FF8 Party v.s. Ganondorf

Originally posted by The Scenario

I seriously can't stand this thread. I had fun with the rhyming, but honestly, this is getting ridiculous. I'll drop it for now.

Look, you can claim this all you want, but you have not even attempted to prove it, though I asked you multiple times. What you're doing is a generalization. Because some people have survived building collapses (though you haven't presented any evidence for this), you seem to think that this means any normal person can survive any castle collapsing, thus disproving Ganondorf's feat.

In order to successfully argue this point, you must do the following:

1. Prove that anyone can survive a castle collapsing.
2. Prove that the survivals are not statistical probabilities (ie: 1000 people in a building, 1 person survives. The Law of Averages.)
3. Prove that a building collapsing is the same as a castle collapsing.
And finally,
4. Prove that human survival in a collapse has anything to do with durability, and not luck, as in the above example. Most likely, any survivals have to with another part of the building taking the weight that would otherwise crush them.

I'm simply wondering if any member of the cast has actually used materia in canon. The meteors still have less than absolute zero in feats. Have they ripped something apart before?

Then you shouldn't assume he took his sword out in the first place.

YouTube video

1:16

YouTube video

4:48

Why don't you be the judge, then? Compare the sounds we don't see the source of to when Link strikes Ganondorf. Also note that despite getting slashed, Ganondorf's robe didn't tear that time, either, and in a cutscene no less.

Wait, how do you determine anything if not by observation? I don't understand what you're saying, since any given feat will involve what appears to be happening.Plus, there is a difference between assumption and conclusion.

It fit perfectly, and ignoring it will not help you. Quite simply, you were using a loop of logic, assuming that one is true and then going from there. In your post, you implied that because Link without the Master Sword "won" (we were discussing the part about Link causing Ganon to drop the fire shield, not actual defeat) that Ganon is weak. You further assume that the FF8 party is more experienced than Link, thus they can defeat Ganon, when that is pretty much irrelevant. After this, you claimed that the party fought being more powerful than Ganon, when that is not evident at all. During that, you claimed that because those "more powerful" beings were bigger and more varied than Ganon, they were better.

In short, no.

What do you mean? It's just odd to assume that Ganondorf would pull out a sword, block an attack, put the sword back, and then pull it out again.

Prior evidence shows that Ganondorf is able to create swords from thin air. Plus, the katana he was using there was longer than his sleaves.

The post contained sarcasm. This is not an excuse for you to ignore it entirely. Point is, that video showed that Ganondorf's castle collapse included didintegrating the entire top of the tower and caused flaming rocks to fall from the sky. Since you seem to think flaming rocks are so powerful, I pointed it out. I also noted that he trapped Zelda in a ring of fire during the collapse, so yeah.

Does not change the fact that Light Arrow = Disintegration.

Stop cherry picking, then. There's nothing to suggest that Meteor isn't an illusion just like Supernova is, especially since it has a rather glaring breach of physics and logic in the animation. So Meteor is still a featless and worthless spell.

Yes, so it makes no sense. Not a single canon feat, or even a non canon one.

Useless? You really think those are useless? You asked me to provide cast times, and I did. Anyway, Ganondorf can levitate and FF can't. I call this useful. I decreased the time needed for Ganondorf to teleport. I call this useful. And you of all people think a bat form is useless? I further don't understand why you don't think that shockwave punch is useful. FF has no defensive feats or durability feats, so it very well could kill them.

I notice you ignored the actually threatening abilities. But yes, he could turn into a bat to dodge or levitate out of range, since Meteor has no range to speak of, while Ganondorf has proven long range abilities.

Further, I notice that you ignored his other powers. For instance, the one where I proved that [b]Ganondorf can become intangible in light? What about the Waves of Darkness? Whole party paralyzed and can't even get close to him. He can trap them in those barriers and rings of fire. He could use the death touch. There wasn't a video, but he can also open the gap between dimensions right under the party's feet.

What did you just say? The contruction is poor because Link and Zelda didn't fall down? I don't know about you, but that's usually a sign that a castle is well constructed, being that stable.

But not all the other stuff that Ganondorf can do. The fires (and gap between dimensins) are abilities can Ganondorf can still use from far out of range of the party, where they can't do anything.

Why is it baseless? Ganondorf destroyed an island. That's a good base.

What? When did Ganondorf lift the sword slowly? At the speed he's shown to be able to toss things, the party wont be able to react before he's impaled one of them. Ganondorf's TK overpowered Midna's, and she's a multi-tonner.

Maybe, except for the fact that there was no inconsistency. It was a cutscene in the original Legend of Zelda where Link had to present the Triforce of Wisdom to light the room and reveal Ganon. [/B]

Because asking me to prove people can survive building collapses is like asking you to prove gravity exists and the Earth orbits the sun, silly buggering. Furthermore its not really a feat, a few blocks of stone resting on him is not impressive. You would have to prove that Ganons survival was not to do with luck in this case....

Its irrelevant as its part of the game, the materia is canon and the fact the party uses materia is also canon. Meteors are fast burning rocks that are often dense enough to survive entry into the atmosphere ofc they can rip Ganon to bits.

