FF8 Party v.s. Ganondorf

Started by The Scenario40 pages
Originally posted by Burning thought
As I said, prove that this weapon designed to kill him is the only one that "can" harm him? you cant, because its never happened and Ganons never shown resistant to other weapons. And your using gameplay mechanics now? shame...

You say we can't when you've not played the game
You've really no room to make that claim
Try the Oracles games special ending together
Without Master Sword you might as well use a feather
No damage is possible you know
Without a magical spin attack blow


Also Links not got the only magic weapon in fiction, the FF8 party have far more magic powers and weapons at their disposal than a sword.

Like what? Name a few
That is, if you can
Istead of claiming they do
Prove it please, man


Featless ganon gets shredded as hes not shown to be resistant.

Proven resistant and more
This is what you can't ignore
Now I must ask of you
Prove the party's resistence, name a few


I see, so apprently its common sense midna struck Ganon who was intangible anyway and despite Ganon defeating midna the blast we see outside the castle is certainly midnas? despite the strike we see making no large flashes or tremurs....

I thought his flaming (spirit) head
Wasn't intangible, as you said
The blast was not Midna as we told you
Just the pulse and flash of light
Castle was destroyed by Ganon's might


your unfounded claims and guesses dont make fact.

Niether do yours, so stop it, please
We've provided proof for these


And using the MS Ganon is defeated over and over, oh and megaton hammer/biggorons sword when Link has no MS in OoT.

Now you use game mechanics to make Ganon look bad
In canon niether is used, so stop with this fad
Light Arrows are there and they are used, too
But canon has none of them used, so what can you do?


Its never going to be agreed that midna struck dorf and he survived the attack because thats simply not whats shown or even implied.

Not implied, art thou mad?
Have you watched the scene?
She thrusts a spear at his head, egad
And caused a flash, just a bit rad


You cant prove this at all, Ganons not stood unharmed against a normal sword either...

Normal and Noble (a magical one)
Failed to harm him in ressurection half done
At less than half strenth and not quite sane
Blades bounce off his skin, if not his bane


Ganons not fast enough and he has being disinegrated by holy and meteors to contend with.

Back up this claim, as you have us do
The burden of proof falls on you
Light Arrows and magic merely stun
Holy and meteor will only be fun


Ganons intangibility is beaten by light which is what meteors give off, hence the bright shining trail behind them. The fact their fairly large in FF sort of puts Ganon to rest quite easily.

Read over again, bright light you need
And consistent, too, mere flashes won't heed
And if you could prove this please
Size and speed and light for my ease


Counts as a defeat if he has to make another body, the FF party will be eliminating him over and over again although I am not sure if they have soul powers or those to trap him.

By the rules if he does so in a timely manner
He gets to return under his banner
I doubt they could put him down even once
But if by some miracle, Ganon's no dunce
They'll be tired and damaged when he returns
All the easier to kill as he yearns


You call it flame because thats what it appears to be, just like according to you it "appears" that midna is making an attack. I agree with both things, as well as with Ganon having a fiery head form.

That's your claim? It's quite hard to see
Estimating composition vs. what's given free
The evidence points to lack of fire
As it also points to Midna's ire


You claim its more spirit based on what grounds? its a fiery head as you yourself claimed and now its apprently "more spirit" and cannot be harmed because you want Ganondorf to survive 🙄 and your proof is a ball of shimmering mud? "sigh"

I claim spirit based on floating around
And as Ganon says, it's power unbound
My proof is the lack of firey feats
And engulfing Zant when Ganon he meets
You made a claim unbacked and odd
I responded with what Zant called God


I see, your assuming its midnas strike based on what you see (seems I cant do that with Ganondorf) even though its obviously not her strike as theres a tremur before the castle explodes, this tremur does not happen when we see he strike, infact nothing happens apart from a very small flash of light. I think its more logical and supported that this was more likely Ganons counter.

Quite obvious, you just don't understand
Midna's pulse of light was her brand
The tremor and burst was all Ganon
This is my evidence, supported by canon
Midna did nothing to harm the king
While Ganon fought back and crushed the thing


Cant see? yes they can, as I said they have a lot of light spells or those that create it and as for not being able to harm, your making the assumption he can fight and use powers while intangible and that he can stay in this form for long durations. This is never founded as he appears continually in your video when he wants to strike.

I've shown you the video many a time
Yet this claim suggests you ignore my rhyme
Throughout the battle he fights in that state
And quick flashes of light will not abate
Consistent, bright light, is needed I've told
And Ganon doesn't appear after Darkness in hold


They can aim, predict and shoot their huge light powers in all directions if they reall have to, not that they will, a few fireballs and slow Ganon will be quite easy meat, pummled with meteors and holy or just sliced like kibble.

Prove this, can they hold it for long?
Or produce enough light or even be strong?
From what I have seen, none is true
Ganon's resistance is proven on cue

Originally posted by The Scenario
You say we can't when you've not played the game
You've really no room to make that claim
Try the Oracles games special ending together
Without Master Sword you might as well use a feather
No damage is possible you know
Without a magical spin attack blow

Like what? Name a few
That is, if you can
Istead of claiming they do
Prove it please, man

Proven resistant and more
This is what you can't ignore
Now I must ask of you
Prove the party's resistence, name a few

I thought his flaming (spirit) head
Wasn't intangible, as you said
The blast was not Midna as we told you
Just the pulse and flash of light
Castle was destroyed by Ganon's might

Niether do yours, so stop it, please
We've provided proof for these

Now you use game mechanics to make Ganon look bad
In canon niether is used, so stop with this fad
Light Arrows are there and they are used, too
But canon has none of them used, so what can you do?

