FF8 Party v.s. Ganondorf

Started by TacDavey40 pages
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Actually, Holy is one of the strongest Spells in the game. If you say so... Then If arrows can hurt that guy, then also Magic based on Light. What makes you think that some arrows with light are more powerful than Magic based in light? Also, if Ganon is weak to those arrows, then why Zell would be weak to the same arrows? Canonically those arrows hurts that guy, but we can't say that canonically would destroy everything else. If you use the Zelda rules, then it doesn't affect other Universes. Canonically that guy is weak, Zell canonically is not.

I don't think there is any part in Zelda that says "These arrows hurt evil and absolutely nothing else."

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Aren't you doing the same? You said that no one can stop Ganon, except the sword and some arrows.

No, I'm providing a list of Ganon's know feats that show him to be powerful, as well as the game stating it. Adel's only defense is, she was ruler for a time and people were scared of her. She has no feats, and no record of her abilities.

Furthermore, I'm not necessarily claiming that Adel isn't stronger than Ganon, only that there is absolutely NO evidence to suggest she is.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
And what does Ganon can use? What weapon he uses? Sword? Spear? I could say the same, Odin had Zantentsuken who kills everything in Final Fantasy VIII, still the party defeated him, that shows the party is powerful. I don't have idea who is Ganon, but I can see you are underrating Final Fantasy VIII, badly.

No I'm not. Seifer defeated Odin, and Ganon is much stronger than Seifer. I'm not underrating FF8 at all. You all are overrating them. You are claiming Adel is stronger with no evidence to back it up. You claim GFs are stonger with no evidence to back it up. And you claim Holy can do more than Light Arrows, even though it is just a normal spell in FF8, whereas Light Arrows are canonically one of the most powerful weapons. That sounds a bit overrated to me.

Originally posted by Sin_Volvagia
Then the Galbadian army is uber 😆

Riiiight. Cuz that's the logical conclusion to come to. 🙄

Originally posted by Sin_Volvagia
Nope, GFs win.

No they don't.

Originally posted by Sin_Volvagia
Holy is painful to Ganon. Ganon won't survive Alexander or Limit Breaks. A couple of slashes from the Magical Sword and a single Silver Arrow made Ganon explode.

Holy isn't painful to Ganon. Ganon easily survives Alexander and Limit Breaks at the same time, and Ganon never explodes ever.

Originally posted by Sin_Volvagia
Oh really?

🤨 Hey, you brought video evidence! That's not how this works. I thought we had agreed to not bring evidence of any kind to this debate. Are you saying you want to debate with evidence now?

Originally posted by The Scenario
Then why don't we try this again?

YouTube video

Start at 5:49.

Fact 1- Ganondorf is in flaming head form.
Fact 2- Midna is in Fused Shadow form.
Fact 3- Midna makes an attack, causing a flash of light.
Fact 4- Hyrule Castle explodes.
Fact 5- Ganondorf reappears in humanoid/Gerudo form, completely unharmed and with a horse. He is holding the Fused Shadows.
Fact 6- Ganondorf crushes the Fused Shadows

Logical conclusion: Ganondorf blocked, tanked, or countered the attack, taking the Fused Shadows and destroying Hyrule Castle in the process.

Illogical conclusion: Ganondorf took the Fused Shadows before Midna could attack and teleported out before Midna destroyed the castle, despite her not having the Fused Shadows.

The first conclusion is supported by context and evidence, the second is not. Had Ganondorf not been in the castle, he would not have been able to take the Fused Shadows. Further, it would have to done before Midna's attack, when the cutscene clearly shows the attack starting. Ganondorf simply could not have gotten the Fused Shadows without blocking, countering, or tanking the attack.

You're playing dumb again. Don't be so literal. If Midna could not hit Ganondorf, how do you suggest the party do so? Midna's attack has already been shown to be able to break a magical barrier created by Ganondorf. She wouldn't attack if she didn't think she could hit him.

Now you'll have to prove those "vast number" of spells could put Ganondorf down in the first place. Feats will be needed.

Trolling is, and I'm sure blurring the line is frowned upon. Regardless, this is off topic, irrelevant, and I don't really care. I would just suggest refraining from things that others may view as trolling.

I did not guess. I logically concluded that Ganondorf must have been in the castle based on the given evidence and context of the scenes before and after the event in question. Plus, Midna did indeed strike, as it was quite clearly seen that she began an attack. Ganondorf did not take the Fused Shadows before that attack began, so he must have done it during or after. The only way this would be possible is if he was still in the castle, and responded to the attack in some way. Be it blocked, countered, or tanked, Ganondorf was still in the castle when the explosion occurred.

Can you support this conclusion? Holy still has little in the way of feats, while the Light Arrows disintegrate things. The best it could manage is a momentary stun, if that.

Limited knowledge?

I don't care about the Omega weapon. Give me a good reason the FF party manages to defeat Ganondorf.