According to you he can make swords appear out of thin air so he could have done that as well, yet another possibilty.

And what point was he cut? all I see is him getting stabbed through the skull, I did not see his robes getting cut or attacked.

observation, but as you argued before appearance is not everything which is what your basing your views on.

No it was useless and flawed, it never said all this. Thats not a loop of logic, just a list of facts.

This only helps my point and the Katana could have been in more places than his sleeves, within his robes? in any case we hear him draw it.

A ring of fire is hardly going to be a problem for a team who can cast water spells, assuming ofc that the fire would stop them at all.

Its not doing anything to the universe that is as canonically breaking as the solarsystem being blown up, trying to complain that a spell from another FF game altogether is not true to canon is a poor example to discredit meteor. And its not bending any physics, its a spell and the player is through gameplay watching the spell in space, whether or not it teleports the opponent into space is unkown this does not negate the spell.

The shockwave punch does not have feats either, yes their all useless.

You did not prove that, only that he can become intangible before transforming into a bat. Paralyzed? according to what, link was just too weak to move and Ganondorf could not keep it up while doing anything else, and the whole party? it effected one person....leaving 7 people to one hit kill/defeat a vulnerable dorf unless he lets the frozen member lose to flee.

The castle is falling apart yet Link and Zelda are hardly botherd by the tremur. Its hardly the most sturdy of castles. Dimensions is useless, fire? see above..

Actually thats a pretty poor base, ambigious you could say. It does not say how he did it, how long it took and whether or not he had help. When did he overpower Midnas TK? he slowly lifted up Zelda, seems pretty weak and he tossed a light imp a short distance.

Its still an animation...

Scenario creates an impregnable fortress of text, backed by canon facts and cutscenes, and BT builds a miniature town out of sticks nearby, pretends they're the same thing, and attacks his twig town. 🙁

IE: Congrats on proving you can't actually argue against anything Scenario said, BT.

The town of sticks was just a decoy for the short sighted. It was my super star destroyers in orbit that just moltenised his little fortress.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Obviously what we see happen on-screen are just exaggerations of reality and we can't count them for shit.

Also, he means that you guys exaggerate shit like Majoras whips, teh Lazor dodging and (maybe) Link being a 100 tonner to make your favourite characters look cool. Stuff like that.

There is absolutely nothing to exaggerate with Link being a 100 tonner. If he picks up/moves/manipulates an object that we know is 100 tons or in excess of 100 tons, then flat out, he is a 100 tonner.

It's just that some people don't understand how relatively little something weighing a 100 tons can be.

Originally posted by Burning thought
The town of sticks was just a decoy for the short sighted. It was my super star destroyers in orbit that just moltenised his little fortress.

IT'S A TRAP!

...DO A BARREL ROLL. >_>

Originally posted by Burning thought
Because asking me to prove people can survive building collapses is like asking you to prove gravity exists and the Earth orbits the sun, silly buggering. Furthermore its not really a feat, a few blocks of stone resting on him is not impressive. You would have to prove that Ganons survival was not to do with luck in this case....

Nonetheless, I would suggest you actually back up your claims when you make them. There is a difference between proving gravity exists and proving people survive building collapses based on durability. For instance, without additional circumstances, gravity always works. People do not always survive collapses. Any data you could find would tell you that people die far more often than they survive, and that when they do survive it is often considered a miracle survival. Further, buildings collapsing and castles collapsing are not the same thing at all. Modern building are usually composed of very weak, light materials, such as plaster or drywall, on a steel base. Castles are, more often than not, nothing but giant, and heavy, stone structures.

Its irrelevant as its part of the game, the materia is canon and the fact the party uses materia is also canon. Meteors are fast burning rocks that are often dense enough to survive entry into the atmosphere ofc they can rip Ganon to bits.

Similarly to how Nayru's Love is on Link's canon spell list, with a clear description of it, yet cannot be used due to lack of cutscenes and feats, according to you. Provide a feat for meteor beyond gameplay damage, and I'll concede this point.

According to you he can make swords appear out of thin air so he could have done that as well, yet another possibilty.

But putting it back only to immediately take it out again is still apoor guess at what happened. There was even a similar sound effect when Link struck Ganon's flesh in the cutscene I showed you.

And what point was he cut? all I see is him getting stabbed through the skull, I did not see his robes getting cut or attacked.

Right before stabbing Ganondorf in the skull, Link performed a horizontal slash around Ganondorf's chest area. There no visible damage. In fact, his gem breaking is the only damage indicator.

observation, but as you argued before appearance is not everything which is what your basing your views on.

Appearance is all we have to base our views on. It looked like fire, but further observation indicated that it was not, based on the fact that nothing was burned.

No it was useless and flawed, it never said all this. Thats not a loop of logic, just a list of facts.

Facts that you have chosen not to back up at all. There's not much to suggest that any of what you said was true. You did in fact say all of that. I can quote it if you wish.