Not implied, art thou mad?
Have you watched the scene?
She thrusts a spear at his head, egad
And caused a flash, just a bit rad

Normal and Noble (a magical one)
Failed to harm him in ressurection half done
At less than half strenth and not quite sane
Blades bounce off his skin, if not his bane

Back up this claim, as you have us do
The burden of proof falls on you
Light Arrows and magic merely stun
Holy and meteor will only be fun

Read over again, bright light you need
And consistent, too, mere flashes won't heed
And if you could prove this please
Size and speed and light for my ease

By the rules if he does so in a timely manner
He gets to return under his banner
I doubt they could put him down even once
But if by some miracle, Ganon's no dunce
They'll be tired and damaged when he returns
All the easier to kill as he yearns

That's your claim? It's quite hard to see
Estimating composition vs. what's given free
The evidence points to lack of fire
As it also points to Midna's ire

I claim spirit based on floating around
And as Ganon says, it's power unbound
My proof is the lack of firey feats
And engulfing Zant when Ganon he meets
You made a claim unbacked and odd
I responded with what Zant called God

Quite obvious, you just don't understand
Midna's pulse of light was her brand
The tremor and burst was all Ganon
This is my evidence, supported by canon
Midna did nothing to harm the king
While Ganon fought back and crushed the thing

I've shown you the video many a time
Yet this claim suggests you ignore my rhyme
Throughout the battle he fights in that state
And quick flashes of light will not abate
Consistent, bright light, is needed I've told
And Ganon doesn't appear after Darkness in hold

Prove this, can they hold it for long?
Or produce enough light or even be strong?
From what I have seen, none is true
Ganon's resistance is proven on cue

Youve not done it in all the arguments we have had so I think I have pretty good grounds to either claim you cant do it, OR your knowledge on your own universe is pretty hazy. The gameplay of one game is your evidence?

All their spells and materia.

Hes not proven resistant at all...against anything tbh, hes been shown to be endurant by surviving impalement but his body seems to be sliced like butter no less.

Its a ball of fire, a blastwave assuming one hit him would not have necesserily bothered him at all, certainly not damaged him. Theres no "we", only you who thinks thats who made the blast and so do I, but that does not make a feat in any case.

Youve provided no proof, only your assumptions based on what you see. You seem to belive your opinion on a scene is fact now? lol...

Its canon storyline that Ganon was defeated without the master sword as link did not have it....sorry but Ganon is damn vulnerable lol.

She thrusts a spear at him therefore its implied his fiery/intangible form took a hit? or that its implied the force of that castle exploding hit him too? none of that is implied at all, infact the reverse because Ganon wins the fight.

Show me him not being harmed by a normal weapon...

light arrows are featless little shafts that in comparison to holy which is an enormous orb of energy pretty redundant. And stun? those little shafts make him wail in pain like a lawn mowed toad, holy would kill him from shock alone. The evidence of this is in the fact that meteors are huge, powerful rocks moving at speed and lots of them, one would crush Ganondorf and turn him into piecies and holy is far more powerful than that meteor spell.

More than enough light in the 3 spells here:

YouTube video

And they wont need him "consistently" visible to destroy him, only for the duration of some of their light based spells that they could constantly cast assuming the first does not kill him.

"shrug" he is still defeated, and what do you propose would make them "tired" and damaged? they have healing spells as well assuming he gets a chance to harm them at all.

No evidence points to lack of fire, he appears to be a burning head. You didnt counter me here....

😆 Ganons floating therefore its certainly more spiritual than his appearance which is fiery? 🙄

I have yet to see the fiery head absorb/engulf Zant, only what looks like a ball of shimerring mud.

Oh I see, finally agree its more likely Ganon did all the damage here...

Explain to me why we keep seeing him re-apear every time he uses at attack?

See the video above, theres more than enough light and power there.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Gameplay mechanics? How is that so?
All those examples where movie scenes you know.
And backed by the plot, I think I might say
There's no way your making these points go away.

By "far above" I'm talking of the weapons they equip.
From gunblades to fists to guns and even a whip.
All ordinary weapons, not even the same
As a holy powered blade of evils bane.

The gunblade is nothing but a sword with a gun
That doesn't even shoot, which isn't much fun.
The weapons used to defeat Ganon are of a special make
And even they sometimes fail at the task they undertake.

The Sword of Sages didn't seem to do it's job well
When it was used to try and send Ganon to hell.
Even the Master Sword when with out the sages backing
Was found against Ganon to be particularly lacking.

No reason you say? I must disagree.
We gave reasons quite plentifully.
If Light Arrows stun but can't land a kill
What reasoning do you use to assume Holy will?

When did I say that? Don't tell me what I said.
I NEVER said these powers could make Ganon dead.
But regardless it's all irrelevant anyway.
For player customizable content just can't come into play.

What's gameplay mechanics? You can't just throw that title around.
There are no examples of gameplay mechanics anywhere to be found.
And Ganon deflects them, Just look at WW if you please.
The Sword bounces right off with ease.

Sometimes they cut him and sometimes they don't
But the one thing that is consistent is these weapons simply wont
Finish him off. Yes that cannot be denied.
With anything else Ganon simply has never died.

In Wind Waker the sword was not at full might
And they found that they were in quite a plight.
For they could not defeat Ganon unless power was restored
To the blade of evils bane, none other than the Master Sword.

This obviously shows that Ganon cannot be destroyed
By ordinary weapons, when used against him he only get's annoyed.
The evidence is overwhelming, the case has been made.
There would be no hope of damage with the Gunblade.

Nobody has shown me a movie based scene where Ganon is struck by another weapon and is not even damaged.

You just made a claim that their far above again.....please stop just making claims and go and get some proof?

A "special" make? what was so special about its make? my knowledge is stronger on other FF games but on FF8 I dont know exactly where the gunblade came from but its hardly your average sword and his limit breaks and other moves see him put some powers into it...its not just a lump of metal...

Because light arrows are tiny arrows which apart from being effective against Ganon have no feats pretty much like Holy, difference being holy has feats in FF7 which indicate its strength and its overall power in the game is beyond powers we can gauge, such as meteor for example. And that example is not "reasons a plenty", its hardly a reason at all.

The fact your trying pretty hard to avoid argueing against the spells themselves and would rather point out their not unique to each character. iirc Rinoi does have some canon powers and apprently has the powers of adel and another sorceress.

A mechanic for the gameplay, for this case the mechanic is only using particulour weapons. In OoT Link could use anything other than the MS while he did not hold it and still bested Ganon lol....and show me the WW video for proof, I am not finding your own evidence for you thanks 😉

Cant finish him off? what grounds do you claim this on? ive not seen anyone attempt to slice him into little bits yet....

