Superman Vs Wonderwoman

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
From my understanding, Matt Idleson, being a DC editor, would outrank even talented and famous writers when it comes to determining how things go at the company. I could be very wrong in assuming that is the way things work, though.

It won't matter, though, if Supergirl isn't shown to be stronger in the comics. Writer statements are generally only really valid (at least on vs forums and the like) if the comics actually back them up.

Like Loeb for example. He stated that he wrote Superman as being DC's most powerful superhero in an interview. His comics reflected that, so we can tie the two together.

I think it's worth noting that Blue's going off the subject we were on over his claim that Pre-DCnU Supergirl is stronger than Superman, by pushing DCnU Supergirl's claim. It's been made clear he's wrong, so now he's changing it a little.

Originally posted by Delta1938
I think it's worth noting that Blue's going off the subject we were on over his claim that Pre-DCnU Supergirl is stronger than Superman, by pushing DCnU Supergirl's claim. It's been made clear he's wrong, so now he's changing it a little.

What?

Changing it HOW exactly?

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
What?

Changing it HOW exactly?

I think he's more speaking of how we went from talking about pre-flashpoint Supergirl to the post Flashpoint one so suddenly.

Either way, I'd hope that we can get back to the matter at hand, which is Superman Vs Wonder Woman.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Very. Idleson said this when they were showing Supergirl #2 for an audience.

" ... Issue #2 pages were shown, and it includes the first time Supergirl meets her cousin, Superman. "There's a certain distrust," Asrar said with a laugh as a slide was shown where Supergirl punches Superman.

"She's actually stronger than Kal-El," Idelson said. Johnson said, "She came out of that pod ready to go, as people noticed," he said.

The beginning of the second issue starts on Krypton, Johnson said, then it moves to Earth and establishes the new status quo for the relationship and distrust between Superman and Supergirl ..."

http://www.newsarama.com/comics/nycc-2011-dc-superman-panel-111015.html

Blue, I already posted this whole fight in the DCnU and what ever He said on stage or on interview, contradicts the showing on panel.

If any the part in which he is right is the part in which he says "Supergirl is ready to go" as she is not shown in the early years of her carer as Superman is in Action Comics.

Going by that, then yes Supergirl is more powerful than the Superman in the Action Comics story, which is taken place in the past.

But going by "the present" Superman completely show to be stronger and more powerful.

I think this is just a case of a miss understanding.

But it seems all We have agreed that Superman is stronger than Supergirl.

Weather he got his powers at 5, 8, 12 or 16 is a secondary case.

We agree that Superman is stronger than Supergirl.

So now We can move to the next point. which is Superman vs Wonder Woman

And I will really like to learn more from Wonder Woman. As I have learned a lot from her in this type of debates.

Originally posted by biensalsa
Blue, I already posted this whole fight in the DCnU and what ever He said on stage or on interview, contradicts the showing on panel.

If any the part in which he is right is the part in which he says "Supergirl is ready to go" as she is not shown in the early years of her carer as Superman is in Action Comics.

Going by that, then yes Supergirl is more powerful than the Superman in the Action Comics story, which is taken place in the past.

But going by "the present" Superman completely show to be stronger and more powerful.

I think this is just a case of a miss understanding.

But it seems all We have agreed that Superman is stronger than Supergirl.

Weather he got his powers at 5, 8, 12 or 16 is a secondary case.

We agree that Superman is stronger than Supergirl.

So now We can move to the next point.

And I will really like to learn more from Wonder Woman. As I have learned a lot from her in this type of debates.

I don't agree with the idea that Superman is stronger than Supergirl at either point, Salsa, but, I can make those points as time permits in the future with you. I do agree that DCnU Supergirl doesn't have all that much on the printed page yet.

2004--2008 Supergirl, though?
Like I said, we'll talk more on that later.

You've consistently proven the most cordial opponent to me in this thread, and I do certainly have more to share;
I'll resume with what I said would.

I do hope, by the way, that you've not given up on your idea of starting a Golden Age Superman thread.
You had some good material, stuff I was really beginning to enjoy, stuff that made me understand why Grant Morrison wanted the chance to write about the character in modern times.

Thanks for that.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I don't agree with the idea that Superman is stronger than Supergirl at either point, Salsa, but, I can make those points as time permits in the future with you. I do agree that DCnU Supergirl doesn't have all that much on the printed page yet.

2004--2008 Supergirl, though?
Like I said, we'll talk more on that later.

You've consistently proven the most cordial opponent to me in this thread, and I do certainly have more to share;
I'll resume with what I said would.