Hes a boy without the weapon required to truly harm Ganon and he wins, and your trying to argue a whole party of experianced people who have by the end of the game fought against far more powerful entities who are both larger and more varied in the powers they posess are apprently going to lose.

Just as I said. You say that because Link "won", the FF party will win. Because the FF party is more experienced than Link, they will win. Because the FF party has fought far more powerful, larger, and more varied opponents, they will win. If not said, heavily implied.

That might fly somewhere else, but none of that is good enough.

This only helps my point and the Katana could have been in more places than his sleeves, within his robes? in any case we hear him draw it.

Did we hear him draw it? Or was that his incredibly durable skin deflecting the blow of depowered weapon?

A ring of fire is hardly going to be a problem for a team who can cast water spells, assuming ofc that the fire would stop them at all.

They have shown no resistance to fire, or anything else for that matter. You're assuming fire won't stop them. A small ring of fire and they won't be able to move without getting burned. If they stop to cast spells with no canon cast times, they get crystal imprisoned and teleported away.

Its not doing anything to the universe that is as canonically breaking as the solarsystem being blown up, trying to complain that a spell from another FF game altogether is not true to canon is a poor example to discredit meteor. And its not bending any physics, its a spell and the player is through gameplay watching the spell in space, whether or not it teleports the opponent into space is unkown this does not negate the spell.

Supernova is an example, I'm complaining about the sheer stupidity that is Meteor. And you said it yourself, the player is watching Meteor in gameplay, which doesn't count according to you. And when it does hit, it merely does damge that can't be quantified at all. In fact, teleporting to space is the thing that negates the spell, and the thing that destroys most of physics. The length of time spent in space should be fatal, but lol only meteors deal damage in space. If that's an illusion, then the rest of the spell is an illusion as well.

The shockwave punch does not have feats either, yes their all useless.

Unless you don't count blowing out most of the floor, then yes it does. None of the party has feats to take that blow, so it's moot anyway.

You did not prove that, only that he can become intangible before transforming into a bat. Paralyzed? according to what, link was just too weak to move and Ganondorf could not keep it up while doing anything else, and the whole party? it effected one person....leaving 7 people to one hit kill/defeat a vulnerable dorf unless he lets the frozen member lose to flee.

That doesn't negate the fact that Ganon has shown the ability to become intangible, so I no longer have to use the Darkness Technique. Now you're assuming and looping again. "Oh, Link is too weak, the FF party is strong enough to push through that because they're stronger than Link despite having no feats to back this up, but because I think Link is weak they don't need any."

Hey, guess what? Those waves of darkness have affected multiple people, as evidenced by Navi saying that she can't get close while they're active. Since Navi doesn't come back when it's over, it seems she's still being affected. Now, we know that the Triforce of Courage and Master Sword are protecting Link here, and he still stops in his tracks. Navi doesn't have that, so she gets sidelined the entire battle.

Now, I guess what I'm saying is, you need to prove that the FF party has a resistence, like Link, or they are going to get the same treatment as Navi. In effect, prove that they're stronger than this little fairy. If you can do that, they get the upgrade from pushed back to paralyzed.

The castle is falling apart yet Link and Zelda are hardly botherd by the tremur. Its hardly the most sturdy of castles. Dimensions is useless, fire? see above..

The castle is not shaking much --> The castle is highly unstable? That is not how it works at all. If anything, that proves that the castle is very sturdy, since sturdy means it does not shake.

Now you have to prove why the gap between dimensions is useless, instead of just claiming it is and moving on. As I see it, that's an instant BFR that Ganondorf can unleash from very far away. If you were thinking of using the usual defense of Phantom Ganon having to be TK'd into it, notice that Phantom Ganon is floating while the FF party is not. All Ganondorf would have to do is open it underneath the paty's feet and let gravity take care of it. Rinse and repeat while out of their range and unable to see or even hit him, and Ganondorf has won.

Actually thats a pretty poor base, ambigious you could say. It does not say how he did it, how long it took and whether or not he had help. When did he overpower Midnas TK? he slowly lifted up Zelda, seems pretty weak and he tossed a light imp a short distance.

Ever consider that he flies by TKing himself? You don't see anything and it's instant, two of the tell tale signs of TK. Regardless, when he tossed Midna, he put his TK against hers and won. He overpowered Midna's ability to fly, and tossed her over 20 meters. He called a sword to his hand very quickly, when there was not one in sight (it was Zelda's rapier, so he didn't create it.)

Its still an animation...

Which is the difference between cutscenes and LOLNO GAMEPLAY.

BEWARE THE ADAMANTIUM TEXT FORTRESS. IT'S LIKE A DWARF FORTRESS, BUT STRONGER AND CRAZIER. POSSIBLY ON FIRE.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
...DO A BARREL ROLL. >_>

😑

Originally posted by The Scenario
Nonetheless, I would suggest you actually back up your claims when you make them. There is a difference between proving gravity exists and proving people survive building collapses based on durability. For instance, without additional circumstances, gravity always works. People do not always survive collapses. Any data you could find would tell you that people die far more often than they survive, and that when they do survive it is often considered a miracle survival. Further, buildings collapsing and castles collapsing are not the same thing at all. Modern building are usually composed of very weak, light materials, such as plaster or drywall, on a steel base. Castles are, more often than not, nothing but giant, and heavy, stone structures.

