FF8 Party v.s. Ganondorf

Originally posted by TacDavey
We have to assume that they do, or at least would still be pretty damaging. You can't discredit something because it happened in another world, or all of these debates would be completely pointless unless the characters in question came from the same universe.

The Light Arrows aren't arrows that have the ability to kill anything in one shot. They simply do so because they are powerful. They pretty much vaporize enemies in Wind Waker. Besides the Master Sword, they are one of the strongest light weapons in the LoZ universe, so if THEY don't hurt Ganon, Holy doesn't.

Yeah, they would be pretty strong, I can accept that.
I'm simply saying that because they kills everything in the Zelda Universe does not mean it will kill everything in any Universe. If the Zelda enemies can be vaporized does not mean other characters would be vaporized as well. Holy is just a magic that affects evil creatures such as undead entities and other ones, I don't know how much power that have because it is never specified, it can be weak compared to those arrows or maybe very powerful. Dunno really, but those arrows as far as I know can hurt just evil creatures or dark creatures in that Universe. So I don't know from where you take the conclusion that Holy won't hurt that guy and that he's immune. You are again sounding biased and you're using only the rules from the Zelda Universe.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Okay, really quickly summarized. Ganon (or Ganondorf) is an extremely powerful dark sorcerer from the desert. Even before the Triforce, he was hailed for his incredible power, and we can see it in some of the things he does before, or around the beginning of The Legend of Zelda Ocarina of Time. Then, he get's the Triforce of Power. I'm not going into all the details, but it's pretty much the most powerful thing ever in the LoZ universe. He takes over Hyrule, Plunges the world into darkness, and pretty much can't be stopped by anyone other than the other Triforce Wielders (Link and Zelda) who are also backed by the Master Sword, Light Arrows, and all the sages. And that is only the events of Ocarina of Time. That's not including all he does in other Zelda titles.

Got it, thanks for the info, although I should play.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Yes, normally you would be right, however when you start getting into magical weapons the weapon itself starts becoming a little more important. Overall still weighing on the wielder, but you can no longer simply ignore the weapon.

Indeed, in that case, the weapon is more important than the warrior, like I said because Ganon can't be killed without it. But this is an exception.

Originally posted by TacDavey
I should read what? I know we aren't debating as if it's impossible for the FF party to kill Ganon. If we WHERE no one would be here right now, because there would be no debate. Ganon wins, hands down.

But that doesn't mean that knowing Ganon cannot originally be defeated by anything other than the Master Sword isn't still important to the discussion. It still provides a good example of Ganon's power.

This, the rules:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f85/t462424.html

12. Certain characters are known to be omnipotent or invulnerable canonically. Examples of such are Pyron, whose actual limitations are not known, Pyramid Head, who is essentially an incorporeal manifestation of psycological issues, and Ganon, who cannot be defeated without the Master Sword and/or Light Arrows.

That's why I said I won't debate this battle, I don't know anything about Zelda anyway to make an arguemnt. I'm just... Talking about the current topic and having fun talking to you guys, also learning new stuff. Maybe I decide to play some Zelda game soon.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Oh look, that argument we keep sinking. The master sword was present. I win. Also, note how giving a failsafe the same abusable power as the triforce would be counterproductive.

The Master Sword was never used in the Imprisoning War. You fail.

Originally posted by Sin_Volvagia
The Master Sword was never used in the Imprisoning War. You fail.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
No u. See Ocarina of Time.

Problem is that Ganondorf didn't have the full Triforce nor was he was in the Dark World. Also, Twilight Princess says Hi

Originally posted by Sin_Volvagia
Problem is that Ganondorf didn't have the full Triforce nor was he was in the Dark World. Also, Twilight Princess says Hi

Originally posted by Sin_Volvagia
Try comparing Stalfos, Iron Knuckle, and Moblins to armed soldiers, Iron Giant, and Malboro.

Armed soldiers? You mean the weak dudes with, like, guns? A Stalfos or Iron Knuckle would toast those guys in a second.

Size isn't everything. Zelda also has enemies who are skilled with dark magic, ect.