We've gone over this before. The Silver Arrows are a highly powerful bow upgrade that can destroy most enemies in a single shot. Ganon is completely unaffected by them unless the Master Sword is used to stun him and make him vulnerable. How do you suggest the party get their hands on something like this, or even learn of it?

Based on the first fact, his physical endurance is irrelevant because hes a flaming head so him appearing unscathed when he appears against with the fused shadows is pretty irrelevant.

Theres a thin line between "logical" conclusion and a guess, your still guessing what happened. The fact we see Midna make an attack is irrelevant since we dont see it connect still, the fact Ganondorf defeated her also sort of makes it more likely that he countered.

Another logical conclusion was that the defeat of the fused shadows shattered the castle and the combined power of Ganon and Midna knocked the castle down. Perhaps Ganon just pulled down his castle the same way he did in other Zelda games in the hope of killing midna now that she was weakened without her fused shadows. its still inconclusive and not really a useful feat.

Also apprently Ganon has destroyed an island and shattered part of a castle before. Another conclusion could be that his counterattack wrecked the castle or he pulled it down himself as I said above.

Midnas brought down a barrier therefore she can stab fire like its physical? not logical.....and why wouldnt she attack? she attacked and he bested and took her fused shadows, saying she wouldnt have made an action had she known it would have lead to a negative event is redundant considering thats technically what happened.

As I said, if holy in FF8 is similiar to the one in FF7 then it completly destroys Ganondorf, considering his resistance has yet to be shown then a weak fireball should be enough or a lightning bolt, anything that can be gauged beyond a gameplay mechanic.

logical conclusion/guess, thin line in this case. Also being in the castle is irrelevant if he did indeed make the explosion as he would be in control of his own attack, furthermore he is a fiery head so his "physical" endurance is null, merely pretty intangible.

This topic is still going on? Damn.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
No, no. Go read the OP. >_> Link arrives six hours in to save any survivor among the FF8 party's ass, should they live six whole hours. Which is pretty unlikely. But Link still is mentioned.

Adel's power rests within Rinoa. Adel is there.

Originally posted by TacDavey

No they don't.

Odin, Gilgamesh, Eden, and Alexander sure can.


Holy isn't painful to Ganon.

He gets stunned by Light Arrows in every game they appear. Holy will hurt him.


Ganon easily survives Alexander and Limit Breaks at the same time,

Alexander's Holy Judgment is many times powerful than the Light Arrows. Ganon will be killed.

Ganon surviving Limit Breaks? No he won't. He's taken damage from regular arrows, the Megaton Hammer/Biggoron Sword, Magical Sword, wolf attacks, and even his own weak energy balls. He's getting killed by Limit Breaks.


and Ganon never explodes ever.

Go play the first Zelda. Once Ganon gets struck by a Silver Arrow, he explodes and is reduced to a bloody pile with the Triforce of Power on top. And he stays dead.


🤨 Hey, you brought video evidence! That's not how this works. I thought we had agreed to not bring evidence of any kind to this debate. Are you saying you want to debate with evidence now?

Ganon has done nothing on the level of Adel let alone Ultimecia.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Based on the first fact, his physical endurance is irrelevant because hes a flaming head so him appearing unscathed when he appears against with the fused shadows is pretty irrelevant.

Yes, he is likely intangible as proven by a the previous video where he moved through Zant. No one has yet told me how the party might hit him.


Theres a thin line between "logical" conclusion and a guess, your still guessing what happened. The fact we see Midna make an attack is irrelevant since we dont see it connect still, the fact Ganondorf defeated her also sort of makes it more likely that he countered.

That's odd because you seem to think so highly of logic in other threads. Now it's no better than guessing?

We see Midna make an attack. We see the after effects of said attack. It's rather simple to figure out what happened. The fact that Ganondorf took the fused Shadows does indeed indicated the attack was countered, but also means that Ganondorf had to interact with it.


Another logical conclusion was that the defeat of the fused shadows shattered the castle and the combined power of Ganon and Midna knocked the castle down. Perhaps Ganon just pulled down his castle the same way he did in other Zelda games in the hope of killing midna now that she was weakened without her fused shadows. its still inconclusive and not really a useful feat.

You're switching a defensive feat for an offensive one, basically. The evidence points to a counterattack that leveled the castle, a better feat of destruction than most of what the party has. And yes, it's also possible that Ganondorf pulled down the castle, making it more impressive, but unlikely as he still had to deal with Midna. Unless he countered first, and then destroyed the castle, but that's also unlikely. Simplest one is that the counter destroyed the castle.


Also apprently Ganon has destroyed an island and shattered part of a castle before. Another conclusion could be that his counterattack wrecked the castle or he pulled it down himself as I said above.

And the video proves that he can pull a lot of destructive power very quickly. Possibly up to island level. He's shown before that destroying a castle is well within his power. Also, recall in OoT that Ganondorf was unharmed by his castle collapsing on him, after he was defeated and in Gerudo form.