Similarly to how Nayru's Love is on Link's canon spell list, with a clear description of it, yet cannot be used due to lack of cutscenes and feats, according to you. Provide a feat for meteor beyond gameplay damage, and I'll concede this point.

But putting it back only to immediately take it out again is still apoor guess at what happened. There was even a similar sound effect when Link struck Ganon's flesh in the cutscene I showed you.

Right before stabbing Ganondorf in the skull, Link performed a horizontal slash around Ganondorf's chest area. There no visible damage. In fact, his gem breaking is the only damage indicator.

Appearance is all we have to base our views on. It looked like fire, but further observation indicated that it was not, based on the fact that nothing was burned.

Facts that you have chosen not to back up at all. There's not much to suggest that any of what you said was true. You did in fact say all of that. I can quote it if you wish.

Just as I said. You say that because Link "won", the FF party will win. Because the FF party is more experienced than Link, they will win. Because the FF party has fought far more powerful, larger, and more varied opponents, they will win. If not said, heavily implied.

That might fly somewhere else, but none of that is good enough.

Did we hear him draw it? Or was that his incredibly durable skin deflecting the blow of depowered weapon?

They have shown no resistance to fire, or anything else for that matter. You're assuming fire won't stop them. A small ring of fire and they won't be able to move without getting burned. If they stop to cast spells with no canon cast times, they get crystal imprisoned and teleported away.

Supernova is an example, I'm complaining about the sheer stupidity that is Meteor. And you said it yourself, the player is watching Meteor in gameplay, which doesn't count according to you. And when it does hit, it merely does damge that can't be quantified at all. In fact, teleporting to space is the thing that negates the spell, and the thing that destroys most of physics. The length of time spent in space should be fatal, but lol only meteors deal damage in space. If that's an illusion, then the rest of the spell is an illusion as well.

Unless you don't count blowing out most of the floor, then yes it does. None of the party has feats to take that blow, so it's moot anyway.

That doesn't negate the fact that Ganon has shown the ability to become intangible, so I no longer have to use the Darkness Technique. Now you're assuming and looping again. "Oh, Link is too weak, the FF party is strong enough to push through that because they're stronger than Link despite having no feats to back this up, but because I think Link is weak they don't need any."

Hey, guess what? Those waves of darkness have affected multiple people, as evidenced by Navi saying that she can't get close while they're active. Since Navi doesn't come back when it's over, it seems she's still being affected. Now, we know that the Triforce of Courage and Master Sword are protecting Link here, and he still stops in his tracks. Navi doesn't have that, so she gets sidelined the entire battle.

Now, I guess what I'm saying is, you need to prove that the FF party has a resistence, like Link, or they are going to get the same treatment as Navi. In effect, prove that they're stronger than this little fairy. If you can do that, they get the upgrade from pushed back to paralyzed.

The castle is not shaking much --> The castle is highly unstable? That is not how it works at all. If anything, that proves that the castle is very sturdy, since sturdy means it does not shake.

Now you have to prove why the gap between dimensions is useless, instead of just claiming it is and moving on. As I see it, that's an instant BFR that Ganondorf can unleash from very far away. If you were thinking of using the usual defense of Phantom Ganon having to be TK'd into it, notice that Phantom Ganon is floating while the FF party is not. All Ganondorf would have to do is open it underneath the paty's feet and let gravity take care of it. Rinse and repeat while out of their range and unable to see or even hit him, and Ganondorf has won.

Ever consider that he flies by TKing himself? You don't see anything and it's instant, two of the tell tale signs of TK. Regardless, when he tossed Midna, he put his TK against hers and won. He overpowered Midna's ability to fly, and tossed her over 20 meters. He called a sword to his hand very quickly, when there was not one in sight (it was Zelda's rapier, so he didn't create it.)

Which is the difference between cutscenes and LOLNO GAMEPLAY.

BEWARE THE ADAMANTIUM TEXT FORTRESS. IT'S LIKE A DWARF FORTRESS, BUT STRONGER AND CRAZIER. POSSIBLY ON FIRE.

I like how you ignored the part about proving Ganon did not indeed survive based on luck and I am sure you can understand that larger blocks of stone like those in a castle would also more likely hit eachother and block eachothers path than gravel and steel beams. Also I dont recall saying a human is durable enough to take a building falling on them, only that calling them durable enough in this situation is simliar to calling Ganon durable enough as we dont see the objects hitting him.

I am not sure of Nayru's love origin, cant recall saying its not allowed so I will leave that. A meteor is a base reality object, again thats like asking me to prove gravity exists or works the same way in FF, meteors are real occurances and this spell just happens to summon a few of them.

I think its a much better one than assuming Ganons skin and robes made the noise of metal striking metal.

That looks like gameplay though....not a cutscene...

Your evidence that nothing was burned was based on something other than the fiery looking head touching something.

