here is you're arguing an unsubstantiated opinion. Most of the points you've presented aren't accepted as evidence.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
A second is that people are remarkably un-informed about a lot of subject matter you might otherwise THINK they would know when they participate in discussions of this sort.

I've asked it before. Where are the examples? You say you don't have a lot of time, but you spend more time trying to gather evidence to refute peoples' examples than you actually spend providing your own examples. If you're actually correct that Wonder Woman is stronger, your lacking examples can't be because it's "unfair" that Superman has more appearances. If the proof exists, you should be able to provide clear and decisive examples. I can prove that Gladiator is stronger than Batman despite Batman's far greater number of appearances, giving him way more feats and fights to choose from. You might consider that an extreme example, but it perfectly illustrates my point.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
A third is that people do not actually read or pay attention to what the people they're responding to actually post.

I've caught even P.R. on this last once or twice.

Actually, to return to the first for a moment, the hostility and language tricks used remind me of the following. Note that the entire clip below is about 12 minutes.
Only the first 2 minutes are what I'm thinking of, so DON'T bother with anything after that.
Again, only the FIRST 2 minutes should be viewed, so don't be boring and predictable and claim to watch the whole 12 minute affair when you're being expressly asked to watch only the first 120 seconds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmEE61iVhCA
Bill Whittle on Palin Haters

ummmmm Why did you tell me not to be "boring and predictable" and "claim to watch the whole 12 minute affair?" What exactly was the point there?

But, are you trying to argue that all I have is accusations to try and discredit you? That would be incorrect. Who's the one who's actually posted evidence? Me, not you. I don't need to make false accusations to try and discredit you. All I need to do to discredit you is point-out the things you've actually said. For example, you try to make it like it's evidence that Diana is stronger because in AOS #642, he was unable to break her choking him, and he had to resort to damaging the Watchtower. Yet, he's thinking he's fighting Ruin and is completely unaware of what's actually going on. He wasn't even aware Diana was there until she directly engaged him physically, even when she was literally right in front of him. She also was choking him with indestructible garrote.

If you don't know what garrote is--

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garrote

Here's the scene.

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Nearly%20Kills%20Batman/?action=view&current=P00007.jpg

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Nearly%20Kills%20Batman/?action=view&current=P00008.jpg

Not exactly the best argument. Or the "Knee Before Lord" argument you made in regards to WONDER WOMAN #219? Yeah, that's a decent argument. If you ignore what happened in ADVENTURES OF SUPERMAN #642. Here's the full scene from the two comics.

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Strength/Overpowers%20Diana/

You look at the first page when he starts restraining her, she's clearly making an effort not to be overpowered. All your explanation does is explain why she isn't trying to escape, not how she was in the first place. And perhaps she didn't try to escape, because she knew it was futile? That she couldn't overpower him?

I'll jump back a little, to where you claim he waited for her to leave before engaging the JLA, that it's evidence that she's stronger. No, it's not. I pointed-out that she was taking the critically injured Batman for medical attention.

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Superman%20VS%20Teams/AOS%20642/?action=view&current=P00014.jpg

And she was. But if you pay attention to the narration boxes, you'll note Superman thinks about the question nobody brought-up, that if he's being controlled, then they could be controlled as well. And he comes to believe this at the end. As the last narration box up there, and the first in the following show.

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Superman%20VS%20Teams/AOS%20642/?action=view&current=P00015.jpg

So, no, you cannot use this as evidence that Wonder Woman is stronger, unless you lie. I proved it was not fear or concern for her strength. And another example? Your comparison of the Omacs. I don't think I've seen you post Wonder Woman dealing with the Omacs, but I have seen Fangirl101(banned here, but seen her post on a site I used to frequent when it was up) post an example of Wonder Woman VS Omacs, that she claims is proof that Diana's stronger than Supergirl. Maybe Diana is stronger, but it sure as Hell isn't from the example Fangirl posts. All that happens is 4 or so pile on top of Diana. But, they don't actually grab her to try to restrain her. So, her throwing them off is really just throwing the weight of the Omacs off her, not overpowering them. Batman has better feats than that.

You made reference about Supergirl not doing well against them, if I recall correctly(I KNOW you brought her up and compared her to Superman, since you think she's stronger than him), and Fangirl posts just the part where Kara's being restrained. Here's the full thing.