Originally posted by Sin_Volvagia
Cute. Ultimecia can possess people from the past, make a GF out of a fear from someone's mind, invent magics from her own mind, stop bullets, and stop time. With Time Compression, she absorbs time and space and eventually become omnipotent. The Triforce of Power has nothing on that.

Ganon can possess people as well. Even Zelda, who is the sage of light and holds the Triforce of Wisdom. Ganon doesn't need to stop bullets or time, as he is practically invincible. Ultimicia's Time Compression isn't anything useful in this circumstance. And might I add that Ultimicia cannot willingly travel through time. She needs to use a special machine to do that called the "Junction Machine Ellone."

Ganon is an extremely powerful dark sorcerer who is made even more powerful with the Triforce of Power which, as I said, is one of the strongest artifacts in all of Zelda.

Originally posted by Sin_Volvagia
Vampire Killer does a better job at that and it's a whip.

I don't know what Vampire Killer is, so I can't comment.

Originally posted by Sin_Volvagia
Good against evil or not, it still takes a couple of hits to kill a humanoid enemy.

Right. And Soul Edge requires even more hits to take down an unarmored 15 year old girl. It's game mechanics, bro.

Originally posted by Sin_Volvagia
Holy will work as it does damage pure evil enemies more (like Neo Exdeath).

So? That doesn't place it on the same level as Light Arrows. And again, Light Arrows only stun him. It took the power of the all the sages to simply seal Ganon away.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Yeah, they would be pretty strong, I can accept that.
I'm simply saying that because they kills everything in the Zelda Universe does not mean it will kill everything in any Universe. If the Zelda enemies can be vaporized does not mean other characters would be vaporized as well. Holy is just a magic that affects evil creatures such as undead entities and other ones, I don't know how much power that have because it is never specified, it can be weak compared to those arrows or maybe very powerful. Dunno really, but those arrows as far as I know can hurt just evil creatures or dark creatures in that Universe. So I don't know from where you take the conclusion that Holy won't hurt that guy and that he's immune. You are again sounding biased and you're using only the rules from the Zelda Universe.

I'm taking it from the fact that not even Light Arrows hurt him. Not much anyway. Holy hasn't shown itself to be more powerful than Light Arrows, or even on the same level. It's just a spell, like fire or blizzard except it's element is light.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Indeed, in that case, the weapon is more important than the warrior, like I said because Ganon can't be killed without it. But this is an exception.

This, the rules:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f85/t462424.html

[b]12. Certain characters are known to be omnipotent or invulnerable canonically. Examples of such are Pyron, whose actual limitations are not known, Pyramid Head, who is essentially an incorporeal manifestation of psycological issues, and Ganon, who cannot be defeated without the Master Sword and/or Light Arrows.

That's why I said I won't debate this battle, I don't know anything about Zelda anyway to make an arguemnt. I'm just... Talking about the current topic and having fun talking to you guys, also learning new stuff. Maybe I decide to play some Zelda game soon. [/B]

I know. But like I said. Just because we aren't treating Ganon as invincible against anything other than the Master Sword, doesn't mean that the fact that he was originally hurt only by the Master Sword is unimportant. It still shows just how powerful he is, even though we are allowing him to be hurt by normal weapons in this case.

Originally posted by TacDavey
I'm taking it from the fact that not even Light Arrows hurt him. Not much anyway. Holy hasn't shown itself to be more powerful than Light Arrows, or even on the same level. It's just a spell, like fire or blizzard except it's element is light.

I know. But like I said. Just because we aren't treating Ganon as invincible against anything other than the Master Sword, doesn't mean that the fact that he was originally hurt only by the Master Sword is unimportant. It still shows just how powerful he is, even though we are allowing him to be hurt by normal weapons in this case.

You are comparing two different elements in two different universes.
How do you know Holy isn't more powerful than those Light Arrows? Its power is never specified in Final Fantasy.

You are allowing him to be hurt by normal weapons? That's the same, he cannot be defeated by normal weapons. Canonically you can't change that fact.

How do you know Holy isn't more powerful than those Light Arrows? Its power is never specified in Final Fantasy.