I dont need to provide evidence as its been shown in this thread already by other people. How powerful FF enemies are in comparison to LoZ has already been argued. Also you say that none of this is good enough, how so? if they have greater weapons and these more experianced warriors are>one boy with what, light arrows then how is that not enough? theres enough A>B here to actually mean something.

It could actually be neither, thats my assumption and your assumption. Mine being more likely as the robes were not cut and its the sound of metal hitting metal. Theres nothing for me to think it was Ganon getting hit.

Wont be able to move? not sure theres any indication of how hot those flames are and more importantly, the crystal/teleport move of Ganons is of unkown casttime and more likely very slow considering how long has to do it.

gameplay does not count for a canon use, that does not mean the spell does not exist, it means that the character did not canonically use it at that very point. This does not discredit the fact that the spell does what its supposed to do which is summon meteors.

It did not blow out the floor, they fell away in perfect block formation from the center so pure damage did not do that. The range and charge of the punch being damn slow also works against it.

Theres no indication that link was "paralyzed" or that the waves affect more than maybe 2 targets their area of affect which was low in itself. The fairy was moving around fine, she just said she could not help him but nice reach..

Link and Zelda are not shaking or hardly moving at all, yet the castle is falling down around them...

First its not instant, I like how you try and claim every spell we dont see Ganon cast is automatically instant. Phantom Ganon did not resist at all and he had to be held over the Gap to be sucked in, so its not simply a hole in the ground.

So your assuming he/midna uses TK to fly, then your assuming theres tonnes of TK power behind that flight therefores his Tk is in tonnes? lol...that is some of the biggest assumption/reaching I have seen you do in this thread.

The fire is the molten liquid that the fortress has become after yet another volley of Star destroyer fire 😉

Originally posted by Burning thought
I like how you ignored the part about proving Ganon did not indeed survive based on luck and I am sure you can understand that larger blocks of stone like those in a castle would also more likely hit eachother and block eachothers path than gravel and steel beams. Also I dont recall saying a human is durable enough to take a building falling on them, only that calling them durable enough in this situation is simliar to calling Ganon durable enough as we dont see the objects hitting him.

I am not sure of Nayru's love origin, cant recall saying its not allowed so I will leave that. A meteor is a base reality object, again thats like asking me to prove gravity exists or works the same way in FF, meteors are real occurances and this spell just happens to summon a few of them.

I think its a much better one than assuming Ganons skin and robes made the noise of metal striking metal.

That looks like gameplay though....not a cutscene...

Your evidence that nothing was burned was based on something other than the fiery looking head touching something.

I dont need to provide evidence as its been shown in this thread already by other people. How powerful FF enemies are in comparison to LoZ has already been argued. Also you say that none of this is good enough, how so? if they have greater weapons and these more experianced warriors are>one boy with what, light arrows then how is that not enough? theres enough A>B here to actually mean something.

It could actually be neither, thats my assumption and your assumption. Mine being more likely as the robes were not cut and its the sound of metal hitting metal. Theres nothing for me to think it was Ganon getting hit.

Wont be able to move? not sure theres any indication of how hot those flames are and more importantly, the crystal/teleport move of Ganons is of unkown casttime and more likely very slow considering how long has to do it.

gameplay does not count for a canon use, that does not mean the spell does not exist, it means that the character did not canonically use it at that very point. This does not discredit the fact that the spell does what its supposed to do which is summon meteors.

It did not blow out the floor, they fell away in perfect block formation from the center so pure damage did not do that. The range and charge of the punch being damn slow also works against it.

Theres no indication that link was "paralyzed" or that the waves affect more than maybe 2 targets their area of affect which was low in itself. The fairy was moving around fine, she just said she could not help him but nice reach..

Link and Zelda are not shaking or hardly moving at all, yet the castle is falling down around them...

First its not instant, I like how you try and claim every spell we dont see Ganon cast is automatically instant. Phantom Ganon did not resist at all and he had to be held over the Gap to be sucked in, so its not simply a hole in the ground.

So your assuming he/midna uses TK to fly, then your assuming theres tonnes of TK power behind that flight therefores his Tk is in tonnes? lol...that is some of the biggest assumption/reaching I have seen you do in this thread.

The fire is the molten liquid that the fortress has become after yet another volley of Star destroyer fire 😉

Okay, I have to jump in real quick to add something.

Burning Thought, the reason Ganon's robes were no torn is because the developers did not want to add extra work in animating torn robes. There is simply no need. They don't animate it when he takes hits, Link doesn't get a big red mark on his face after Ganon backhands him, they just don't need to do it. It's a very common thing in games to have clothing untouched by what is happening around then, so using the fact that they didn't animate an extra model to have Ganon with torn robes is NOT a logically sound reason to assume he didn't come in contact with the blade.

Also, assuming he pulled his sword out, put it away, and then pulled it instantly back out again is nothing short of irrational. He does not use that fighting style, as you suggested before, we don't hear him pull the sword out, and there is simply no point in having him do that.