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/VS%20Omacs/Supergirl/

Note that the last two panels on the first page, she's being restrained by two actually grabbing her arms. It's hard to tell, but the next panel looks like she's freed herself. She most certainly has freed herself by the next page.

And while I don't know where the example you gave of Superman "doing poorly" against the Omacs are from, I only saw one panel. Where he was being attacked, and we don't even know what the circumstances were. Not exactly a good argument, especially since A: you've repeatedly argued that durability isn't strength, and B: to my knowledge you hadn't actually shown Wonder Woman facing Omacs. Here's how Superman did against an Omac when he thought they were just machines, unaware there were people inside them.

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/VS%20Omacs/AOS%20643/

It's not much of a fight when he grabs a hold of one, is it? No, no it's not. He relatively casually one-shots one, nearly killing the person inside it. I wouldn't be surprised at all if Superman's "poor performance" you showed a single panel of was due to fear of harming the innocents in them, instead of actually not being strong enough to deal with them.

These examples are a lot more harmful than anything I could "make up." Either you're being misleading with them, or your bias has really clouded your judgment.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
It says that Superman was hurt by Darkseid's POST-Omega-Force-spent energy attack BECAUSE it was attuned to his precise molecular structure.

Darkseid says that right in those pictures.

Exactly what about that scene are you having such a difficult time understanding?

Nothing. I just assumed you'd get the point. Here's the thing. You sure give the appearance that you're arguing Superman beat-up Darksied in that encounter, because Darkseid was hurt by the Omega Beams. Well, Superman was being hurt by Darkseid's energy attacked attuned to his molecular structure. But, Darkseid didn't just blast him and be done with it. He only stopped attacking because Superman punched him in the face.

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Superman%20VS%20Darkseid/AC%20586/?action=view&current=smos-204.jpg

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Superman%20VS%20Darkseid/AC%20586/?action=view&current=smos-205.jpg

If you check the top panel of the second page, you see Darkseid's actually still firing the energy beams, just not at Superman anymore. 'Cuz he was hit in the face. So, Superman started the beat-down even while he was taking punishment. So, by your argument, Superman was still being weakened when he started his beat-down. Why didn't you catch that?

(TO BE CONTINUED)

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
The formal name for it is "fallacy".
Much like many of your other arguments in this thread.

If you WERE doing this deliberately, it would be a very clever ploy, rather along the lines of "Is it lawful to pay taxes to Caesar, yes or no? These are the only 2 choices ... "

No, you're trying to avoid the fact that Superman wasn't noticeably amped there.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
In point of fact, there AREN'T just these 2 choices.
Really, I wonder how you can make statements like this.

You're right. There's a third choice. Superman(and thus Orion) is just on another level of strength than Wonder Woman is. This is the correct choice.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
It's as if you never read a comic book in your life, or at least none where protagonist A has any sort of fight skill whatsoever.

Strangely enough, you're doing this for Orion, a character who has a REPUTATION for being a great warrior. You'd expect a New God with that sort of distinction to be a reasonable match for Superman under a wide variety of conditions. And he is.

In fact, you'd even expect Orion to be a reasonable match for Darkseid, and the comics bear THIS out, too. I notice in one of the selections in your Photobucket album, for instance, you have a showing of Orion going one-on-one against Darkseid in an arena. Looks like Byrne-era artwork, too, where throngs of people at the bottom of the page are awaiting the outcome. I don't know where your selection is from, but it's a good long fight, and apparently Orion wins. I'd appreciate you posting it if you have the time; admittedly, it would ... take me a considerably greater number of posts to do so using MY standard format ... 🙁

So, why didn't you just copy/paste links from my Photobucket? As long as the scans aren't posted out of context, I don't mind them being borrowed. Anyways, unless I have a second length Orion/Darkseid fight I'm unaware of, the fight you're talking about is from Walt Simonson series early 2000's. I could be wrong, but I believe it's from #5, would make the issue from either late 2000 or early 2001. And Orion did win, although by disqualification. The match called for nothing but hand-to-hand combat. Darkseid used the Omega Beams, Orion kept his Astro-Gauntlets in case and used them to make a field to deflect them back at Darkseid, although it turned-out Orion "killing" Darkseid was DS's plan the entire time, I don't recall the details. Anyways, here it is.

