Kain vs Team

Originally posted by Burning thought
This has not been proven, it just seems to copy what he does but theres nothing to suggest is just as strong, as fast, as clever etc

Based on what? I think the heaviest thing Mercer can lift is a car or something from what I can recall. And Mercer cannot reform without mass, if his body parts were torn off, like Kain he would not be able to regenerate physically.

No thats not true, Kain did nothing to stop Raziels obvious attack which was indeed very slow and much slower than what Kain has reacted to before. Kain was also badly weakened after taking the reaver to the chest. Iirc Dante was not harmed before that point and actually tried, he was bested by a better swordsman. Theres no room for PIS. vergil was superior to him at the time. Raziel on the other hand is weaker in every way than Kain.

Raz; Can manage to lift 45tons. Alex: 'Easily' carries cars, helicopters and tanks (70tons). Why easily? Because he can carry a tank and still run and jump at full speed. Throwing tanks is childs-play for him.

Dante had a fight with Vergil... and you think he wasn't hurt? Wouldn't gloat about loosing to a weaker foe. Stabbed by a slower attack which later made him gain powers, im seeing PIS.

Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
Maybe it's just my body, but I've never had a problem with blood leaking out. This would mean it's perfectly sealed, you know, so the blood doesn't leak. In order to drain it, Kain would have to create some sort of opening to get the blood out. And since he's never made an opening on anything durable, well, you know the rest.

Kain doesn't have feats to suggest he can perfectly manipulate blood in whatever way he chooses. Blood Shower could be like a magnet to something like nails. It pulls it one way and one way only. I cannot use a magnet to throw a nail any direction I choose. There is kind of a cool thing of Bowser never taking any injuries, ever. Even a bruise brings blood to the surface, and Bowser has never been bruised by anything, not even his supernova. His blood vessels are just as ubar as his skin.

No it would just mean that blood does not push towards an entity whos forcing it towards them. And the opening assuming the blood doesnt just burst through soft tissue like under the eyes, inside the nose etc which has no feats then the magic Kain uses may just open the body for the blood to run towards Kain, through sorcery, not physical harm.

No he has feats of moving blood however, which is what hes doing here. And assuming your right, its a magnet, if the metal the magnet is pulling cannot get to the magnet then its still going to be pushing against the surface. No one here is going to survive all their blood pouring through their body to one side, they would die almost instantly. Has Mario ever bled? or Peach?

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
This is not proof it's a seperate teleport.

We know: Kain can teleport.
We see him do so in a cutscene. The cutscene teleport has no reason to be a seperate teleport other thna your assertions that it looks different. Kain does not learn this other teleport during the course of LoK. It's never mentioned that he has a seperate teleport.

This must be the same teleport he already has. You are assuming he has a whole new teleport based on difference between gameplay and a cutscene. The problem is that obviously the cutscene takes precedence, and there's no proof of a seperate teleport.

Imagine Link had ... Purple! Fire arrows in a cutscene, it would be wrong for me to assume these were new and seperate fire arrows, and that Link has a new spell. This is what you are doing.

No assumptions. Kain's teleportation takes time.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
This is not proof it's a seperate teleport.

We know: Kain can teleport.
We see him do so in a cutscene. The cutscene teleport has no reason to be a seperate teleport other thna your assertions that it looks different. Kain does not learn this other teleport during the course of LoK. It's never mentioned that he has a seperate teleport.

This must be the same teleport he already has. You are assuming he has a whole new teleport based on difference between gameplay and a cutscene. The problem is that obviously the cutscene takes precedence, and there's no proof of a seperate teleport.

Imagine Link had ... Purple! Fire arrows in a cutscene, it would be wrong for me to assume these were new and seperate fire arrows, and that Link has a new spell. This is what you are doing.

No assumptions. Kain's teleportation takes time.

Two cutscenes, one gameplay supported by canon, three different teleports.

Your assertion that their the same teleport, despite Kain using the dimension reaver to do the green one which is completly different is unfounded.

No I am not, I am saying that a teleport thats far faster, used differently and uses unique animation and comes from a sword that Kains not using in the cutscene is different, your trying to reach for it being the same.