The developers were NOT trying to make a mystery scene here. Especially considering they have him TELL Link that the sword is useless. Why would the developers try to hide the plot of the game? You are suggesting that Ganon lied to Link, and then Link went on a quest to recharge the sword for NO reason whatsoever, and they never even revealed that in the game? Does that honestly sound logical to you? Are you trying to tell me that the entire second half of that game, spent recharging the power of the sword was a complete waist of time? It didn't need to happen? And the developers WANTED it that way, yet had absolutely NOTHING to reveal this or even mildly suggest this placed in the game? And they expected you, the player, to figure this out because Ganon MIGHT have been lying?

I have much more confidence in the Legend of Zelda developers than that.

I just rammed my A-Wing into the bridge of your Super Star Destroyer.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Okay, I have to jump in real quick to add something.

Burning Thought, the reason Ganon's robes were no torn is because the developers did not want to add extra work in animating torn robes. There is simply no need. They don't animate it when he takes hits, Link doesn't get a big red mark on his face after Ganon backhands him, they just don't need to do it. It's a very common thing in games to have clothing untouched by what is happening around then, so using the fact that they didn't animate an extra model to have Ganon with torn robes is NOT a logically sound reason to assume he didn't come in contact with the blade.

Also, assuming he pulled his sword out, put it away, and then pulled it instantly back out again is nothing short of irrational. He does not use that fighting style, as you suggested before, we don't hear him pull the sword out, and there is simply no point in having him do that.

The developers were NOT trying to make a mystery scene here. Especially considering they have him TELL Link that the sword is useless. Why would the developers try to hide the plot of the game? You are suggesting that Ganon lied to Link, and then Link went on a quest to recharge the sword for NO reason whatsoever, and they never even revealed that in the game? Does that honestly sound logical to you? Are you trying to tell me that the entire second half of that game, spent recharging the power of the sword was a complete waist of time? It didn't need to happen? And the developers WANTED it that way, yet had absolutely NOTHING to reveal this or even mildly suggest this placed in the game? And they expected you, the player, to figure this out because Ganon MIGHT have been lying?

I have much more confidence in the Legend of Zelda developers than that.

I just rammed my A-Wing into the bridge of your Super Star Destroyer.

You dont know thats the reason why they were not torn. We do not see him get slashed, if we see him get slashed but the robes were not torn then maybe you could argue this. otherwise no...thats just your opinion. And the sound of a sword hitting metal is not enough evidence to suggest it just bounced off Ganons skin.

Perhaps to block the sword? also Scenario pointed out Ganon can apprently make swords from thin air.

Power up sword to kill ganon? sure....power up a sword to scratch him? not implied. Technically the sword is irrelevant anyway because even fully charged, Links tactics are not much better, only PIS stopped Ganon from just swatting link again unless ofc Link learned new techniques to beat Ganon.

Fortunatley the shields have been brought up in time.

Watch 6:48

YouTube video

Now watch 2:52

YouTube video

TK in the tonnes

Originally posted by Burning thought
You dont know thats the reason why they were not torn. We do not see him get slashed, if we see him get slashed but the robes were not torn then maybe you could argue this. otherwise no...thats just your opinion. And the sound of a sword hitting metal is not enough evidence to suggest it just bounced off Ganons skin.

No, it is a logical conclusion drawn from evidence, not my opinion. You want to argue that Ganon didn't take the sword and you reason this is so because his robes were not torn. But this isn't good reasoning, as we know that clothing is rarely shown to have wear and tear in games. Further more, the game and the scene following all suggest the exact opposite of what you have concluded. So basically, you are arguing against all the evidence and your only defense is that his robes were not torn. But again, I have provided a logical reason this is not so.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Perhaps to block the sword? also Scenario pointed out Ganon can apprently make swords from thin air.

How he gets the sword is completely irrelevant. You are claiming he magics up a sword, blocks the attack, then magics away the sword, and then about 2 SECONDS after he puts the sword away, he pulls it right back out again!

Does that seem logical to you? Why would anyone do that? That just simply makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Power up sword to kill ganon? sure....power up a sword to scratch him? not implied. Technically the sword is irrelevant anyway because even fully charged, Links tactics are not much better, only PIS stopped Ganon from just swatting link again unless ofc Link learned new techniques to beat Ganon.

PIS? No, not at all. Ganon swats Links originally because he falls on the ground after having his attack deflected. Once this is taken care of that tactic is no longer viable.

I LOVE PIS though. Really good stuff there. It's the perfect thing to bring into play when you want to remove feats from an opposing character. That feat hurt your case? That's okay, just PIS it. What's to stop me from PISing everything the FF8 party does? FF8 can't actually beat Ultimicia, it was PIS.

I notice whenever someone is backed into a corner the old PIS argument comes right out of the closet.

When it all comes down to it, you are basing your entire stance off of one big fat MAYBE. One giant POSSIBILITY. One big sloppy PERHAPS.

Did you know that we can only know 2 things in the world 100%? That truth exists, and you exist. Everything else cannot be proven 100%. Yet there ARE things we know for a fact, right? But how do we know them? When you look down at your hand, how do you know it's really there, and all your senses aren't simply being tricked into thinking it's there? Because it's the most probable explanation.