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view&current=Orion05p04.jpg

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view&current=Orion05p05.jpg

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view&current=Orion05p06and07.jpg

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view&current=Orion05p08.jpg

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view&current=Orion05p09.jpg

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view&current=Orion05p10.jpg

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view&current=Orion05p11.jpg

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view&current=Orion05p12.jpg

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view&current=Orion05p13.jpg

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view&current=Orion05p14.jpg

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view&current=Orion05p15.jpg

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view&current=Orion05p16.jpg

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view&current=Orion05p17.jpg

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view&current=Orion05p18.jpg

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view&current=Orion05p19.jpg

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view&current=Orion05p20.jpg

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view&current=Orion05p21.jpg

And as you can see, Orion is actually using technique in this fight. Skill didn't come into play at all in MOT #13.

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view&current=week16-1999-supesmot-13-14.jpg

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view&current=week16-1999-supesmot-13-15.jpg

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view&current=week16-1999-supesmot-13-16.jpg

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view&current=week16-1999-supesmot-13-17.jpg

Now, if Orion actually had used skill in MOT #13 anywhere near what he did against Darkseid in ORION, you'd have a valid point. But, that's not what happened. So, basically, you're trying to argue that, Orion without using skill, stalemates an un-amped Superman, and without using skill stalemates an amped Superman. So, what is it? You can't honestly argue Orion's skill, and if you're not willing to admit Superman(and thus Orion) is just on another level of strength than Wonder Woman, you have two options left. Either Orion was amped too, or for some reason Superman's amp doesn't kick-in until after Orion's last punch.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
At any rate, the name for the argument/trap you're trying to use is "false dilemma" or "false dichotomy".

You can read about it if you click on the following:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma

It's not a trap. It's just a simple fact. Orion wasn't using any great skill in the fight, and Superman showed no improvement in performance compared to their previous fight that wouldn't be explained away from his official power-up. So, we're left with three options. Superman is just on another level, Orion was amped too, or for some strange reason, Superman's amp didn't kick-in until after his fight with Orion. Considering this isn't the only time Superman's been shown on just another level of strength, there's no evidence Orion was amped, no statements by the JLA or anybody that he's stronger than normal, and his amp not kicking in until after his fight, I'm gonna go with he's just on another level of strength.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Now, to me, even if you are speaking true, this would be a fairly important "only time". From what I understand, post-Crisis, this is the very FIRST arc in which Darkseid and Superman encounter each other.

It's from LEGENDS. Earlier, we see Superman knows who Darkseid is(he was teleported while in his Clark clothes) but I haven't read all of LEGENDS, so I don't know whether they encountered each other before in it, or Superman is just aware of Darkseid.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
First times usually set the tone and define the rules for subsequent encounters, and are what writers to follow generally use as guidelines for future stories.

Like Superman is indeed stronger than Wonder Woman? But anyways, here's an example of Darkseid using it multiple times.

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Omega%20Beams/

As you can see, Darkseid hits Doomsday with the clear intent to kill. I left-out the "fight" Darkseid had with Doomsday, but showed that Superman used Mother Box to heal Darkseid. We had about 20 pages or so of Superman learning Doomsday's background, before Cyborg-Superman launches some of Darkseid's missiles. Superman can't damage them with either his punches or his heat vision, but Darkseid instantly vaporizes them. You might argue that Darksied had time for it to "recover" but you can clearly see right after he has the intention to kill Cyborg-Superman, and says nothing regarding it requiring recharging. Cyborg-Superman's simply durable enough to survive. So, a minimum of 2 times in short succession of using them, I think it deserves to count as 3, and no mention of them needing to charge.

(TO BE CONTINUED)

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I'm pleased to see you taking care now to note what happens under a specific AUTHOR (John Byrne) as opposed to another later writer or author. They DON'T all have the same take on things. I mentioned this before, of course, but I seriously doubt you've read the passage in this thread where I did so. Even P.R. thought it a good idea to go by author, though, as I related to Salsa in our brief Golden Age spar a few pages back, and I'll probably soon do so.

And yet, you present Superman and the Callisto example as proof that Superman's had a power-down. Yet, don't actually show any evidence. Why is it this isn't simply an example of an author portraying Superman at a different level? That is, unless there's context you're leaving out or are simply unaware of. I've pointed-out that Abhi mentioned you were leaving something out.