Their only powerful sword has little power therefore Ganon is immune to all other weapons? no that does not make sense at all.

See the video above, theres more than enough light and power there.

A silly set of battle animations, lacking true power,
will not hurt Ganon after any amount of hours.
Ganon has feats, showing high durability.
Looking cool in battle is a useless ability.

Those powers lack any substance,
which Ganon has in abundance.
They lack true divine might,
and will not help in this fight.

It's as far as possible from right,
to compare them to divine light.

Not really "silly", their quite clear. Ones a meteor shower, meteors would rip Ganon into piecies so all this "will not hurt Ganon" BS is just fanon, but I knew that already, as is the high durability joke.

Although the FF8 holy may not have feats (I wouldnt know, Sin probabily does) we know its stronger than the meteors and possibly just as, if not more effective as it uses holy power. holy/good power>Ganons evil.

And something being divine is irrelevant, a power does not have to come from any deity (especially not weak ones like the Godesses) to be effective.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Nobody has shown me a movie based scene where Ganon is struck by another weapon and is not even damaged.

Why didn't you say so? All you had to do was ask.
I'll find the video showing this task.
Here, in Wind Waker you can obviously find
The proof that you had in mind.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjFRr6e1QsM

Aside from the video pay very close attention to the type.
Pause right at 1:20, if you would like.
Or if you would like I'll just copy it here
To fight Ganon, Link does not have the proper gear.

"You CANNOT DEFEAT ME with a blade that does not sparkle with the power to repel evil! What you hold is USELESS!"

There is your proof, I have proven my stance.
Accept it now, as this is your last chance.
Any more defiance of this powerful tool
Is useless and will only result in you looking the fool.

If the video isn't enough, even though it obviously should be
Ganon right out says exactly what you heard from me.
Ordinary weapons won't be enough.
If it's Ganon you are looking to snuff.

With that video there are also more
But I KNOW that you've seen them before.
As they've been posted on this thread from time to time.
And watching them, the same evidence we all find.

In TP he gets stabbed and takes it like it was a scratch
In OoT he takes it to the head and but a new plan they must hatch.
As it does not kill him, they needed to lock him away
But Squall would go down with one stab at the end of the day.

Originally posted by Burning thought
You just made a claim that their far above again.....please stop just making claims and go and get some proof?

A "special" make? what was so special about its make? my knowledge is stronger on other FF games but on FF8 I dont know exactly where the gunblade came from but its hardly your average sword and his limit breaks and other moves see him put some powers into it...its not just a lump of metal...

Proof? The proof is right there, look at the data we've got
The MS is magical, the Gunblade is not.
How is this not a more powerful blade
When designed to destroy evil was how it was made.

The Gunblade is nothing but metal, that's all.
It's an interesting weapon, but compared to the MS it would fall.
There is nothing special about it, it's a regular lump of steel
No matter how attached to the FF party you feel.

The Gunblade is normal, sorry you had to hear it from me.
And wishing and whining won't change history.
Ganon doesn't die from MAGICAL swords, yes that's right
So the Gunblade is a useless trinket to bring to this fight.

Yet you sit and claim that Ganon would fall
To a pathetic rocky ball.
Well I've supplied evidence, so now it's your turn.
What makes you think meteor would make Ganon burn?

And though I shouldn't have to say it, I will anyway
You must bring actual evidence, you cannot just say
"Meteor kills Ganon, just because I said so."
Even though, so far, that's the only path you've been willing to go.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Because light arrows are tiny arrows which apart from being effective against Ganon have no feats pretty much like Holy, difference being holy has feats in FF7 which indicate its strength and its overall power in the game is beyond powers we can gauge, such as meteor for example. And that example is not "reasons a plenty", its hardly a reason at all.

Light Arrows are canonly one of the strongest Arrows anywhere ever
You are really going to have to find something better.
And I cannot believe you would actually try
Claiming FF8's Holy is the same as FF7, but that's a lie.

Are you seriously basing all of your knowledge
Off a completely different game? Your desperation is solid.
You cannot prove anything of a spell
taken from a completely different game, dude, what the hell?

Originally posted by Burning thought
The fact your trying pretty hard to avoid argueing against the spells themselves and would rather point out their not unique to each character. iirc Rinoi does have some canon powers and apprently has the powers of adel and another sorceress.

Frankly you simply don't have a case
To claim what you claim, there isn't a base.
On top of that, it's a waste of time in the end
As trying to prove the spells work wouldn't even help you, my friend.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Cant finish him off? what grounds do you claim this on? ive not seen anyone attempt to slice him into little bits yet....

BT, this entire post I have been providing
all of these things, you need to stop hiding.
There have been videos, and explanations, and all sorts of proof
The evidence for my side is way through the roof.

I know you have seen them, they've been posted all through this.
And I have one there, if all of them you really DID miss.
Ganon takes swords through the gut, head and such
Squall on the other hand... uh, not so much.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Why didn't you say so? All you had to do was ask.
I'll find the video showing this task.
Here, in Wind Waker you can obviously find
The proof that you had in mind.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjFRr6e1QsM

Aside from the video pay very close attention to the type.
Pause right at 1:20, if you would like.
Or if you would like I'll just copy it here
To fight Ganon, Link does not have the proper gear.

"You [B]CANNOT DEFEAT ME with a blade that does not sparkle with the power to repel evil! What you hold is USELESS!"

There is your proof, I have proven my stance.
Accept it now, as this is your last chance.
Any more defiance of this powerful tool
Is useless and will only result in you looking the fool.

If the video isn't enough, even though it obviously should be
Ganon right out says exactly what you heard from me.
Ordinary weapons won't be enough.
If it's Ganon you are looking to snuff.

With that video there are also more
But I KNOW that you've seen them before.
As they've been posted on this thread from time to time.
And watching them, the same evidence we all find.

In TP he gets stabbed and takes it like it was a scratch
In OoT he takes it to the head and but a new plan they must hatch.
As it does not kill him, they needed to lock him away
But Squall would go down with one stab at the end of the day.

Proof? The proof is right there, look at the data we've got
The MS is magical, the Gunblade is not.
How is this not a more powerful blade
When designed to destroy evil was how it was made.