Holy's power is never specified >_>

Originally posted by TacDavey
Armed soldiers? You mean the weak dudes with, like, guns? A Stalfos or Iron Knuckle would toast those guys in a second.

Military soldiers are much deadlier than skeletons with swords and living armor.

Size isn't everything. Zelda also has enemies who are skilled with dark magic, ect.

FF8 party fights smart dragons, GFs, instant-killing cacti, Malboro (which inflict every negative status in the game with their breath), sorceresses (way beyond anything in Zelda), robots, giant versions of Iron Knuckle, and Ultima/Omega Weapon.

Ganon can possess people as well.

But not across time like Ultimecia.

Even Zelda, who is the sage of light and holds the Triforce of Wisdom.

She got nothing on Selphie, Quistis, or Rinoa.

Ganon doesn't need to stop bullets or time, as he is practically invincible.

Is that why he gets harmed by the Megaton Hammer/Biggoron Sword and regular arrows?

Ganon is an extremely powerful dark sorcerer who is made even more powerful with the Triforce of Power which, as I said, is one of the strongest artifacts in all of Zelda.

He's only on Adel's level if not lower.

I don't know what Vampire Killer is, so I can't comment.

Trademark whip of Castlevania.

Right. And Soul Edge requires even more hits to take down an unarmored 15 year old girl. It's game mechanics, bro.

In the case of fighting games, it's different because what's done in gameplay isn't the same as the story. I doubt everyone that played Soul Calibur 2 played as Nightmare first and thought the fight with Raphael ended the game's story.

The Master Sword has no evidence of killing non-weak enemies in one hit. Just because it's the "Blade of Evil's Bane" doesn't mean it kills all of evil in one hit.

So? That doesn't place it on the same level as Light Arrows. And again, Light Arrows only stun him. It took the power of the all the sages to simply seal Ganon away.

The Light Arrows are weak in OoT. They kill him in LoZ and LttP.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Conversely, the light arrows are the most powerful of the magic arrows. Fire arrows can end eternal blizzards and ice arrows can insta freeze volcanoes. Light arrows can disintegrate targets entirely.

The Fire and Ice Arrows do not show any of that power in OoT. Like the light arrows, they are weak in that game.

Was that volcano thing in WW?

Also the Master sword on someone who isnt evil would act like a regular sword, right?

Originally posted by BloodRain
Was that volcano thing in WW?

Also the Master sword on someone who isnt evil would act like a regular sword, right?

Yeah the volcano is in WW?

Master Sword is just a regular sword that can't break when used against non-evil.

Oh... i thought it was freezing a whole volcano in OoT or something..

It froze the Volcano in WW, but they are the same item in both games.

Technically it only stopped some lava from spewing out (small amount too, small volcano), as Link then went inside where there was no ice.. Unless I saw the wrong clip ^^;

Originally posted by Sin_Volvagia
Military soldiers are much deadlier than skeletons with swords and living armor.

Military soldiers can't revive themselves or be practically invincible. Darknuts aren't always living armor.

Anyway, if you want to claim this, at least say why.

FF8 party fights smart dragons, GFs, instant-killing cacti, Malboro (which inflict every negative status in the game with their breath), sorceresses (way beyond anything in Zelda), robots, giant versions of Iron Knuckle, and Ultima/Omega Weapon.

That's nice, but doesn't help them here.

But not across time like Ultimecia.

Why does this matter again? Ganon can do it across dimensions, anyway. Not comparable.

She got nothing on Selphie, Quistis, or Rinoa.

Any of them pull off a genocide?

Is that why he gets harmed by the Megaton Hammer/Biggoron Sword and regular arrows?

Gameplay weakpoint. Light Arrows can be used, as well. Besides, both are Legendary Weapons.

He's only on Adel's level if not lower.

Evidence, man. You're in a cycle. "Ganondorf's weaker because he's weaker" is highly counterproductive.

The Master Sword has no evidence of killing non-weak enemies in one hit. Just because it's the "Blade of Evil's Bane" doesn't mean it kills all of evil in one hit.

If you go by cutscenes, yes it can. Every time, Ganondorf is taken out in 3 hits or less.

The Light Arrows are weak in OoT. They kill him in LoZ and LttP.