Look at it this way. The example you use to claim Superman's been powered-down happens not long after FINAL CRISIS, which, one of the tie-ins, had two of Superman's most impressive feats of strength. The infinite paged book, and slowing down a 70 mile wide(or whatever the exact measurement) ship traveling at dimensional-travel speeds(you have to break the light barrier before you can break the time barrier, and you have to break the time barrier before you can break the dimensional barrier). That would most certainly make it an infinite mass example. So, unless you can provide actual proof that Superman had a power-down, something that would be a reverse showing of these examples--

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/De-Then-Re-Powered/

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/VS%20Lobo/MOS%2030/

--then either the writer didn't want to have Superman throwing around moons and bench pressing solar systems, or there was some reason him and the other Kryptonians had such a struggle, not that he was powered down. In all reality, everything canon from 1986 through 2002, which you ignore, counts. Superman's just about always shown to be stronger. I've had this argument with Fangirl101, and just about every time I showed an example of Superman blatantly proving to be stronger than WW, except for the rape-choke in SACRIFICE, she'd start jumping up and down and screaming, "PRE-UPGRADE PRE-UPGRADE!!!" Which normally, someone showing to be weaker than another before having an upgrade is a good justification, the problem here is, just about every time you try to argue it doesn't count because Wonder Woman's had a power-up, Superman has also had a power-up making that argument invalid. Oh, and the rape-choke from SACRIFICE? She just kept saying, "She broke his grip" despite me demanding where, a question she could never answer.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I answered this a post ago, but it DOES seem you have really trouble visualizing something of this sort.

It's not a mystery to me; perhaps I can help you out with a case involving a similar idea in a comic of yesteryear, the Superman Family #171. I'll do so, if time permits, in the next few moments.

Nope, you simply miss the point. Darkseid states he was hurt, not weakened like you claimed, when hit by the Omega Beams. But Superman was enduring Darkseid's molecular attack while Darkseid would've had time to recover(to a degree, at least, if not mostly or fully) while Superman was being hurt. Darkseid only stops hitting Superman with the energy beam because Superman hits him, interrupting it. So, if being hurt means being weakened, Superman was being weakened by the attack right through the first punch.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I like how you say this, DON'T give the example, and then obviously expect me to find that example after essentially telling me this thread is too hard to search.

I believe I was referring to if you were counting Superwoman fighting Superman Pre-CRISIS, how you didn't include Superman fighting Superwoman, Ultraman and Owlman Post-CRISIS during TRINITY. But c'mon, there's tons of questions you've avoided or missed or whatever, you just flat-out haven't answered. I had asked both directly and indirectly if you were the guy I argued with on the DC boards, you never gave a clear answer, so I stopped asking and just assumed. I asked you if you were including Wonder Woman's Golden Age feats like they count today, something you've given me the impression of more than once, never got an answer. And other questions as well.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
On this last, however, though you're wrong in the absolute sense, it's true that this thread is not the easiest thing in the world to search through at the present time.

You're treating that as an un-fix-able problem.

Without someone taking the time and initiative, it might be.
But you've never really thought on any of the solutions to that, have you?

Let's think about this. Roughly 30 pages in this thread.
Text limit per post. If I take OFF the "Automatically parse URLs" feature, though, start on page 1, click and paste that URL, go to page 2, and repeat that process ...

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=525118&pagenumber=1

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=525118&pagenumber=2

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=525118&pagenumber=3

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=525118&pagenumber=4

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=525118&pagenumber=5

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=525118&pagenumber=6

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=525118&pagenumber=7

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=525118&pagenumber=8

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=525118&pagenumber=9

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=525118&pagenumber=10

I really am not sure what the Hell you're doing now. If you're trying to make it easy for me to go through the previous posts, um, one, there's no links. Two, I never said it were impossible to go through; I normally don't because you rarely give a straight answer when it hurts your case and go through way too many irrelevant points that mean nothing about who's stronger. Three, it'd actually be easier for me to, ya know, go to the top and just click through the pages.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Delta,

Fair warning, I'll probably be giving more attention to the chronological I promised and had been working on with Salsa after this page.

Understand if that does happen that there is a difference between me postponing a reply to work on previously promised things and me actually ignoring someone.

I don't think you can justly claim I've done the latter in your case.
Nor with Salsa. Nor with P.R.