The Gunblade is nothing but metal, that's all.
It's an interesting weapon, but compared to the MS it would fall.
There is nothing special about it, it's a regular lump of steel
No matter how attached to the FF party you feel.

The Gunblade is normal, sorry you had to hear it from me.
And wishing and whining won't change history.
Ganon doesn't die from MAGICAL swords, yes that's right
So the Gunblade is a useless trinket to bring to this fight.

Yet you sit and claim that Ganon would fall
To a pathetic rocky ball.
Well I've supplied evidence, so now it's your turn.
What makes you think meteor would make Ganon burn?

And though I shouldn't have to say it, I will anyway
You must bring actual evidence, you cannot just say
"Meteor kills Ganon, just because I said so."
Even though, so far, that's the only path you've been willing to go.

Light Arrows are canonly one of the strongest Arrows anywhere ever
You are really going to have to find something better.
And I cannot believe you would actually try
Claiming FF8's Holy is the same as FF7, but that's a lie.

Are you seriously basing all of your knowledge
Off a completely different game? Your desperation is solid.
You cannot prove anything of a spell
taken from a completely different game, dude, what the hell?

Frankly you simply don't have a case
To claim what you claim, there isn't a base.
On top of that, it's a waste of time in the end
As trying to prove the spells work wouldn't even help you, my friend.

BT, this entire post I have been providing
all of these things, you need to stop hiding.
There have been videos, and explanations, and all sorts of proof
The evidence for my side is way through the roof.

I know you have seen them, they've been posted all through this.
And I have one there, if all of them you really DID miss.
Ganon takes swords through the gut, head and such
Squall on the other hand... uh, not so much. [/B]

Thats not a feat, thats a fallible statement with its root deep within no limit fallacies. Also he says Link cannot defeat him, no mension of anyone else.

Youve proven your basis is a crumbling mountain of fallacious garbage with a coating of irrelevence to boot.

They dont need to kill him in one stab, they only need to slice him into piecies afterwards so he cannot do a thing but attempt to reform (if he can).

Because its few real feats, its got some flawed statements by fallible entities. And since when is being magical a basis for being powerful? just because its not magical (a lot of squalls attack have him putting some form of energy in the blade so I am not sure why your calling it normal) does not mean it cant slash through Ganon like butter just as easily.

Becuase Ganon has never survived anything of the like, he is sliced like butter by swords and has no feats to suggest he is resistant at all. A meteor would gib him.

I am using the lack of feats of Ganon to dissolve you, and its been working well since the beginning mainly because Ganon has few real feats 😉

😆 canonically strongest arrows anywhere ever? what a sad little rhyme and pretty ignorant.

My argument is based on a lack of feats from Ganon, Holy is stronger than meteor>Ganon.

Ganon does not take them, he gets sliced through. He survives but as I said, hes never been cut into little pieices or had his limbs amputated. hes going to have to reform if he hopes to survive against the FF team just using swords. Ofc their going to be using spells, and blow him to bits over and over, if holies pure magic does not kill him permanently ofc.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Youve not done it in all the arguments we have had so I think I have pretty good grounds to either claim you cant do it, OR your knowledge on your own universe is pretty hazy. The gameplay of one game is your evidence?

I do it every single time we debate
You've already forgotten in this blind hate?
Fine, let's try again, in Ocarina of Time
Hyrule castle collapses and Ganondorf's fine


All their spells and materia.

You haven't answered my question at all
Stop avoiding the subject and prove or fall
Is that Materia canon, or just a mechanic?
Prove it in cutscene and try not to panic


Hes not proven resistant at all...against anything tbh, hes been shown to be endurant by surviving impalement but his body seems to be sliced like butter no less.

By holy blades of light, no less
And they haven't killed him yet, oh yes
But Ganon remains unharmed by fire
From a dragon god and a castle's expire


Its a ball of fire, a blastwave assuming one hit him would not have necesserily bothered him at all, certainly not damaged him. Theres no "we", only you who thinks thats who made the blast and so do I, but that does not make a feat in any case.

It's not a feat, Midna failed
Harming Ganon derailed
Assuming the attack succeeded
Ganon still rose unheeded


Youve provided no proof, only your assumptions based on what you see. You seem to belive your opinion on a scene is fact now? lol...

As have you, so drop the claim
Water on Ganon is a guessing game
Your assumptions are not fact
At least my claims have been backed


Its canon storyline that Ganon was defeated without the master sword as link did not have it....sorry but Ganon is damn vulnerable lol.

That's not what happened at all
Pay attention or risk a fall
Link caused Ganon to lower the fire
To recover that Blade to evil dire
Canon doesn't say how, but mechanics do
But the Light Arrows were there, too


She thrusts a spear at him therefore its implied his fiery/intangible form took a hit? or that its implied the force of that castle exploding hit him too? none of that is implied at all, infact the reverse because Ganon wins the fight.

Yes, indeed, can't you see?
It's implied an attack was made to be
The attack failed is what is fact
It was Midna who's power lacked


Show me him not being harmed by a normal weapon...

YouTube video

I'll do you two better, 1:11 there
How the depowered Master Sword will fare
Don't say it didn't hit, the sound was clear
That Sword struck something here
Then see what Ganon says, Link cannot win
With a blade of no power, he's screwed and then
See 3:05, where Valoo takes charge
And torched down Ganon's little barge

Still...it is too soon for us to relax. Ganon cannot be destroyed by such simple means as wrath and fire.

Valoo's words, translated here
I thought you might like to read them clear

YouTube video

Just in case you forgot
Here's the castle he's got
Collapsed form 0:10-1:54
Not enough to put Ganon on the floor


light arrows are featless little shafts that in comparison to holy which is an enormous orb of energy pretty redundant. And stun? those little shafts make him wail in pain like a lawn mowed toad, holy would kill him from shock alone. The evidence of this is in the fact that meteors are huge, powerful rocks moving at speed and lots of them, one would crush Ganondorf and turn him into piecies and holy is far more powerful than that meteor spell.