Midnas brought down a barrier therefore she can stab fire like its physical? not logical.....and why wouldnt she attack? she attacked and he bested and took her fused shadows, saying she wouldnt have made an action had she known it would have lead to a negative event is redundant considering thats technically what happened.

She took dowbn a magical barrier, so attacking a magical being isn't out of the question. However, the head has proven intangibility. The Fused Shadows are confirmed to be "very powerful" magic, though, and it's possible that Midna could have interacted with Ganondorf in that form. He certainly interacted with her when he took the Fused Shadows.


As I said, if holy in FF8 is similiar to the one in FF7 then it completly destroys Ganondorf, considering his resistance has yet to be shown then a weak fireball should be enough or a lightning bolt, anything that can be gauged beyond a gameplay mechanic.

It's different in every Final Fantasy game, and likely dependant on the caster. Zant and Aganihm both use Ganondorf's power very differently than Ganondorf himself. Further, Ganondorf has plenty of feats, such as being attacked by Valoo, a Dragon Spirit and having his ship burned down. He was unharmed. And surviving being stabbed in the stomach/chest with the Sage's sword, and the head with the Master Sword.


logical conclusion/guess, thin line in this case. Also being in the castle is irrelevant if he did indeed make the explosion as he would be in control of his own attack, furthermore he is a fiery head so his "physical" endurance is null, merely pretty intangible.

I'm in control of a bomb, does that mean the explosion won't hurt me? Ganondorf has been hit with own magic before, for all it's worth. I don't remember how the party even hits his intangible head. Or body, considering the Darkness Technique (and he's invisible now, too!)


Adel's power rests within Rinoa. Adel is there.

Does that mean Zant and Aganihm are there, too?


Odin, Gilgamesh, Eden, and Alexander sure can.

Aren't those summons?


He gets stunned by Light Arrows in every game they appear. Holy will hurt him.

Holy will make him flinch, at best. Still needs some feats.


Alexander's Holy Judgment is many times powerful than the Light Arrows. Ganon will be killed.

Can you prove this? Light Arrows disintegrate any enemy in one shot. What does Holy Judgement do, and why can summons suddenly be used?

Ganon surviving Limit Breaks? No he won't. He's taken damage from regular arrows, the Megaton Hammer/Biggoron Sword, Magical Sword, wolf attacks, and even his own weak energy balls. He's getting killed by Limit Breaks.

Not damaged by arrows, only at a weak point with the hammer/sword, Magical Sword fuctions as Master Sword, the wolf was Link empowered by ToC, and his energy balls aren't weak and didn't damage him.


Go play the first Zelda. Once Ganon gets struck by a Silver Arrow, he explodes and is reduced to a bloody pile with the Triforce of Power on top. And he stays dead.

And again, needed a bane weapon to become visible and vulnerable. Otherwise, no.

Ganon has done nothing on the level of Adel let alone Ultimecia.

What exactly have they done? Outside of Time Compression, that is.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Yes, he is likely intangible as proven by a the previous video where he moved through Zant. No one has yet told me how the party might hit him.

That's odd because you seem to think so highly of logic in other threads. Now it's no better than guessing?

We see Midna make an attack. We see the after effects of said attack. It's rather simple to figure out what happened. The fact that Ganondorf took the fused Shadows does indeed indicated the attack was countered, but also means that Ganondorf had to interact with it.

You're switching a defensive feat for an offensive one, basically. The evidence points to a counterattack that leveled the castle, a better feat of destruction than most of what the party has. And yes, it's also possible that Ganondorf pulled down the castle, making it more impressive, but unlikely as he still had to deal with Midna. Unless he countered first, and then destroyed the castle, but that's also unlikely. Simplest one is that the counter destroyed the castle.

And the video proves that he can pull a lot of destructive power very quickly. Possibly up to island level. He's shown before that destroying a castle is well within his power. Also, recall in OoT that Ganondorf was unharmed by his castle collapsing on him, after he was defeated and in Gerudo form.

She took dowbn a magical barrier, so attacking a magical being isn't out of the question. However, the head has proven intangibility. The Fused Shadows are confirmed to be "very powerful" magic, though, and it's possible that Midna could have interacted with Ganondorf in that form. He certainly interacted with her when he took the Fused Shadows.

It's different in every Final Fantasy game, and likely dependant on the caster. Zant and Aganihm both use Ganondorf's power very differently than Ganondorf himself. Further, Ganondorf has plenty of feats, such as being attacked by Valoo, a Dragon Spirit and having his ship burned down. He was unharmed. And surviving being stabbed in the stomach/chest with the Sage's sword, and the head with the Master Sword.

I'm in control of a bomb, does that mean the explosion won't hurt me? Ganondorf has been hit with own magic before, for all it's worth. I don't remember how the party even hits his intangible head. Or body, considering the Darkness Technique (and he's invisible now, too!)

Does that mean Zant and Aganihm are there, too?

Aren't those summons?

Holy will make him flinch, at best. Still needs some feats.