Also, do note, though I don't mind overmuch doing so, engaging with you IS, ultimately, a detour, since this is not the DC boards, not quite the discussion you THINK you remember having with me over there, nor quite what I stated I would be addressing in this particular thread.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=525118&pagenumber=26

I wouldn't think you were ignoring ME. Just the points and arguments and questions that hurt your case. Which is most everything. Honestly, it feels like you decided you wanted Wonder Woman to be stronger, and then went through the comics to find evidence to support your desire. But, the evidence was pretty damn lacking. Like, non-existent. So, you had to manufacture a reason(claiming Superman was powered-down, Wonder Woman was powered-up, despite no actual proof for either and no examples actually showing Wonder Woman getting stronger), and then come-up with a bunch of irrelevant opinions on the nature of comics 'cuz that unsubstantiated argument isn't nearly enough. And you've done nothing, absolutely nothing, to prove anything but this.

(TO BE CONTINUED)

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Random-seeming, but not unrelated to the discussion we've been having of how Superman's powers work,

do you remember exactly where this white dwarf scene takes place?

I could be wrong, but I think ADVENTURES OF SUPERMAN #618.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Worth pointing out, Delta, no matter how strong MOT13Superman was or was not after his power-up suncharge, he did not actually break free from Wonder Woman's group.

There was the concern he would, and Kyle syntesized kryptonite after Wonder Woman said this (and yes there were certainly others there in the full scene and the rest of the page), but Superman did not actually get free himself -- his robots came blasting away to his rescue.

Don't know if that affects your math or not, but, again, it's worth pointing out, even as the numerous trips to the sun that Superman took preceding this scene are.

I never said he broke free of them, and it changes absolutely nothing. My rough math comes from assuming you think, during this era, Wonder Woman, Barda and Martian Manhunter have individually from 80%-90% of Superman's strength, that they have help, and the fact that they have leverage. Ya know, something that amplifies force. Here's a real-life example I've had to explain. At a place where I used to volunteer, there was a supervisor who treated me like her younger("younger" is important here) brother. One time, she tried to trap me in the coat closet. I was off-balance and only resisting with one arm. She was perfectly centered to press with her legs and was using both arms. Yet, despite those advantages, she couldn't trap me. It was pretty much a stalemate, I wasn't able to fully force it open while we were both in our respective positions, but the fact that I was at such a major disadvantage compared to her and still stalemated showed I was a good deal stronger than her. So yes, due to all the circumstances, Superman shows to be stronger than all of them combined there, whether you want to admit it or not.

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Originally posted by Delta1938

[the] choke from SACRIFICE? She just kept saying, "She broke his grip" despite me demanding where, a question she could never answer.

The artwork in Sacrifice is ambiguous enough to support a variety of interpretations.

I'm not Fangirl101, but the following is surely the scene she was referring to:

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
The artwork in Sacrifice is ambiguous enough to support a variety of interpretations.

I'm not Fangirl101, but the following is surely the scene she was referring to:

Besides many other points before I disagree on this one as well.

That scan does not show she getting free out of pure strength but by pain compliance.

If I were being strangled by a much stronger person, I will even adventure to say that If I was being hold by an Elephant. I will successfully apply pain compliance to the eyes of an elephant or the much stronger person in order for them to release me.

And to mention something else. I believe You were referring to Carver as the person banned from here. But He is not banned from the boards. Seem Pr is usually keeping an eye on him. But He is still around.

And Fangirl101 has also been banned from here, but not only from this boards but from the whole site for other reasons.

Originally posted by biensalsa

I believe You were referring to Carver as the person banned from here. But He is not banned from the boards. Seem Pr is usually keeping an eye on him. But He is still around.

Fangirl101 ... banned ... but not only from this boards but from the whole site for other reasons.

Thanks for the info. And yes, you were correct - it was Carver I was referring to, but not as being banned altogether, merely blocked from participating in this particular forum and this thread specifically.

---------------------------------

The artwork in Sacrifice is ambiguous enough to support a variety of interpretations.

I'm not Fangirl101, but the following is surely the scene she was referring to:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13865586

Originally posted by biensalsa

Besides many other points before I disagree on this one as well.

That scan does not show she getting free out of pure strength but by pain compliance.

Be kind of hard to do -- your take IS one of various interpretations.

One I largely agree with, by the way.

And also the one best supported by that segment of Rucka's 2005 interview in Newsarama included in my above picture.

Regardless of how Diana did it, though, break that hold she did, and it sure looks to me, and to you as well, judging from your text, that she did it before the kryptonite came out, despite their being thoroughly in Superman's ideal court by this time (i.e. our yellow sun), with all the power increase for Superman that mere fact implies.