YouTube video

Featless? Oh, no, I've shown you before
Disintegrated in cutscene, and is no more
Look at 1:40 and say Holy will win
When Holy is featless, as is Meteor then
Stop making claims you've left unproved
When the evidence I have says Ganon's unmoved


More than enough light in the 3 spells here:

Again, battle animations are worthless here
None of that's canon, not even near
Prove in a cutscene like you love so much
Then I might believe you're not making up such


And they wont need him "consistently" visible to destroy him, only for the duration of some of their light based spells that they could constantly cast assuming the first does not kill him.

But they can't see or hit his body
And as I said, quick flashes are too shoddy
Please prove they can cast constantly
And provide cast time for all to see


"shrug" he is still defeated, and what do you propose would make them "tired" and damaged? they have healing spells as well assuming he gets a chance to harm them at all.

Prove they can heal, if you can
Also cast time as above in scan


No evidence points to lack of fire, he appears to be a burning head. You didnt counter me here....

Don't ignore evidence, it's right there
Regardless, I won't continue this fare
Don't take it as concession, I know you will
I just don't want to point out proof still


😆 Ganons floating therefore its certainly more spiritual than his appearance which is fiery? 🙄

Yes, indeed, though I suggest
You drop the point, give it a rest


I have yet to see the fiery head absorb/engulf Zant, only what looks like a ball of shimerring mud.

It's not fire if you don't want it be?
I can't believe that's what you see
This entire area is pointless, though
Ganon kills the party before his head needs to show


Oh I see, finally agree its more likely Ganon did all the damage here...

All right! Offensive success
The party's durability for that is far less


Explain to me why we keep seeing him re-apear every time he uses at attack?

YouTube video

At 2:07 I don't see him reappear
That's only when the torches leer
When there's no light he can't be hit
So really, that's all there is to it


See the video above, theres more than enough light and power there.

None in canon that I see
Just battle animations it must be
No canon power, no canon speed
You should prove it's what they need

About the Master Sword, can it still be used as a weapon when depowered or is it just a piece of crap?

Poems stretching the page :/

The MS is just a normal sword when depowered, maybe worse (??)

Originally posted by Sin_Volvagia
About the Master Sword, can it still be used as a weapon when depowered or is it just a piece of crap?

Piece of crap is a relative term.
It still makes othes look like worms.
It loses much of it's strength,
but withstands time of any length.
It cannot be broken by physical twists.
In that scene power bracers clothe Link's wrists.

Can still hold together seals of magic.
Note Ganon's monologue reads tragic.

Originally posted by The Scenario
I do it every single time we debate
You've already forgotten in this blind hate?
Fine, let's try again, in Ocarina of Time
Hyrule castle collapses and Ganondorf's fine

You haven't answered my question at all
Stop avoiding the subject and prove or fall
Is that Materia canon, or just a mechanic?
Prove it in cutscene and try not to panic

By holy blades of light, no less
And they haven't killed him yet, oh yes
But Ganon remains unharmed by fire
From a dragon god and a castle's expire

It's not a feat, Midna failed
Harming Ganon derailed
Assuming the attack succeeded
Ganon still rose unheeded

As have you, so drop the claim
Water on Ganon is a guessing game
Your assumptions are not fact
At least my claims have been backed

That's not what happened at all
Pay attention or risk a fall
Link caused Ganon to lower the fire
To recover that Blade to evil dire
Canon doesn't say how, but mechanics do
But the Light Arrows were there, too

Yes, indeed, can't you see?
It's implied an attack was made to be
The attack failed is what is fact
It was Midna who's power lacked

YouTube video

I'll do you two better, 1:11 there
How the depowered Master Sword will fare
Don't say it didn't hit, the sound was clear
That Sword struck something here
Then see what Ganon says, Link cannot win
With a blade of no power, he's screwed and then
See 3:05, where Valoo takes charge
And torched down Ganon's little barge

Valoo's words, translated here
I thought you might like to read them clear

YouTube video

Just in case you forgot
Here's the castle he's got
Collapsed form 0:10-1:54
Not enough to put Ganon on the floor

YouTube video

Featless? Oh, no, I've shown you before
Disintegrated in cutscene, and is no more
Look at 1:40 and say Holy will win
When Holy is featless, as is Meteor then
Stop making claims you've left unproved
When the evidence I have says Ganon's unmoved

Again, battle animations are worthless here
None of that's canon, not even near
Prove in a cutscene like you love so much
Then I might believe you're not making up such

But they can't see or hit his body
And as I said, quick flashes are too shoddy
Please prove they can cast constantly
And provide cast time for all to see

Prove they can heal, if you can
Also cast time as above in scan

Don't ignore evidence, it's right there
Regardless, I won't continue this fare
Don't take it as concession, I know you will
I just don't want to point out proof still

Yes, indeed, though I suggest
You drop the point, give it a rest

It's not fire if you don't want it be?
I can't believe that's what you see
This entire area is pointless, though
Ganon kills the party before his head needs to show

All right! Offensive success
The party's durability for that is far less

YouTube video

At 2:07 I don't see him reappear
That's only when the torches leer
When there's no light he can't be hit
So really, that's all there is to it

None in canon that I see
Just battle animations it must be
No canon power, no canon speed
You should prove it's what they need

Normal people have survivied rubble collapses and being buried. This does not make them durable or resistant.

You never asked if materia was canon or not, you simply asked what powers they have. The ability to summon meteors, holy and other spells that are in the game is among them. Not sure if the actual materia itself is canon or if in the canon sorcerors can simply cast spells without materia.

Hes got fire resistance, that much I have already given him. no other feat so far.....

Glad we agree, no feat.

My claims are backed by the same evidence as yours.

Fact is, Ganon was temporarily defeated without the MS, he was weakened enough without "evils bane" to drop in power. He could not even hold up a firewall.....

her power lacked, her power could not hit Ganon, she was too slow, etc. We can only factually claim she was not up to the task.

Sorry but we dont see anything hit kinda like the midna scene lol, LoZ like doing this, we dont see the scene and it would be nice for you to point out that Ganon also has a sword...

As I said, normal people can be survived being buried under rubble and from a lot more chatoic damagic than that, since that castle seemed to fall apart in large piecies, e.g. a whole tower fell almost solid, then another. We only see a few blocks over Ganondorf, I would be very surprised if he was dead.

What resistance has that phantom thing that he shot shown? and a meteor is not featless....its a large lump of fast rock moving at great speed, lots of them. Holy is featless afaik, but its stronger than the meteors so we have a gauge at least.