Can you prove this? Light Arrows disintegrate any enemy in one shot. What does Holy Judgement do, and why can summons suddenly be used?

Not damaged by arrows, only at a weak point with the hammer/sword, Magical Sword fuctions as Master Sword, the wolf was Link empowered by ToC, and his energy balls aren't weak and didn't damage him.

And again, needed a bane weapon to become visible and vulnerable. Otherwise, no.

What exactly have they done? Outside of Time Compression, that is.

Depends since I have not yet seen him strike at a foe while intangible.

lol, in this case its no better than guessing. This is not real logic, its your assumptions that your claiming as more logical than others.

We see the effects of "something", not necesserily the attack and we dont see it connect. Or dodge it and kill her before it lands on him. Considering it all happened in a few seconds thats what "logically" happened.

The party can summon meteors, what is a bit of castle destroying compared to that? they can also summon giant monsters that based on physical size alone could crush that castle.

The video does not "prove" anything, only gives the implication and possible suggestion he can cause a castle to topple. A lot of castles topple, are you refering to before he turned into beast Ganon and he broke out of the rubble?

Well when he is holding the fused shadows he is tangible against so its once again ambigious when he actually held the shadows, when he actually formed a new body etc.

Valoo gives him some fire resistance, assuming Valoo has another feat. being stabbed is not really that impressive and although he technically survived being stabbed in the head it incapaciated him in that game and turned him to stone or something.

If you were intangible, no it wont. When he was hit by his energy balls he was harmed.

Originally posted by Sin_Volvagia
Adel's power rests within Rinoa. Adel is there.

Not really. Rinoa can't be as powerful as Adel was, or no one except Ultimicia should have been able to stand up to her. Really, Squall should have just stayed home and let Rinoa handle things from that point on, if she were just as powerful as Adel.

Originally posted by Sin_Volvagia
Odin, Gilgamesh, Eden, and Alexander sure can.

No they can't.

Originally posted by Sin_Volvagia
He gets stunned by Light Arrows in every game they appear. Holy will hurt him.

Correction. Holy MAY stun him, at best.

Originally posted by Sin_Volvagia
Alexander's Holy Judgment is many times powerful than the Light Arrows. Ganon will be killed.

No he won't. Ganon would absorb it and become part light and part dark. He can do that you know. Because I said so and I don't need to back up anything I say.

Originally posted by Sin_Volvagia
Ganon surviving Limit Breaks? No he won't. He's taken damage from regular arrows, the Megaton Hammer/Biggoron Sword, Magical Sword, wolf attacks, and even his own weak energy balls. He's getting killed by Limit Breaks.

Those didn't do any serious damage. They only caused him a bit of pain, but they didn't do anything close to defeating him. Limit Breaks may hurt a little, but that's about all you are going to get out of them.

Originally posted by Sin_Volvagia
Go play the first Zelda. Once Ganon gets struck by a Silver Arrow, he explodes and is reduced to a bloody pile with the Triforce of Power on top. And he stays dead.

So?

Originally posted by Sin_Volvagia
Ganon has done nothing on the level of Adel let alone Ultimecia.

Really? What have either of those two done, Hmm? Ultimicia can make spells from peoples minds, but that is about all she has on Ganon and quite frankly that isn't much. Let's not forget Time Compression, oh wait, it's completely useless because it needs a TON of preparation before it can do anything and so can't be used to win any sort of fight. Not to mention the fact that she can't even do it without Ellone and a machine!

Adel hasn't done ANYTHING. We know absolutely nothing about her. So no one, at one time, could stand up to her. Whoopty doo. GF wielders get beat by normal army men, so that's not anything special. Tell me, what has Adel done that Ganon hasn't? What puts her above him? You haven't been able to answer that very simple question yet.

Not really. Rinoa can't be as powerful as Adel was, or no one except Ultimicia should have been able to stand up to her. Really, Squall should have just stayed home and let Rinoa handle things from that point on, if she were just as powerful as Adel.

Rinoa can't control her power except by forcing herself to go berserk at which point she becomes 5x as powerful and grows Angel wing(which is a sign of an awake sorceress). Plus Rinoa probably has the power of 4 sorceress', as she was given the sorceress powers of Adel and Edea, coupled with her own and since Ultimecia passed on her power to Edea, she might have double-passed them on to Rinoa (which if true is why Rinoa can't be Ultimecia, beacuase she's create an infinate loop of becoming stronger). So logically speaking, yeah, she pretty much is the strongest one there.

Zell+Armageddon Fist= WTFPWN / thread

Originally posted by KingD19
Zell+Armageddon Fist= WTFPWN / thread
shame about how that's not strong enough to hurt Ganon.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Rinoa can't control her power except by forcing herself to go berserk at which point she becomes 5x as powerful and grows Angel wing(which is a sign of an awake sorceress). Plus Rinoa probably has the power of 4 sorceress', as she was given the sorceress powers of Adel and Edea, coupled with her own and since Ultimecia passed on her power to Edea, she might have double-passed them on to Rinoa (which if true is why Rinoa can't be Ultimecia, beacuase she's create an infinate loop of becoming stronger). So logically speaking, yeah, she pretty much is the strongest one there.