Originally posted by biensalsa

If I were being strangled by a much stronger person, I will even adventure to say that If I was being hold by an Elephant--
I will successfully apply pain compliance to the eyes...

I would advise you never personally test your theory, Salsa.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
The artwork in Sacrifice is ambiguous enough to support a variety of interpretations.

I'm not Fangirl101, but the following is surely the scene she was referring to:

I think is pretty clear in your scan, how is described that He applied the logical moves in a fight.

Thus reinforcing the pain compliance move and it does not leave too much room for interpretation.

Also Carver is a well known Superman um... He does not seem to like Superman that much (to put it in a diplomatic manner) and apparently He tends to troll around Superman.

And too late for your advise, already tested and done.

biensalsa

I will even adventure to say that if I was being held by an ELEPHANT ...
I will successfully apply pain compliance to the eyes.

I would advise you never personally test your theory, Salsa.

biensalsa

Too late ... already tested and done.

😕 🙁 ermm

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
The artwork in Sacrifice is ambiguous enough to support a variety of interpretations.

I'm not Fangirl101, but the following is surely the scene she was referring to:

Never said you were Fangirl. Oh I could never mistake you for Fangirl. But the two of you share a tendency to excuse away all but this example of Superman blatantly showing to be stronger than Wonder Woman as "Pre-power-up." Which would be a legitimate excuse, were it not for the fact that nearly every time the two of you use that to justify dismissing the examples, Superman has also had a power-up since the example I've shown.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Thanks for the info. And yes, you were correct - it was Carver I was referring to, but not as being banned altogether, merely blocked from participating in this particular forum and this thread specifically.

😒: 😠 I already cover this!!!!! Oh I am SOOOOO appreciated!!!

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
---------------------------------

The artwork in Sacrifice is ambiguous enough to support a variety of interpretations.

I'm not Fangirl101, but the following is surely the scene she was referring to:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13865586

Be kind of hard to do -- your take IS one of [B]various interpretations.

One I largely agree with, by the way.

And also the one best supported by that segment of Rucka's 2005 interview in Newsarama included in my above picture.[/B]

I don't see what other interpretations there can be. She clearly was unable to break his grip. Breaking his grip would mean she actually physically forced his hands off her throat instead of using pain compliance. It's quite clear he let go because of the eye-gouging and probable groin strike.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Regardless of how Diana did it, though, break that hold she did, and it sure looks to me, and to you as well, judging from your text, that she did it before the kryptonite came out, despite their being thoroughly in Superman's ideal court by this time (i.e. our yellow sun), with all the power increase for Superman that mere fact implies.

No, she did not break his hold. Look above for what that would be. But with your argument about the power increase from the Sun, that would pretty much strength the fact that she could not break his grip. She completely and utterly failed to before they even went into space, let alone near the Sun.

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view&current=WonderWomanv221905.jpg

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view&current=WonderWomanv221906.jpg

And not only could she not break his grip, but as I've pointed-out the technique she's trying let's a victim break the grip of a STRONGER attacker, but she's still failing. Thus, this is him showing to be MUCH stronger than her. And the "Kneel Before Lord" example, when you look at what happened in the previous issue, actually reinforces it.

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Strength/Overpowers%20Diana/

She does resist, so yes, he does overpower her. Your attempt to dismiss this would only explain why she doesn't try to get away, but it's only one reason. Likely, she knew she couldn't get out.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
😕

I would advise you never personally test your theory, Salsa.

Well, with an elephant, odds are one wouldn't even know it was coming. Despite their vast size, they're incredibly stealthy. They have THICK pads of fat on their feet that make them very, very silent when they walk. People have been getting attacked by them in India(I think it was) quite a bit, mostly by ones that have had their tusks removed, and at night where it's hard to see them, the victims don't even know what hit them until they're told, if they survive.

BUUUUUUT, going for the eyes is actually one of your best weapons for most deadly animal attacks. Obviously something like a snake would be a bit harder to do(whether it's too fast and just bites you, or is a constrictor and too hard to get to the eyes), but I know from both articles and documentaries I've seen about shark attacks, that shark experts have said about great whites, if you're attacked, go for the gills or the eyes. They don't gaurentee(sp?) you'll survive, but tell you it's your best chance of getting it to stop and go away.