Originally posted by Son of Sparda
Yeah but throwing them in the air several hundred meters is bound to warrant a hundred tons of strength at least.

Even if they are some what destroyed.

He can do the same to helicopters too.

Link me to Raziel's 100 ton feat? I admit I haven't played LoK for some time but I don't remember it.

Yeh I guess so.

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These blocks have been calculated to be about 45+ tonnes each in weight, Raziel can push them around with ease and his lightest tap can send it sliding along a meter or so. He pushes two on top of eachother as well, although he does not pick them up and throw them like Mercer can throw Tank wreckage.

Originally posted by Burning thought
No it would just mean that blood does not push towards an entity whos forcing it towards them. And the opening assuming the blood doesnt just burst through soft tissue like under the eyes, inside the nose etc which has no feats then the magic Kain uses may just open the body for the blood to run towards Kain, through sorcery, not physical harm.

No he has feats of moving blood however, which is what hes doing here. And assuming your right, its a magnet, if the metal the magnet is pulling cannot get to the magnet then its still going to be pushing against the surface. No one here is going to survive all their blood pouring through their body to one side, they would die almost instantly. Has Mario ever bled? or Peach?

That's a problem, because Bowser doesn't have any soft tissue under his eyes or inside his nose. It wasn't me who first suggested the opening, either, it was you.

Kain would still have to get it out of his blood vessels and veins. And Kain's spell has no feats above making it happen to a normal human.

No, Mario and Peach do not bleed.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Punches with the same strength, even gameplay attacks have the same damage as Dantes attacks. Nothing disproves this.

Raz; Can manage to lift 45tons. Alex: 'Easily' carries cars, helicopters and tanks (70tons). Why easily? Because he can carry a tank and still run and jump at full speed. Throwing tanks is childs-play for him.

Dante had a fight with Vergil... and you think he wasn't hurt? Wouldn't gloat about loosing to a weaker foe. Stabbed by a slower attack which later made him gain powers, im seeing PIS.

Nothing proves that Doppel is as intelligent, fast and skilled as Dante. One cutscene proves it can copy a few simple moves.

He can also easily push 100 tonnes, and he does not carry tanks. He carries part of a tank wreckage which is about 60-67 tonnes. This does not put him far above Kain, if at all and Kains strikes will still hurt him a lot more.

We dont see him get hurt until he gets impaled. I would if its to prove the point of PIS. it happened twice, a slower attack disarmed him, and a slow impale defeated him.

Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
That's a problem, because Bowser doesn't have any soft tissue under his eyes or inside his nose. It wasn't me who first suggested the opening, either, it was you.

Kain would still have to get it out of his blood vessels and veins. And Kain's spell has no feats above making it happen to a normal human.

No, Mario and Peach do not bleed.

Proof for these claims? he has eyes, therefore he has skin under them, theres a lot softer tissue inside the body and blood would not even have to break veins to screw him up.

Its affect on a normal human would be the same here, its a sorcerous power Bowser has never faced. Hes doomed.

didnt think so.

The numbers for those blocks let Raziel lift I think 43 tons over his head if I remember right, tops. Maybe 45.

but yeah, there's no evidence the cutscene teleport is a new teleport or seperate teleport. Still waiting for you to prove it's seperate.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
The numbers for those blocks let Raziel lift I think 43 tons over his head if I remember right, tops. Maybe 45.

but yeah, there's no evidence the cutscene teleport is a new teleport or seperate teleport. Still waiting for you to prove it's seperate.

based on the easy moving of one block. Despite him easily moving 2 on top of eachother and pushing htem along with ease.

Yes there is. Your just ignoring evidence like you usually do. You cannot apprently see the difference between a Reaver invoked spell that takes the form of green magic in comparison to a white hand movement in the cutscene or simply disapearing in the SR 1 cutscene. if you cant see differences like that then theres no good shwing you anything.

Reaching for this is not going to help you btw. Kain can still even use the white magic teleport to do exactly the same as the green, only slightly slower.

Both the "green" teleport and the one he uses after the fight with the Elder God have about the same start-up time.