It's also possible that Link ran at Ganon, a giant snake with nipple eyes came out of the ground, stopped Link's attack and let out a loud sword clang sound effect from it's butt before magicing back into Ganon's big toe to await further use. So why isn't THAT possibility being considered?

Because it's just not logical. You HAVE to go off of more than just what you see, any scientist or logician will tell you that. We have to consider what is the most logical explanation for what happened during that 2 seconds off screen, and Ganon pulling his sword out, putting it away, and redrawing it is NOT the most logical explanation.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Fortunatley the shields have been brought up in time.

Not quite. Admiral Ackbar noticed your Trap and created a virus to keep your shields down while we suicide bombed you.

Originally posted by Burning thought
I like how you ignored the part about proving Ganon did not indeed survive based on luck and I am sure you can understand that larger blocks of stone like those in a castle would also more likely hit eachother and block eachothers path than gravel and steel beams. Also I dont recall saying a human is durable enough to take a building falling on them, only that calling them durable enough in this situation is simliar to calling Ganon durable enough as we dont see the objects hitting him.

Sorry, I was somewhat distracted. There are several blocks directly on top of Ganondorf, amounting to a ton at least. As far as I can see, only one block was being supported by something else, and it was supported by the one actually on Ganondorf. Of course, Ganondorf procedes to break out of this cushing wieght with nothing but his body. We can cleary see he jumps up, slams his skull into a ton of stone, breaking it, and then transforms. He's moving pretty fast, so I can conclude that Ganondorf's body > stone.

YouTube video

Start at the beginning, go to about 0:55. He makes swords from nothing at 1:25. A bit slow for a block, though.

I am not sure of Nayru's love origin, cant recall saying its not allowed so I will leave that. A meteor is a base reality object, again thats like asking me to prove gravity exists or works the same way in FF, meteors are real occurances and this spell just happens to summon a few of them.

It comes up almost every Link thread. Every time, you declare it featless and disregard it. Same thing I'm doing here. Except I'm asking for feats from an attack, and proof that they are actual meteors. As far as I know, normal metoers don't transport you to space.

I think its a much better one than assuming Ganons skin and robes made the noise of metal striking metal.

Still, certain sound effects indicate this is so. Ganondorf's robes don't tear when Link slashes them in cutscene, and it makes a similar sound to metal. His robes didn't burn when Valoo torched him, either. Plus, Ganondorf's skin is stronger than stone at the very least, and close to impenetrable to non-bane weapons at best.

That looks like gameplay though....not a cutscene...

Yet it's a cutscene.

YouTube video

The cutscene starts at 2:48, where Link rolls away from Ganondorf's sword, slams him with a jumping spin attack, and then stabs him in the skull with the Master Sword.

Your evidence that nothing was burned was based on something other than the fiery looking head touching something.

It looked like fire, too. We've been over this. Both of them were part of Ganon and neither displayed any fiery traits.

I dont need to provide evidence as its been shown in this thread already by other people. How powerful FF enemies are in comparison to LoZ has already been argued. Also you say that none of this is good enough, how so? if they have greater weapons and these more experianced warriors are>one boy with what, light arrows then how is that not enough? theres enough A>B here to actually mean something.

It still doesn't mean anything, really. You're still assuming 1) They have greater weapons, 2) They are more experienced, and 3) They have fought things more powerful than Ganondorf. If you want to claim A>B so A>C, you must first establish A>B, or the entire argument falls apart.

It could actually be neither, thats my assumption and your assumption. Mine being more likely as the robes were not cut and its the sound of metal hitting metal. Theres nothing for me to think it was Ganon getting hit.

Actually, because prior evidence indicates that Ganondorf's clothing is indestructible and Link striking Ganondorf makes the same sound, it favors me somewhat. Ganondorf's skin is now upgraded to >steel.

Wont be able to move? not sure theres any indication of how hot those flames are and more importantly, the crystal/teleport move of Ganons is of unkown casttime and more likely very slow considering how long has to do it.

Sorry, won't be able to move without getting burned or stopping to cast. All of FF spells also have unknown cast times, so that point is moot. And considering how fast he can do it, it's likely got a quick cast time.

gameplay does not count for a canon use, that does not mean the spell does not exist, it means that the character did not canonically use it at that very point. This does not discredit the fact that the spell does what its supposed to do which is summon meteors.

Spell created meteors with no canon feats. Until you get that, Meteor is worthless.

It did not blow out the floor, they fell away in perfect block formation from the center so pure damage did not do that. The range and charge of the punch being damn slow also works against it.

Slow? Did you watch the video? Anyway, he punches, makes shockwave, ground shakes, knocks the blocks that were not there before away. He could still use the Death Touch he used on the Sage of Water, too.

YouTube video

See 2:48

YouTube video

1:37

Theres no indication that link was "paralyzed" or that the waves affect more than maybe 2 targets their area of affect which was low in itself. The fairy was moving around fine, she just said she could not help him but nice reach..