But she can't control it. Thought it was something like that.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Depends since I have not yet seen him strike at a foe while intangible.

Not in giant head form, no. But he certainly interacted with Midna at some point.


lol, in this case its no better than guessing. This is not real logic, its your assumptions that your claiming as more logical than others.

And you're not doing the same thing?


We see the effects of "something", not necesserily the attack and we dont see it connect. Or dodge it and kill her before it lands on him. Considering it all happened in a few seconds thats what "logically" happened.

This right here, for instance. It's a flat out guess. "We saw something happen, but it's obviously unrelated to the attack launched moments before." That is unsupported by all evidence, and argues against the evidence itself. Midna's attack was shown starting, and finishing, and we just saw the after effects. Ganondorf was not shown responding when the spear came down. He could not possibly have done anything before the attack landed, because we saw the attack landing.

If he countered the attack, that covers defeating Midna, destroying the castle, and taking the Fused Shadows.

Watch the video again, paying special attention to 6:35. You'll see one pulse of energy before the castle explodes. Just one. The are two options here: 1st, two attacks launched at once collided and destroyed the castle. 2nd, Midna's attack did nothing, and Ganondorf's counterattack destroyed the castle. There's a moment's delay between the pulse and the explosion, enough for a collision or a counterattack. We saw Midna attack first, so the pulse must be her attack or the collision. We didn't see Ganondorf launch an attack at the same time, though. This opens the possibility that Midna didn't have a hand in the castle's destruction and it was all Ganondorf. He might have dodged, he might not have (but see above), but it's now been all but confirmed that Ganondorf alone destroyed the castle.

The party can summon meteors, what is a bit of castle destroying compared to that? they can also summon giant monsters that based on physical size alone could crush that castle.

Tiny featless meteors and against the rules summons? Whatever will Ganondorf do?


The video does not "prove" anything, only gives the implication and possible suggestion he can cause a castle to topple. A lot of castles topple, are you refering to before he turned into beast Ganon and he broke out of the rubble?

Yes. I've proven he destroyed the castle in Twilight Princess, and Ganondorf himself proved he could do so in Ocarina of Time. At the same time, he proved in both games that he can survive a castle collapsing on him. Durability? Check. Offense? Check.


Well when he is holding the fused shadows he is tangible against so its once again ambigious when he actually held the shadows, when he actually formed a new body etc.

Since we saw Midna finish her attack, it was presumably afterward. And then he destroyed them, the powerful evil artifacts that you spent half the damn game finding.

Valoo gives him some fire resistance, assuming Valoo has another feat. being stabbed is not really that impressive and although he technically survived being stabbed in the head it incapaciated him in that game and turned him to stone or something.

Being stabbed isn't impressive? Despite the fact that one of the FF8 party was nearly killed by a stab wound? To the chest, rather than the head like Ganondorf was? And Ganondorf was turned to stone in Wind Waker. In Ocarina of Time, getting stabbed through the skull simply incovienienced him.


If you were intangible, no it wont. When he was hit by his energy balls he was harmed.

So me being harmed wouldn't be depandent on me controlling the bomb, but a completely unrelated abily? You missed the point. Your argument is that Ganondorf survived the castle exploded because he was the one that did it, and he's immune to his own magic. This is clearly false. However, getting hit with his own magic has never caused Ganondorf significant damage. The only times it did sufficient damage to defeat him was when he possessed Zelda or Aganihm, which only proves that Zelda/Aganihm's body isn't as durable as Ganondorf's.

Rinoa can't control her power except by forcing herself to go berserk at which point she becomes 5x as powerful and grows Angel wing(which is a sign of an awake sorceress). Plus Rinoa probably has the power of 4 sorceress', as she was given the sorceress powers of Adel and Edea, coupled with her own and since Ultimecia passed on her power to Edea, she might have double-passed them on to Rinoa (which if true is why Rinoa can't be Ultimecia, beacuase she's create an infinate loop of becoming stronger). So logically speaking, yeah, she pretty much is the strongest one there.

So Ganondorf's possession ability is actually a viable game winner? Rinoa has shown vulnerability to possession, and Ganondorf is capable of it. Adding Ganondorf's power to Rinoa's basically wins this. Even if they defeat him then, they lose Rinoa and have to fight Ganondorf without her, after the possessed Rinoa has weakened them all.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Not in giant head form, no. But he certainly interacted with Midna at some point.

And you're not doing the same thing?

This right here, for instance. It's a flat out guess. "We saw something happen, but it's obviously unrelated to the attack launched moments before." That is unsupported by all evidence, and argues against the evidence itself. Midna's attack was shown starting, and finishing, and we just saw the after effects. Ganondorf was not shown responding when the spear came down. He could not possibly have done anything before the attack landed, because we saw the attack landing.