Hes not fallible, your using it completly wrong and have no idea how to use it by the sounds of things. Apprently a guy who is simply claiming what the sword does based on what hes actually seen is fallible, and your example would indeed be fallible but its nothing to compare to what Kains actually saying. kain simply says "on strike" and it makes sense too, why you belive without evidence that Kain has to cut someone to take souls is confusing to say the least.

I think you don't know what it means, which is that his words are not absolute and have reason to be doubted. Kain never takes someones soul without slicing them. Trying to say he can is nothing but speculation without a shred of real evidence. Not to mention, as I've said, its just your interpretation of a word.

name the feat that shows Dante is above Raz

Dante is a casual bullet timer, and can shatter rock with a fist.

and no thats not PIS, Kains is, but Dante actually tries to stop vergil and fails. Its a fair fight and Dante is bested easily by slower moves. Obviously his reaction time is not as fast as his blind slashes.

First of all, in the cutscene I'm watching Dante is staggered and can't defend himself. Second on all, Vergil is fast enough to scoop bullets out of the air, being blitzed by him is no shame. And Kain gets put on his ass by a weak-ass slow-ass slash by Raziel before he gets his heart ripped out anyway.

Off his back when he could teleport multiple times to make sure their all away from him? they have no chance and his blood shower works on all of them. And why? I dont recall him canonically taking much damage.

Yes, Kain is no bullet-timer, and sooner or later Dante will hit him, he's fast enough to find Kain whereever he teleports. It's very doubtful that he'll get a shower off. Doesn't he need to be very close to use it? And it won't work on Mercer at least, who has no blood. And he's durable enough to survive direct hits from hellfire missiles, tank shells and hunters, notably some hunters are stronger than Alex who can toss tanks around. He also seems completely unaffected from falls; even ones from the top levels of skyscrapers. Kain has no chance of hurting him.

Dante is not omnicient, he would not know Kain is behind him and would not react in the 0.2 he has before he is dead.

Dante can cut bullets in half from 3 meters away. Average handgun speed is 1100 feet per second. You do the math. 😐

Kain can also cast Inspire hate to make one of them kill the others, or mind control.

I don't know if it'll work, though its doubtful he'll be able to before DAnte blows his head off.

based on the easy moving of one block. Despite him easily moving 2 on top of eachother and pushing htem along with ease.

Yes there is. Your just ignoring evidence like you usually do.

You cannot apprently see the difference between a Reaver invoked spell that takes the form of green magic in comparison to a white hand movement in the cutscene or simply disapearing in the SR 1 cutscene. if you cant see differences like that then theres no good shwing you anything.

Both the "green" teleport and the one he uses after the fight with the Elder God have about the same start-up time.

Reaching for this is not going to help you btw. Kain can still even use the white magic teleport to do exactly the same as the green, only slightly slower.

The teleport is too slow to be practical against fast opponents.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Proof for these claims? he has eyes, therefore he has skin under them, theres a lot softer tissue inside the body and blood would not even have to break veins to screw him up.

Its affect on a normal human would be the same here, its a sorcerous power Bowser has never faced. Hes doomed.

didnt think so.

Do you really have to ask? Supernova. Said explosion is a lot more than just pure force. Yeah, it would actually. In order for that to do anything at all Kain would have to maintain the pull, or else the spell would fail and Bowser's body will resume it's normal movement. For Kain to stand there, Ridley and Kessler have to not move at all. To be blunt, I doubt Kain can win this. He only has five minutes to take down Kessler who is easily his peer in speed, if not his superior. And Ridley who's flight speed shits on Kain. Technically these guys can just stall until the Fuzzys arrive, effectively screwing over everyone.

This sorcerous power has never faced durability. Ever. It's doomed.

Wasn't even relevant.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I think you don't know what it means, which is that his words are not absolute and have reason to be doubted. Kain never takes someones soul without without slicing them. Trying to say he can is nothing but speculation without a shred or real evidence. Nottomention, as I've said, its just your interpretation of a word.

Dante is a casual bullet timer, and can shatter rock with a fist.

First of all, in the cutscene I'm watching Dante is staggered and can't defend himself. Second on all, Vergil is fast enough to scoop bullets out of the air, being blitzed by him is no shame. And Kain gets put on his ass by a weak-ass slow-ass slash by Raziel before he gets his heart ripped out anyway.