Watch the video again, I've got it right above. Yes, that purple sparks all over Link's body and the fact that he stopped moving don't indicate that he's paralyzed /sarcasm. And yes, the fairy couldn't get close even after it was over. Until you get the feats I keep asking for, they get paralyzed and unable to get into melee range.

Link and Zelda are not shaking or hardly moving at all, yet the castle is falling down around them...

I still don't understand what you're talking about. The castle is collapsing with minimal shaking. This does not indicate poor construction, but the opposite.

First its not instant, I like how you try and claim every spell we dont see Ganon cast is automatically instant. Phantom Ganon did not resist at all and he had to be held over the Gap to be sucked in, so its not simply a hole in the ground.

First, it is instant. I do not like how you try to claim every spell we don't see Ganondorf cast is automatically hours long despite every other spell he has ever cast has been instant. We can clearly see that it starts at the same time Ganondorf starts talking. Now watch it again.

YouTube video

Phantom Ganon needed to be TK'd to it because he wasn't directly over thing. It actually is, quite simply, a hole in the ground. Ganondorf need only open it under the party and he wins.

So your assuming he/midna uses TK to fly, then your assuming theres tonnes of TK power behind that flight therefores his Tk is in tonnes? lol...that is some of the biggest assumption/reaching I have seen you do in this thread.

Cyner covered this.

The fire is the molten liquid that the fortress has become after yet another volley of Star destroyer fire 😉

No, im pretty sure it's just the wreckage of those Star Destroys after they self destructed.

Phantom Ganon needed to be TK'd to it because he wasn't directly over thing. It actually is, quite simply, a hole in the ground. Ganondorf need only open it under the party and he wins.

Why couldn't he just open it directly below Phantom Ganon? It looked to me like it was something to do with the place rather than Ganon himself, seeing as he specifically opens it in a place that then becomes a warp-zone-thing. I'm guessing that Ganon just manipulates the warp-zone to send him somewhere he shouldn't go.

Thats a pretty good point, could be based on that room as he did not put the portal under phantom. It may also only suck in his own minions, it did not effect link and he never even tried it on link.

Ill reply to the other posts when I have some time.

Originally posted by The Scenario

Spell created meteors with no canon feats. Until you get that, Meteor is worthless.

Who honestly gives a shit if Meteor is featless? You can say to most magics and projectiles of every game and that doesn't make them less dangerous. Meteor is still one of the stronger spells in FF and a lot better than Ganon's projectiles in every boss fight he has appeared in.

YouTube video

This portal thing has been wanked way too much. Here's some thoughts I have of it.

1. Phantom Ganon wasn't even resisting, as BT said. TK? No proof.

2. Ganon has never tried to banish Link between dimensions. The only time he has banished a Link what in Four Sword Adventures but there's escape as long as the Stalfos are killed.

3. Phantom Ganon is a creation of Ganon. It makes sense if he can easily dispose what he has made.

4. Someone once mentioned that being sent to the gap between dimensions burns the victim. For one, Phantom Ganon was already burning. Two, all boss enemies burn the same way (Gohma).

Maybe it doesn't have suction properties at all, and has to be TK'd or walked into, like Scenario said the first time.

I don't see anything to indicate that it's a warp point Ganon manipulates either.

Edit: @ Sin 'cause he made me lol.

Originally posted by Sin_Volvagia
Who honestly gives a shit if Meteor is featless? You can say to most magics and projectiles of every game and that doesn't make them less dangerous. Meteor is still one of the stronger spells in FF and a lot better than Ganon's projectiles in every boss fight he has appeared in.

Well, if all the spells are featless then it's pretty hard to say it's stronger than anything, wouldn't you agree? I can't claim a Goomba could beat Cloud in an arm wrestle without a strength feat > than Cloud's best, could I?

Originally posted by Sin_Volvagia
This portal thing has been wanked way too much. Here's some thoughts I have of it.

1. Phantom Ganon wasn't even resisting, as BT said. TK? No proof.

2. Ganon has never tried to banish Link between dimensions. The only time he has banished a Link what in Four Sword Adventures but there's escape as long as the Stalfos are killed.

3. Phantom Ganon is a creation of Ganon. It makes sense if he can easily dispose what he has made.

4. Someone once mentioned that being sent to the gap between dimensions burns the victim. For one, Phantom Ganon was already burning. Two, all boss enemies burn the same way (Gohma).

1. 'cause he just got his ass beaten. Take note that Phantom Ganon cannot fly while unconscious. Link reflects his spells, and it knocks him to the ground. Yet somehow, when he was defeated he remained able to fly. I wonder how that happened?

2. Master Sword. 👆

3. This isn't some Multiple Man duplicate. There's no reason to believe it's that simple. Quit picking and choosing when you want what "makes sense" to be acceptable.

4. Neat.

Having the Master Sword doest mean beat the 'tried' part. (and then only if dimension thing is dark magic)

'sides it takes a while to activate.

Assuming that portal does not have the suction powers, then yeah, the Master Sword would beat the tried part. Ganon's TK does not affect Link while holding the Master Sword.