Battle animations are just as static as any cutscene, their not player controlled. Back up your claims that battle animations are actually irrelevant first. The spells are what they are, saying their animations is not the same the gameplay mechanics 😉

I just showed you cast time of meteor and holy, the two I belive they will use. If you want to argue about how often they can cast then I am not sure, not sure I have seen Ganon cast many powers himself either. Considering he cannot even hold up a fire ring after being beaten up by a boy without evils bane I cant see him casting more than once or twice.

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_Final_Fantasy_VIII_Spells

Cure, Curage, Full life. They can revive and heal using the magic.

YouTube video

Vid is self explanatory.

Why would I drop the point after you just tried to speak against me claiming its fiery (after you did) based on appearances then you claim its spiritual more so because its floating.... 🙄

Kills the party with what? so far I have not seen anything powerful from him, whats he going to do? slowly teleport towards his opponents and try and hit people who can shield themselves, blast him to piecies and heal if necessery using the spells I listed? hes a fool if he even tries.

It looks like light cancels out his darkness technique completly and he has to recast. One fireball and his technique is useless lol..let alone a huge flash of light like holy.

😆 such a hypocrite, your sitting there whining and wailing about how battle animations cannot be used yet your using combat animations in the vid directly above to try and claim Ganon can remain invisible...

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Piece of crap is a relative term.
It still makes othes look like worms.
It loses much of it's strength,
but withstands time of any length.
It cannot be broken by physical twists.
In that scene power bracers clothe Link's wrists.

Can still hold together seals of magic.
Note Ganon's monologue reads tragic.

Is it sharp?

Originally posted by Sin_Volvagia
Is it sharp?

Is it sharp? Definitely yes.
It's required to cause much death.
Slaying bosses, while depowered,
leaving enemies moods quite soured.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Is it sharp? Definitely yes.
It's required to cause much death.
Slaying bosses, while depowered,
leaving enemies moods quite soured.

I see then. So Ganondorf got that Gandalf "your weapons can't harm me" thing.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Normal people have survivied rubble collapses and being buried. This does not make them durable or resistant.

Flukes of luck, statistical feats
Are any of them unharmed at least?
Trying to claim that is sheer stupidity
Have you any idea how many die fluidly
Why don't don't you prove this claim, please
Find an example of someone surviving with ease


You never asked if materia was canon or not, you simply asked what powers they have. The ability to summon meteors, holy and other spells that are in the game is among them. Not sure if the actual materia itself is canon or if in the canon sorcerors can simply cast spells without materia.

And you told me nothing, nothing at all
"They have materia" doesn't save them from fall
You've yet to prove anything you've said
I can't you seriously without proof on your head


Hes got fire resistance, that much I have already given him. no other feat so far.....

Ignoring the castle and depowered sword
Are you so determined to to refuse Ganon as lord?


Glad we agree, no feat.

Not for Midna, no feat there
Ganon's is questionable fare


My claims are backed by the same evidence as yours.

Yet it supports me more than you
And you claim it's not true
Drop the point, seriously, man
It's getting stupider than it can


Fact is, Ganon was temporarily defeated without the MS, he was weakened enough without "evils bane" to drop in power. He could not even hold up a firewall.....

What's so hard to believe?
That Link's Triforce and skill
Managed to stun Ganon's leave
And get the Blade for the kill?


her power lacked, her power could not hit Ganon, she was too slow, etc. We can only factually claim she was not up to the task.

Quite true, though she affected Ganon before
When purifying Zelda and destroying the barrier for more


Sorry but we dont see anything hit kinda like the midna scene lol, LoZ like doing this, we dont see the scene and it would be nice for you to point out that Ganon also has a sword...

Not at the moment that Link struck
Did you not he didn't have it with luck
Only after the sword failed to scratch his skin
Did Ganon pull his blade to hold at Link's chin


As I said, normal people can be survived being buried under rubble and from a lot more chatoic damagic than that, since that castle seemed to fall apart in large piecies, e.g. a whole tower fell almost solid, then another. We only see a few blocks over Ganondorf, I would be very surprised if he was dead.

Normal people also die far more often
And not from a castle collapse as a coffin
Ganon tanked the castle above
That's a feat for durability, gov


What resistance has that phantom thing that he shot shown? and a meteor is not featless....its a large lump of fast rock moving at great speed, lots of them. Holy is featless afaik, but its stronger than the meteors so we have a gauge at least.

Phantom Ganon revives after every fight
Save that one, which put him down with light
He disintegrates like every other foe
Except Ganondorf, as you well know


Battle animations are just as static as any cutscene, their not player controlled. Back up your claims that battle animations are actually irrelevant first. The spells are what they are, saying their animations is not the same the gameplay mechanics 😉

YouTube video

Yes I'm sure this attack works just as presented
With the same planets destroyed as ever repented
Battle animations are too unrelliable
Rife with hyperbole and simply impossible


I just showed you cast time of meteor and holy, the two I belive they will use. If you want to argue about how often they can cast then I am not sure, not sure I have seen Ganon cast many powers himself either. Considering he cannot even hold up a fire ring after being beaten up by a boy without evils bane I cant see him casting more than once or twice.

Then they are too slow to be any use
Before Ganon tires of waiting loose
And still they need feats, or useless they are
Ganon's got feats that take him far

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_Final_Fantasy_VIII_Spells

Cure, Curage, Full life. They can revive and heal using the magic.

YouTube video

Vid is self explanatory.

Then again, way too slow
And they need to stand still
Ganon's killed them with a blow
And fall they will


Why would I drop the point after you just tried to speak against me claiming its fiery (after you did) based on appearances then you claim its spiritual more so because its floating.... 🙄

Because you don't have a point, just a claim
Unsupported at that, and really quite lame


Kills the party with what? so far I have not seen anything powerful from him, whats he going to do? slowly teleport towards his opponents and try and hit people who can shield themselves, blast him to piecies and heal if necessery using the spells I listed? hes a fool if he even tries.