Not weak in Wind Waker, and only killed after his defenses were lowered.

The Fire and Ice Arrows do not show any of that power in OoT. Like the light arrows, they are weak in that game.

But not in Wind Waker, so why does this matter?

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
You are comparing two different elements in two different universes.
How do you know Holy isn't more powerful than those Light Arrows? Its power is never specified in Final Fantasy.

You are allowing him to be hurt by normal weapons? That's the same, he cannot be defeated by normal weapons. Canonically you can't change that fact.

No, you can't. But for the sake of the argument you look past it. Isn't that right? I thought that was the rule.

Originally posted by Sin_Volvagia
Military soldiers are much deadlier than skeletons with swords and living armor.

I doubt that highly, since those soldiers get taken out by students with swords. If a mercenary in training can take them down, an undead tank with giant axe can.

Also, The Scenario is right. You have GOT to get in the habit of backing up your claims.

Originally posted by Sin_Volvagia
FF8 party fights smart dragons, GFs, instant-killing cacti, Malboro (which inflict every negative status in the game with their breath), sorceresses (way beyond anything in Zelda), robots, giant versions of Iron Knuckle, and Ultima/Omega Weapon.

And Link fights giant lazer shooting spiders, Powerful fusing sorceresses, giant undead demons, Massive suits of walking armor with giant axes...

Originally posted by Sin_Volvagia
But not across time like Ultimecia.

Who cares? Again, Ultimicia needs the Junction Ellone machine. She can't go back and forth through time willy nilly.

Originally posted by Sin_Volvagia
She got nothing on Selphie, Quistis, or Rinoa.

Right, because Selphie, Quistis, and Rinoa have the "power of the gods" as the Triforce has been described. But again. Zelda is like a football player and they are like soccer players. They are both powerful in different areas. Sadly, Zelda's area of expertise is the only one that would really come in handy against Ganon.

Originally posted by Sin_Volvagia
Is that why he gets harmed by the Megaton Hammer/Biggoron Sword and regular arrows?

Yup, that's exactly why not one of those things kill him. In fact, they don't do much more than cause him to flinch or get mildly irritated. None of them are ever used to deliver the finishing blow, as none of them can.

Originally posted by Sin_Volvagia
He's only on Adel's level if not lower.

That's funny. I thought for sure we've been over this already. Are you under the impression that if you simply keep claiming it it will somehow magically break down all the times I've refuted it?

This claim has absolutely no basis in fact.

Originally posted by Sin_Volvagia
Trademark whip of Castlevania.

Castlevania... so why is it important in a discussion on FF8 and LoZ?

Originally posted by Sin_Volvagia
In the case of fighting games, it's different because what's done in gameplay isn't the same as the story. I doubt everyone that played Soul Calibur 2 played as Nightmare first and thought the fight with Raphael ended the game's story.

Actually it's EXACTLY the same. It's like that in ALL games. Ninja Gaiden has you slicing through normal people a COUPLE times before they go down. Link can take spears and still keep running, as it only takes, like, one heart. etc etc.

That's how games work. Not JUST fighting games.

You are mixing game mechanics with reality, I see it happening A LOT in these forums. The two are completely separate.

Originally posted by Sin_Volvagia
The Master Sword has no evidence of killing non-weak enemies in one hit. Just because it's the "Blade of Evil's Bane" doesn't mean it kills all of evil in one hit.

It's a sword. When it cuts things, they die. End of story. The Master Sword has the delightful ability to, among other things, slice through even the darkest evil.

Originally posted by Sin_Volvagia
The Light Arrows are weak in OoT. They kill him in LoZ and LttP.

What makes you say they are weak? And we've been over LoZ and LttP before as well.

The Fire and Ice Arrows do not show any of that power in OoT. Like the light arrows, they are weak in that game.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Was that volcano thing in WW?

Also the Master sword on someone who isnt evil would act like a regular sword, right?

Ganon TKs them and breaks their spines.

Angelo makes them invincible and they walk away.

Ganondorf wins via TK or Twilight Casting, defeats Link as he comes along, marries Zelda, becomes King of Hyrule and of the world and lives happily ever after. 😄