If he countered the attack, that covers defeating Midna, destroying the castle, and taking the Fused Shadows.

Watch the video again, paying special attention to 6:35. You'll see one pulse of energy before the castle explodes. Just one. The are two options here: 1st, two attacks launched at once collided and destroyed the castle. 2nd, Midna's attack did nothing, and Ganondorf's counterattack destroyed the castle. There's a moment's delay between the pulse and the explosion, enough for a collision or a counterattack. We saw Midna attack first, so the pulse must be her attack or the collision. We didn't see Ganondorf launch an attack at the same time, though. This opens the possibility that Midna didn't have a hand in the castle's destruction and it was all Ganondorf. He might have dodged, he might not have (but see above), but it's now been all but confirmed that Ganondorf alone destroyed the castle.

Tiny featless meteors and against the rules summons? Whatever will Ganondorf do?

Yes. I've proven he destroyed the castle in Twilight Princess, and Ganondorf himself proved he could do so in Ocarina of Time. At the same time, he proved in both games that he can survive a castle collapsing on him. Durability? Check. Offense? Check.

Since we saw Midna finish her attack, it was presumably afterward. And then he destroyed them, the powerful evil artifacts that you spent half the damn game finding.

Being stabbed isn't impressive? Despite the fact that one of the FF8 party was nearly killed by a stab wound? To the chest, rather than the head like Ganondorf was? And Ganondorf was turned to stone in Wind Waker. In Ocarina of Time, getting stabbed through the skull simply incovienienced him.

So me being harmed wouldn't be depandent on me controlling the bomb, but a completely unrelated abily? You missed the point. Your argument is that Ganondorf survived the castle exploded because he was the one that did it, and he's immune to his own magic. This is clearly false. However, getting hit with his own magic has never caused Ganondorf significant damage. The only times it did sufficient damage to defeat him was when he possessed Zelda or Aganihm, which only proves that Zelda/Aganihm's body isn't as durable as Ganondorf's.

Possibly, he certainly took her fused shadows at some point and defeated her yes.

No, I am simply denying them because we dont see them happen, trying to narrow it down based on what you think is logically happening and then trying to put it off as fact to give Ganon a feat is wrong.

Whats a flat out guess? its the same as what your doing, its another suggesstion but sure its a guestimate just like anything assumed to have happened to dorf. It was shown finishing, not hitting anyone and the explosion happens after the attack finishes a few seconds after Link and Zelda appear. Ganondorf was not shown at all.

Not so unlikely as hes collapsed his own castles before and in the past "may" have been under his own power in the first place, like the flying castle.

Tiny? you know a rock does not have to be that large to make an impact on the earth, certainly not to kill someone. And point being, the summons and entities similiar to those summons are canonically beaten by this party.

I dont recall the OoT one, can you show me this plz? and being stabbed in the head or chest is irrelevant when your opponent is not just going to stop there.If he goes firehead form and reforms his physical body then I am sure they have some ice spells to cool him off.

no, I simply ignored the assertion your making that the spells used exploded like a bomb explodes and sort of countered the point indirectly to make the question irrelevant anyway. If hes the one that did it, that leaves room for him just collapsing it (he could have already beaten Midna and fled, collapsing it behind him) and theres still room for their combined forces to have collapsed the castle.

Sin posted a vid where Link launches back Ganons magic on the previous page, incapaiating him long enough for a light arrow shot.

So Ganondorf's possession ability is actually a viable game winner? Rinoa has shown vulnerability to possession, and Ganondorf is capable of it. Adding Ganondorf's power to Rinoa's basically wins this. Even if they defeat him then, they lose Rinoa and have to fight Ganondorf without her, after the possessed Rinoa has weakened them all.

Not really, she shows pretty high resistence to possession actually. When Ultimecia took over Edea she had complete control but when she took over Rinoa she went completely catatonic and only after, what, a week? did she actually do something, and even then its clear from the zombie lke movements that Rinoas fighting back. It should also be noted that quite alot of the possession took place alone with Squall, the person shes specifically trying to kill. If she could have killed him she would have.

Originally posted by The Scenario

Does that mean Zant and Aganihm are there, too?

Both use Ganon's power. Without it, they're nothing.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Not really. Rinoa can't be as powerful as Adel was, or no one except Ultimicia should have been able to stand up to her. Really, Squall should have just stayed home and let Rinoa handle things from that point on, if she were just as powerful as Adel.

If she went alone, the game would've ended once Time Compression came into effect.


No they can't.[B]

Ganon has been proven to be cut. Odin and Gilgamesh will cut him in half. Alexander's Holy Judgment creates a bunch of light beams that end in an explosion. That's more power than any Light Arrow I've seen.

Eden's attack is on par with some of the Limit Breaks in FF8

[B]
No he won't. Ganon would absorb it and become part light and part dark. He can do that you know. Because I said so and I don't need to back up anything I say.

Ganon could never do that. Light attacks have hurt Ganon as seen with the Light Arrows and that weak beam shot by Zelda in OoT.