Originally posted by Delta1938
[W]ith an elephant, odds are one wouldn't even know it was coming. Despite their vast size, they're incredibly stealthy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bXaFZBnoMM&feature=related
(6:16)

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bXaFZBnoMM&feature=related
(6:16)

It was able to sneak around town and all in the apartment right until it started climbing up the stairs, and it was noisy from then on. I have come to the conclusion that stairs curse elephants.

Hats off to bluewaterrider... the most dedicated defender of WW, heck probably any character (in a single thread) I've seen. Managed to maintain calmness, and a logical style throughout 30 pages too, that's impressive.

Whether or not people agree with your assessment, they've probably have a new-found respect for WW, at least I have.

I have always have respect for her, but to say she is stronger than Superman? not really!

Originally posted by Placidity
Hats off to bluewaterrider... the most dedicated defender of WW, heck probably any character (in a single thread) I've seen. Managed to maintain calmness, and a logical style throughout 30 pages too, that's impressive.

Whether or not people agree with your assessment, they've probably have a new-found respect for WW, at least I have.

Thanks, Placidity!

I knew from experience and the viewcounts (well over 13,000 today, though they were only at 4,900 or so when I started posting in this 2 year old thread several weeks ago) that people were following this thread with interest, and that I might even have a few fans of my own, but it is very encouraging to see a message such as yours from time to time.

Originally posted by biensalsa
I have always have respect for her, but to say she is stronger than Superman? not really!

We'll work on it.

Unfortunately, Salsa, the greatest resource reservoirs for my Wonder Woman material have largely evaporated from 2 years ago.
Probably the greatest I shall EVER hope to see disappeared forever in 2010, for instance, and if you understood my earlier message you understand exactly the whats and whys of that, but similarly convenient resources have also phased out. My Local Comic Shops (LCSs)? Gone.
One relocated. One out of business.
Borders book store, home of the DC Archives and Showcase volumes?
Gone. Went out of business sometime end of 2011 and/or beginning of this year, never to return. Never could have imagined that would happen in a college (ie. heavy READING) town like mine, but, so it did.

I'm left with my limited personal collection.
"Limited" being the key word.

You can see in this attachment, for instance, the full extent of my "Sensation" comics collection. Believe it or not, that's everything I own of this title, the only real series that could match a year-by-year showing for your "Action" line. The initial "Wonder Woman" title, by contrast, was, apparently, a quarterly magazine, appearing a mere 4 times per year. Think that improved to bi-monthly and then, eventually, a monthly title, but that took awhile.
My collection there has gaps, too, though none nearly so sizeable as the Sensation run, but even the full collection, being effectively outpublished 3-to-1, would have little chance of fairly competing.

No matter. That just means I can't match you year-for-year for the present time. I can still proceed chronologically by era and author as intended initially ...

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Thanks, Placidity!

I knew from experience and the viewcounts (well over 13,000 today, though they were only at 4,900 or so when I started posting in this 2 year old thread several weeks ago) that people were following this thread with interest, and that I might even have a few fans of my own, but it is very encouraging to see a message such as yours from time to time.

I don't want to be a party pooper but He is a Batman fan.

And We all know how much Batman fans love Wonder Woman 😉

Just kidding

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
We'll work on it.

Unfortunately, Salsa, the greatest resource reservoirs for my Wonder Woman material have largely evaporated from 2 years ago.
Probably the greatest I shall EVER hope to see disappeared forever in 2010, for instance, and if you understood my earlier message you understand exactly the whats and whys of that, but similarly convenient resources have also phased out. My Local Comic Shops (LCSs)? Gone.
One relocated. One out of business.
Borders book store, home of the DC Archives and Showcase volumes?
Gone. Went out of business sometime end of 2011 and/or beginning of this year, never to return. Never could have imagined that would happen in a college (ie. heavy READING) town like mine, but, so it did.

I'm left with my limited personal collection.
"Limited" being the key word.

You can see in this attachment, for instance, the full extent of my "Sensation" comics collection. Believe it or not, that's everything I own of this title, the only real series that could match a year-by-year showing for your "Action" line. The initial "Wonder Woman" title, by contrast, was, apparently, a quarterly magazine, appearing a mere 4 times per year. Think that improved to bi-monthly and then, eventually, a monthly title, but that took awhile.
My collection there has gaps, too, though none nearly so sizeable as the Sensation run, but even the full collection, being effectively outpublished 3-to-1, would have little chance of fairly competing.

No matter. That just means I can't match you year-for-year for the present time. I can still proceed chronologically by era and author as intended initially ...

You can buy digital copies online though DC comics