Nothing powerful? Your eyes decieve you
Pay attention, his power is above what they do
He destroyed the castles, have you forgotten this?
And the party's durability is, frankly, piss
Ganon's flame spell is instant, TK, too
The party has nothing on breaking islands in two


It looks like light cancels out his darkness technique completly and he has to recast. One fireball and his technique is useless lol..let alone a huge flash of light like holy.

Recast, what? No
He disappears again once out torches blow
How again, does the fireball hit
When Ganon's invisible, too, get it?


😆 such a hypocrite, your sitting there whining and wailing about how battle animations cannot be used yet your using combat animations in the vid directly above to try and claim Ganon can remain invisible...

Whining? Wailing? Me? Not quite
I don't see how ad homininum works into this fight
Regardless, you misunderstand, once again
The darkness technique is a stated win
In Legend of Zelda, too, it's canon
Where Wisdom is needed to fight Gannon

Originally posted by The Scenario
Flukes of luck, statistical feats
Are any of them unharmed at least?
Trying to claim that is sheer stupidity
Have you any idea how many die fluidly
Why don't don't you prove this claim, please
Find an example of someone surviving with ease

And you told me nothing, nothing at all
"They have materia" doesn't save them from fall
You've yet to prove anything you've said
I can't you seriously without proof on your head

Ignoring the castle and depowered sword
Are you so determined to to refuse Ganon as lord?

Not for Midna, no feat there
Ganon's is questionable fare

Yet it supports me more than you
And you claim it's not true
Drop the point, seriously, man
It's getting stupider than it can

What's so hard to believe?
That Link's Triforce and skill
Managed to stun Ganon's leave
And get the Blade for the kill?

Quite true, though she affected Ganon before
When purifying Zelda and destroying the barrier for more

Not at the moment that Link struck
Did you not he didn't have it with luck
Only after the sword failed to scratch his skin
Did Ganon pull his blade to hold at Link's chin

Normal people also die far more often
And not from a castle collapse as a coffin
Ganon tanked the castle above
That's a feat for durability, gov

Phantom Ganon revives after every fight
Save that one, which put him down with light
He disintegrates like every other foe
Except Ganondorf, as you well know

YouTube video

Yes I'm sure this attack works just as presented
With the same planets destroyed as ever repented
Battle animations are too unrelliable
Rife with hyperbole and simply impossible

Then they are too slow to be any use
Before Ganon tires of waiting loose
And still they need feats, or useless they are
Ganon's got feats that take him far

Then again, way too slow
And they need to stand still
Ganon's killed them with a blow
And fall they will

Because you don't have a point, just a claim
Unsupported at that, and really quite lame

Nothing powerful? Your eyes decieve you
Pay attention, his power is above what they do
He destroyed the castles, have you forgotten this?
And the party's durability is, frankly, piss
Ganon's flame spell is instant, TK, too
The party has nothing on breaking islands in two

Recast, what? No
He disappears again once out torches blow
How again, does the fireball hit
When Ganon's invisible, too, get it?

Whining? Wailing? Me? Not quite
I don't see how ad homininum works into this fight
Regardless, you misunderstand, once again
The darkness technique is a stated win
In Legend of Zelda, too, it's canon
Where Wisdom is needed to fight Gannon

I dont know about unharmed, I am sure most people pulled out of rubble are damaged, but not dead. But in real life whole buildings collapse on top of these people and they can be pulled out alive, without a scratch I never said, but alive yes....and Ganon surviving is not impressive at all, especially not when he was covered by a few blocks.

The proof is that the spells are there, the source of those spells on the other hand, I am not so sure.

Depowered sword was not shown hitting anything, it sounded like metal hitting metal, which was likely as Ganon also had a sword. As for the castle? as i said, hes probably avoided a few scratches, possibly a broken limb, other than that humans have survived far worse collapses.

Questionable? possibly, sitll notihng solid.

Thats just a baseless claim, I can say exactly the same thing and that the evidence supports me more so.

Hes a boy without the weapon required to truly harm Ganon and he wins, and your trying to argue a whole party of experianced people who have by the end of the game fought against far more powerful entities who are both larger and more varied in the powers they posess are apprently going to lose.

Your making those great big assumptions and guesses again, that apprently that was the sound of the sword hitting Ganons skin.
This is unfounded, a sword Ganon had and in the time we could not see him he could have blocked without a sweat.

He didnt necesserily tank anything. Also I thought he was actually further up, inside the castle rather than below like most humans in collapses.

He revives but has no actual druability? no special resistances....by the name phantom it just sounds like he was a ghost and the "light" arrows put him out.

Your using a spell from FF7, an unlikely one at that to try and claim all spells and animations in FF games are BS? 🙄 I dont know how many fallacies that is, hasty generalisation is one of them.

And its not impossible, only improbable. Also an animation does not have to be canon to the game, for it to be canon to the universe. In canon those things may not have happened but in canon with the actual spell, they do. In supernovas case I would say its not doing those things, but sometihng as simple as a flash of light, or meteor storms are fictionally common.

Nice how you dodged trying to back up Ganons cast times, which are also slow by the way. hell even his teleports and movements are slow. Ganons not Kain or Dante in which FF spells could be considered fairly slow, but to Ganon their too fast.

based on what? what feats has Ganon shown that he can kill them with a blow? show me....and he may be able to kill one with a blow, that only leaves several others, each who could revive the fallen while crushing Ganon under meteors....

lol, its fully supported by the scene and now youve splittered your own credability by claiming the same as me despite argueing I am wrong you want us to move on from the point? lol...

Its by no means above, they can call down huge meteors and revive the dead.... destroyed the castles? first one he shook down with a light tremur, not sure how it succeeded in bringing anything down unless the castles craftmen were really poor and its supports were old but yeh, it was a light tremur. not sure if that would even knock the FF party to their feet, not sure it did it to link. And as for the flame spell, its just a ring of fire, which he cannot hold up and normal people can survive burns, least of all those with healing and water spells.

Technically neither does Ganon, we only hear of him breaking an island but we dont see it, we dont know how we did it. FF lovers can claim all they want that he used a spell but for all we know he could have stood hours, inciting an incantation or had his larger minions break it apart. As for the TK, I have seen him thrown around one imp, midna...thats it. Not sure if he can lift a humans body weight with any force, I see him lifting Zelda extremely slowly as if he can barely manage her but that could be part of the spell.