I do hope, by the way, that you've not given up on your idea of starting a Golden Age Superman thread.
You had some good material, stuff I was really beginning to enjoy, stuff that made me understand why Grant Morrison wanted the chance to write about the character in modern times.

Thanks for that.

Where's the evidence for Supergirl being stronger? The whole implication thing was explained away, you just don't want to concede. Hard evidence has been shown. Yet you still won't concede.

I honestly do not mean this as an insult, but with your continued insistence that Wonder Woman and Supergirl are stronger than Superman, despite no evidence whatsoever on your part and numerous examples proving your claims wrong, I've come to the conclusion that you're either a subtle troll, or a gender traitor.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I don't agree with the idea that Superman is stronger than Supergirl at either point, Salsa, but, I can make those points as time permits in the future with you. I do agree that DCnU Supergirl doesn't have all that much on the printed page yet.

2004--2008 Supergirl, though?
Like I said, we'll talk more on that later.

You've consistently proven the most cordial opponent to me in this thread, and I do certainly have more to share;
I'll resume with what I said would.

I do hope, by the way, that you've not given up on your idea of starting a Golden Age Superman thread.
You had some good material, stuff I was really beginning to enjoy, stuff that made me understand why Grant Morrison wanted the chance to write about the character in modern times.

Thanks for that.

Well then it will be nice to see the evidence that backs your claim of Supergirl being stronger than Superman.

And I am aware of the instance of the girl with the black rock and the early issues with Supergirl.

But all this is explained by LOEB saying that is basically a teenager girl learning how to control her power, when Superman already knows how to regulate it.

So, I will like to see this evidence, please because I have not seen it.

I am working on the feats of golden age superman and silver age superman, but is time consuming.

I don't think I will make a respect thread, but I will upload the feats in my pb and if someone wants to make it then they are more than welcome to use the scans.

Also I believe cases should be backed up by evidence.

Interviews and bios are just to reinforce a case if is backed up by evidence, but trying to present a case based on interviews and bios will most likely fall into a wishful thinking type of case, IMO.

Evidence on panel is clear.

This will be like a court case.

If I have footage of a guy doing something bad, it will have more value than an interview to a witness. Witness tend to be nervous and sometimes their depiction of the events is not very clear.

Footage evidence on the other hand has more value and if backed by a witness depiction of the events, even better.

Sometimes artist or writers on the interviews tend to forget certain details.

Again IMO

From the interview of writers of supergirl

Nrama: It seems like you guys are establishing a lot in this series about Kryptonian powers and how they work on Earth in this new DC universe. But to clarify why Supergirl was able to pound on Superman, was Kal-El holding back during this fight?

Green: Probably. He wasn't looking to win that fight. He was looking to relay information. He's a guy who can take a punch, so he let her land some.She may have powers equal to him, or she may have powers that exceed. But he has more experience using them.

Since Blue is blocking Abhi's posts, I'll relay it for him.

Originally posted by abhilegend
From the interview of writers of supergirl

quote:
Nrama: It seems like you guys are establishing a lot in this series about Kryptonian powers and how they work on Earth in this new DC universe. But to clarify why Supergirl was able to pound on Superman, was Kal-El holding back during this fight?

Green: Probably. He wasn't looking to win that fight. He was looking to relay information. He's a guy who can take a punch, so he let her land some.She may have powers equal to him, or she may have powers that exceed. But he has more experience using them.

So, this is correct, the guy was merely leaving it unclear on how she stacks up to him, not saying that DCnU Supergirl is stronger than Superman.

Originally posted by Delta1938
the guy was merely leaving it unclear on how she stacks up to him, not saying that DCnU Supergirl is stronger than Superman.

Delta, the person you're quoting is Michael Green, not Matt Idleson.

Originally posted by biensalsa

I believe cases should be backed up by evidence.

... like a court case.

Salsa, I agree with this for the most part. The part you're leaving out is that there must be some reasoning behind a juror or judge's evaluation.
And not only some reasoning but it should be good reasoning and convince people that it is either equal to or better reasoning than other alternatives.

Originally posted by biensalsa

I will really like to learn more from Wonder Woman. As I have learned a lot from her in this type of debates.

The collection on my hard drive is, unfortunately, as scattered in some areas as much as Delta said his is. Takes a frustratingly long time to retrieve material in some cases, not so much in others.

I'd been looking for the following, for instance, wanted to post to either point out the inconsistency and duality of Marston, or how seemingly disparate showings can be reconciled.