Those didn't do any serious damage. They only caused him a bit of pain, but they didn't do anything close to defeating him. Limit Breaks may hurt a little, but that's about all you are going to get out of them.

An omnislash clone, Armageddon fist, enhanced-berserk magic state, armor-piercing lasers, an instant-KO attack, and an explosion dwarfing the power of Ultima are way better than a Megaton Hammer, an unbreakable sword, light arrows, and the Silver Arrows.


So?

That just proves that he isn't the god people are making appear to be.


Really? What have either of those two done, Hmm? Ultimicia can make spells from peoples minds, but that is about all she has on Ganon and quite frankly that isn't much. Let's not forget Time Compression, oh wait, it's completely useless because it needs a TON of preparation before it can do anything and so can't be used to win any sort of fight. Not to mention the fact that she can't even do it without Ellone and a machine!

Ganon never possessed minds across time or dimensions. I never seen any of creation of his that was anywhere as powerful as Omega Weapon. He never deflected arrows or froze people in place. Ganon also never sealed abilities.


Adel hasn't done ANYTHING. We know absolutely nothing about her. So no one, at one time, could stand up to her. Whoopty doo. GF wielders get beat by normal army men, so that's not anything special. Tell me, what has Adel done that Ganon hasn't? What puts her above him? You haven't been able to answer that very simple question yet.

Adel used magic that didn't consist of weak energy balls little tremor attacks. Normal army men would kill Link.

Ganon has been proven to be cut. Odin and Gilgamesh will cut him in half. Alexander's Holy Judgment creates a bunch of light beams that end in an explosion. That's more power than any Light Arrow I've seen.

...by Link, who is far stronger than any FF Party member.
It would do you well to remember.
Also, featless battle animations,
do not infer any canonical stations,
with more power than light arrows,
which with stunning power can harrow,
a man who shrugs off castle busters,
they're more than the party can muster.

An omnislash clone, Armageddon fist, enhanced-berserk magic state, armor-piercing lasers, an instant-KO attack, and an explosion dwarfing the power of Ultima are way better than a Megaton Hammer, an unbreakable sword, light arrows, and the Silver Arrows.

Because you say so?
I disagree, no.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Possibly, he certainly took her fused shadows at some point and defeated her yes.

Good.


No, I am simply denying them because we dont see them happen, trying to narrow it down based on what you think is logically happening and then trying to put it off as fact to give Ganon a feat is wrong.

All of the laws of physics are made with the process you described. The phenomenon is narrowed down and possibilities are eliminated until it becomes a theory or law accepted by the scientific community. They are treated as fact until new evidence proves them wrong, at which point a new theory or law is put forward and the process repeats.

This is my theory/law. You can accept it, or make a new one supported by evidence. We can eliminate one.


Whats a flat out guess? its the same as what your doing, its another suggesstion but sure its a guestimate just like anything assumed to have happened to dorf. It was shown finishing, not hitting anyone and the explosion happens after the attack finishes a few seconds after Link and Zelda appear. Ganondorf was not shown at all.

The evidence proved you wrong there. The attack finished with no interference, so Ganondorf doing anything before that point is debunked. Your theory was eliminated on these grounds.


Not so unlikely as hes collapsed his own castles before and in the past "may" have been under his own power in the first place, like the flying castle.

May have been. In this game, Ganondorf took over Hyrule Castle. In Ocarina of Time, he destroyed Hyrule Castle and put Ganon's Tower where it stood, albiet over a lake of magma. I doubt he has as much control, if any, over Hyrule Castle.


Tiny? you know a rock does not have to be that large to make an impact on the earth, certainly not to kill someone. And point being, the summons and entities similiar to those summons are canonically beaten by this party.

At the speed they moving in the video I watched (ignoring the fact that FF battle animations are unreliable) the meteors were maybe twice as large as a human and moving far too slow.


I dont recall the OoT one, can you show me this plz? and being stabbed in the head or chest is irrelevant when your opponent is not just going to stop there.If he goes firehead form and reforms his physical body then I am sure they have some ice spells to cool him off.

I've posted it before in this thread.

YouTube video

5:38 and 7:20
And that was with the Master Sword. It even started glowing.

Also, you're guessing that Ganon's giant head has a vulnerability to ice. Prove this, if possible.

no, I simply ignored the assertion your making that the spells used exploded like a bomb explodes and sort of countered the point indirectly to make the question irrelevant anyway. If hes the one that did it, that leaves room for him just collapsing it (he could have already beaten Midna and fled, collapsing it behind him) and theres still room for their combined forces to have collapsed the castle.

Not an assertion; more of a comparison. "I cast the spell therefore I am immune to it's effects" is the same as saying "I built the bomb therefore I am immune to it's effects." Besides, you still dodged the point. Removing intangibility from the equation, Ganondorf is not immune to his own magic and a magical explosion and exploding castle would affect him.

Both guesses already eliminated.