Yes, he sort of flashes after a time of being invisible and has to react his shadow technique. The fact he has to put it on again makes it clear its not a constant power. And the fireball does not have to hit, also just because he cannot be seen by the naked eye does not mean the FF party cannot predict his location, they have enough large scale AOE spells in holy and meteor to light up his rough direction.

Learn what an Ad hominem is before you use it, me being snarky does not make my post an ad hominem. oh and Theres hardly anything stated about it at all, and what we actually see is poor.

Originally posted by TacDavey

Why didn't you say so? All you had to do was ask.
I'll find the video showing this task.
Here, in Wind Waker you can obviously find
The proof that you had in mind.

Aside from the video pay very close attention to the type.
Pause right at 1:20, if you would like.
Or if you would like I'll just copy it here
To fight Ganon, Link does not have the proper gear.

That is the most astoundingly inaccurate argument I have ever seen on this forum. So you're telling me just because some pathetic little kid with a sharpened piece of scrap metal couldn't manage to stab Ganondorf from a HEAD ON CHARGE, that ALL swords that haven't been "blessed by the gods" are completely useless against him? When have villains ever not lied to the hero in a video game about being "impossible to defeat"? I can assure you that whatever magical protection Ganondorf has on him could easily be removed by the variety of dispelling abilities available to the average FF8 team, and that the most powerful gunblades are enhanced with magic that is far more powerful than anything Ganondorf has ever used. From the looks of it, one swipe from the Lionheart would have shattered that sword into pieces, and Ganondorf would be history in a good 30 seconds. Until you can actually prove that this particular sword is the only thing capable of damaging him, it's clear that the FF8 team easily wins this fight.

Good post, as I said when I replied to it. The credability of Ganon in this instance at least is very poor. Its not likely hes going to correct Link and tell him what he needs, and if he does, its not likely the truth. Infact its more than likely a lie.

Even if they could prove that in his universe its the only weapon that can scratch him (and the sages sword).....(oh and again, the other weapons he used to throttle Ganon when he does not have the MS in OoT) it would still be a no limit fallacy and would be considered null and void.

Originally posted by Vryheid
[quote=TacDavey]
Why didn't you say so? All you had to do was ask.
I'll find the video showing this task.
Here, in Wind Waker you can obviously find
The proof that you had in mind.

Aside from the video pay very close attention to the type.
Pause right at 1:20, if you would like.
Or if you would like I'll just copy it here
To fight Ganon, Link does not have the proper gear.

That is the most astoundingly inaccurate argument I have ever seen on this forum. So you're telling me just because some pathetic little kid with a sharpened piece of scrap metal couldn't manage to stab Ganondorf from a HEAD ON CHARGE, that ALL swords that haven't been "blessed by the gods" are completely useless against him? When have villains ever not lied to the hero in a video game about being "impossible to defeat"? I can assure you that whatever magical protection Ganondorf has on him could easily be removed by the variety of dispelling abilities available to the average FF8 team, and that the most powerful gunblades are enhanced with magic that is far more powerful than anything Ganondorf has ever used. From the looks of it, one swipe from the Lionheart would have shattered that sword into pieces, and Ganondorf would be history in a good 30 seconds. Until you can actually prove that this particular sword is the only thing capable of damaging him, it's clear that the FF8 team easily wins this fight. [/QUOTE]
Sir, I offer you one chance to repent,
the stance you're taking is slightly bent.
A no limit fallacy on the part of dispel,
and ignoring Link's amped strength, as well.

The only thing clear, is that EffEff is chanceless,
unfortunately for you, the party is featless.
The master sword is on par with the triforce,
powered by the Gods to seal Ganon's life force.

Without taking advantage of the light to smite sin,
there's no chance for the party to even harm him.
Ganon's durability is simply to high,
for them to bother with a try.

Are you all serious, have you all gone mad?
Your incompetence is staggering it's really that bad.
I'm almost forced to break from my rhyming way
To trash all of the illogical motions you play.

BT you claim normal weapons can slice like the rest.
But that video more than put that theory to the test.
The MS was still sharp like any other sword
But in slicing Ganon it could not afford.

Ganon specifically says, he cannot be beat
By any normal sword, there's the proof that you seek.
But apparently you pass that off as somehow Links mistake
That's a RIDICULOUSLY illogical stance for you to take.

'What you hold is USELESS"

What does this mean? I want to hear your thought.
Cause you are claiming the battle can be fought
With a normal sword, but what was the MS?
It couldn't beat Ganon, unless it was at it's best.

That quote isn't talking about Link, not at all.
It was the swords fault that before him he did fall.
But you want to claim the Gunblade can cut just the same.
Do you ever get tired of this illogical game?

It's obvious you aren't even trying to reason, you haven't been for a while.
Since your spewing illogical like it's going out of style.
I gave you a video a quote RIGHT FROM THE GAME
But you keep up your arguments just the same.

Oh wait, then you said the FF party would win
By slicing Ganon into parts, I have to admit that made me grin.
A good joke, that, yes humorous indeed.
But better reasoning sadly, you'll need.

The fact that you'd stoop to such a ridiculous claim
Shows there is no logical points that remain.
We've dealt with magic, swords don't have much affect
What other options can the FF8 crew get?

I've shown you that Ganon cannot be harmed
By normal weapons with which the FF crew is armed.
And what is your response? Well maybe Squall can cuz he's tough.
Unfortunately that just isn't enough.

You say Ganon has a lack of feats, that's really quite a sad sight.
I've been providing them up, down, left and right.
But of course you ignore them, at that you're the best.
That's just something I had to get off of my chest.

And then you claim, wait this one is good,
That he said LINK couldn't beat him, so anyone else could.
Do you really believe that, are you sure that's the stance you want to voice?
The problem wasn't Link, it was his weaponry choice.

The whole problem was the sword was not good enough
If finally Ganon's flame he wanted snuff.
That's obviously why he had to get it powered back to it's regular glimmer
Since to kill Ganon, with Holy power the sword had to shimmer.

Otherwise, why did the sword not work there but DID later?
Answer me that, cause that puts a nasty crater
Into your argument, not that it needed any more
you've had so many from before.