Referring to what I just posted, note that in previous entries, chains were ... among other things ... weights that were used to increase physical strength. One of many tools used to make rebellious, destructive criminal nature subdued.

Different altogether the symbolism in instances like THAT ... than the one just shown...

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Salsa, I agree with this for the most part. The part you're leaving out is that there must be some reasoning behind a juror or judge's evaluation.
And not only some reasoning but it should be good reasoning and convince people that it is either equal to or better reasoning than other alternatives.

This is what We are doing here and We are judging the evidence, but so far I have not seen anything from 2003 to 2011 that will lead me to believe that WW> Superman or that Supergirl > Superman.

And what has been shown so far of Supergirl > Superman has been countered with examples and panel evidence. where it actually shows the opposite.

It will be nice to see the WW evidence.

BTW the instance in which KC Superman tanked Hercules punch. I chalk that up to a Superman power in action.

It has been stated that Superman cannot be moved if He is ready for it.

Though Doomsday broke that power once.

, ,

This "power" if you want to call it like that has existed since the golden age i believe.

Originally posted by biensalsa

This "power" ... has existed since the Golden Age ...

Might be common to most superheroes.
Do have to say, I understand what you mean.

Having said that, though, I also have to say that you used 2 poor examples.

Near perfect example? Superman tanking Hulk's punches in the first Marvel/DC crossover. Hulk getting stronger and stronger, Superman having doubt about whether he can keep weathering the storm, but managing to do so, almost unflinchingly, until the moment he pinpoints the device angering Hulk, catches said device, and destroys it, whereupon Hulk's rage and attack immediately subside.

THAT would be a near perfect illustration of what you're trying to tell me in your previous post above.

These two? Hmm... not so much.

I don't know what happens in the first story you showed.
In your images, though, Superman is thinking too himself that Rock is ready to go, and, indeed, a reader can observe by the style of the thought balloons, the slowing halted speech, that Rock is weakening; is figuratively at the end of his rope.
Relatively unimpressive; "tanking" in that instance;
Spider-man does as much with the Lizard in one encounter.

Doomsday? Better, but still has a similar problem: Superman TELLS us that Doomsday is getting weaker, that is strength and invulnerability have been affected for the worse.

One last thing is that KC Superman has, of course, the very noticeable difference of age on "our" Superman.
In other words, extra long-term yellow sun exposure. Which means more strength and invulnerability.

Again, I understand the point you're trying to make perfectly.
But you're not accounting for the biggest and most note-able conceptual reason KC Superman can be EXPECTED to do what he does with Herc, while our Superman cannot be.

And, like the Hulk showing in the Marvel/DC crossover, there ARE better things to use to illustrate.

Real quick, you mentioned Golden Age, asked for more, brought up just now a case of a hero accomplishing through will what is seems at first outside of their ability ...

Reminded me of the following:

Gravity and other special problems.

(How powers work, the role of will, strange inconsistencies and parallels, etcetera)

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Salsa, I agree with this for the most part. The part you're leaving out is that there must be some reasoning behind a juror or judge's evaluation.
And not only some reasoning but it should be good reasoning and convince people that it is either equal to or better reasoning than other alternatives.

So you think you somehow have a case when all you've ever shown is reasoning? You keep saying it's clear that Wonder Woman is stronger than Superman from 2003-2011, yet all you give is reasoning, not evidence to back it. Almost the only scans you've ever shown is stuff from the Golden Age, which One: Has nothing to do with 2003-2011(unless you somehow think they count for her during that period?) and Two: It's already been proven Superman's stronger in the Golden Age, too.

I already posted showing numerous examples of Superman overpowering(meaning competition of strength) Wonder Woman AND showing superior performances of strength against a common opponent from 2003-2011, as well as shown 2 strength feats I doubt you can come close to matching, let alone exceeding, from that time period.

I also debunked your claim that Superman was powered down during that time period, and have continuously pointed-out that you've never provided any evidence that Wonder Woman was actually powered-up in general, nor provided anything to show she got stronger specifically. Meaning, all the times he proved to be stronger than her directly or by comparison of opponents, as well as all his superior feats of strength, from that time period count and cannot be dismissed.

You've just presented a bunch of theories and "reasoning" based entirely on wishful thinking. Not a single fact has been presented on your part.

Superman is not only stronger than Wonder Woman from 1986 through-out 2002, but is also stronger from 2003-2011. MUCH stronger, in fact. Considering you haven't even acknowledged my offer to try and find these instances you think prove your case if you give me issue references, and the promise to upload and post them if I find them, pretty much reinforces to me that you have nothing but wishful thinking.