Sin posted a vid where Link launches back Ganons magic on the previous page, incapaiating him long enough for a light arrow shot.

Niether of which caused significant damage, if any. Ganondorf's not immune to his own magic, but his durability is good enough to not take damage. He was stunned, not harmed. Also, different spells.

edit: Nice, Scream.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Good.

All of the laws of physics are made with the process you described. The phenomenon is narrowed down and possibilities are eliminated until it becomes a theory or law accepted by the scientific community. They are treated as fact until new evidence proves them wrong, at which point a new theory or law is put forward and the process repeats.

This is my theory/law. You can accept it, or make a new one supported by evidence. We can eliminate one.

The evidence proved you wrong there. The attack finished with no interference, so Ganondorf doing anything before that point is debunked. Your theory was eliminated on these grounds.

May have been. In this game, Ganondorf took over Hyrule Castle. In Ocarina of Time, he destroyed Hyrule Castle and put Ganon's Tower where it stood, albiet over a lake of magma. I doubt he has as much control, if any, over Hyrule Castle.

At the speed they moving in the video I watched (ignoring the fact that FF battle animations are unreliable) the meteors were maybe twice as large as a human and moving far too slow.

I've posted it before in this thread.

YouTube video

5:38 and 7:20
And that was with the Master Sword. It even started glowing.

Also, you're guessing that Ganon's giant head has a vulnerability to ice. Prove this, if possible.

Not an assertion; more of a comparison. "I cast the spell therefore I am immune to it's effects" is the same as saying "I built the bomb therefore I am immune to it's effects." Besides, you still dodged the point. Removing intangibility from the equation, Ganondorf is not immune to his own magic and a magical explosion and exploding castle would affect him.

Both guesses already eliminated.

Niether of which caused significant damage, if any. Ganondorf's not immune to his own magic, but his durability is good enough to not take damage. He was stunned, not harmed. Also, different spells.

edit: Nice, Scream.

Process I described by scientists who actually take "facts" as they know them in the real world. Their not filling in gaps with guestimates.

yes may have been.

As you said, old graphics, battle animations etc, their still meteors.

He was defeated at that point 🙄

Ganons head is fiery, fire extinguished by ice/water spells.

Once again, assuming the assertion that the magic create a shockwave of force to topple the castle instead of direct damage or w/e. Piling guestimates does not make facts.

neither were elminated, theres a good few seconds before the castle explodes. Either of the things I stated can happen in that time.

He was writhing in pain in the air, I wouldnt say he was unharmed he was just not physically damaged.

Further proof that the forms of Ganon have different feats: Beatie took slashes and a stab to the head and is still partially functioning. Two Dorfs get stabbed in the head or get once and are finished.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Process I described by scientists who actually take "facts" as they know them in the real world. Their not filling in gaps with guestimates.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/theory
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/fact
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/scientific+law

"facts" as they are known to scientists in the real world are consistent events which happen every time. We only have one instance, not enough for a law, but more than enough for a theory. Theories are still commonly accepted as fact because they are supported by evidence and there is nothing that proves them wrong. That's the situation here.
Filling in with guestimates is what is commonly known as a "hypothesis" and they are just as important as observation and experimentation.

We simply have conflicting styles. While I am more "Here's what I think happened, and here's the evidence to support it," your style is more, "this might happened, too. Prove me wrong."


As you said, old graphics, battle animations etc, their still meteors.

I said no such thing. Graphics had nothing to do with that scene. It was simply an unreliable animation on the same order of Sephiroth destroying the the same solar system upwards of five times in a single fight. Absolutely nothing can be taken from the scene and hope to be even slightly accurate.


He was defeated at that point 🙄

Sealed, and still alive and healthy. Squall was stabbed by an icicle and nearly died. Ganondorf was stunned.


Ganons head is fiery, fire extinguished by ice/water spells.

That's still an unsupported guess. What proof is there that it is fire? It barely looks similar. It doesn't burn anything. All it it has done is blow up a castle (without any fire being used.)


Once again, assuming the assertion that the magic create a shockwave of force to topple the castle instead of direct damage or w/e. Piling guestimates does not make facts.

What are you talking about? I never said anything to that effect. If you're still trying to connect magic and a bomb beyond simply simile, it's not what I implied. And "assuming the assertion" makes very little sense. It shouldn't matter if it was shockwave or direct damage (I never used either phrase), there was an explosion that Ganondorf was in the middle of.


neither were elminated, theres a good few seconds before the castle explodes. Either of the things I stated can happen in that time.

He couldn't have beaten Midna before, as we saw her attack finish. Eliminated. If it was combined forces, there wouldn't have been the delay between the pulse and explosion. Eliminated.


He was writhing in pain in the air, I wouldnt say he was unharmed he was just not physically damaged.

That's exactly what I said. No significant damage.

Further proof that the forms of Ganon have different feats: Beatie took slashes and a stab to the head and is still partially functioning. Two Dorfs get stabbed in the head or get once and are finished.

Beastie reverted to Gerudo upon sealing.