Yes, Kain is no bullet-timer, and sooner or later Dante will hit him, he's fast enough to find Kain whereever he teleports. It's very doubtful that he'll get a shower off, doesn't he need to be very close. and it won't work on Mercer at least, who has no blood. And he's durable enough to survive direct hits from hellfire missiles, tank shells and hunters, notably some hunters a stronger than Alex who can toss tanks around. He also seems completely unaffected from falls; even ones from the top levels of skyscrapers. Kain has no chance of hurting him.

Dante can cut bullets in half from 3 meters away. Average handgun speed is 1100 feet per second. You do the math. 😐

I don't know if it'll work, though its doubtful he'll be able to before DAnte blows his head off.

Ofc I do, I also know that someone who uses a power first hand, obviously knows what its doing because he can see it happen. If he can take the souls of enemies just by striking with a sword hes got in his hands then its not fallible. If he claimed he can do it to anyone and anything regardless of spiritual resistances then he would be fallible. Kain never takes someones soul without slicing them, therefore thats evidence he cannot take their souls without slicing them? No, wrong....

kain and especially when using the reaver is more than strong enough to slice through most in his universe.

Dante predicts aim and moves, anyone can predict the aim of someone else, the only time he did otherwise I think was against lady but he hardly moved tbh. Shatter rock? when, the little statue whos head just exploded?

After being disarmed Dante staggers yet still actually attempts to stop verigl and fails, you see his hands on Vergils sword. Weak? based on what, Kain can take Raziels strikes without a scratch on him, the reaver and w/e punishment Raziel puts on Kain in their fight weakens him enough. Kain then shows PIS by doing nothing.

hes never done so, Kain can teleport too quickly for Dante to react to. Kains average reaction time is 0.3 seconds beyond the average for a human and Kain can make concious movements in this time as well. I have not seen such from Dante who is fast but not as good at reactions. Hes never going to turn around his whole body to somehow find Kain behind him and strike/block before Kan kills him in 0.2. In what cutscene do we see this? weve seen him take one missle, I dont see it beating the PSI of 100< tonnes strength behind a sword.

Average bullet from a gun, Dantes reactions are slower than the speed of his bullets.

Yes because Dantes guns have shown to be able to deal that much damage to a guy who can take tens of thousands of tonnes of PSI from Raziel without a scratch. Bullets as I pointed out in another thread, even the biggest magnums only make a small amount of PSI in comparison.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Nothing proves that Doppel is as intelligent, fast and skilled as Dante. One cutscene proves it can copy a few simple moves.

He can also easily push 100 tonnes, and he does not carry tanks. He carries part of a tank wreckage which is about 60-67 tonnes. This does not put him far above Kain, if at all and Kains strikes will still hurt him a lot more.

We dont see him get hurt until he gets impaled. I would if its to prove the point of PIS. it happened twice, a slower attack disarmed him, and a slow impale defeated him.

Cutscene proves that it can do what Dante can (in combat at least) Seeing as it was a boss, its sentient. Even the gameplay shows that the strength is even.

Raz's 'lift' strength is 45tons, Kains 50. Alex easily 60tons. Raz slowly pushes them, Alex runs faster then cars/up buildings while carrying a tank and can throws them far.

Yeah, the Stupidity Induced for the Plot is like that.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
No, based on Raziel's most impressive showing of strength in that entire scene, when he tosses the blocks a short distance, with a clear show of effort.

Irony. Pot, kettle, black, no u, ect.
Because a gameplay animation and a cutscene animation can be different, and often are. For example, in LoZ, the ending blow in a cutscene causes Link to jump far higher and do a flip, ect, while in gameplay it's more modest. Also:

A.G. has highlighted a key similarity.

The teleport is too slow to be practical against fast opponents.

There was no effort, your reaching. Raziel pushes with a prod one of those blocks a meter or so with ease as well.

Colours, source of power of teleport, all unique.

Which makes your argument pretty pointless anyway.

Obviously not, because it can strike at 0.2 from random angles and places and most of those here have few reaction time feats to put them above human apart from perhaps Dante.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Cutscene proves that it can do what Dante can (in combat at least) Seeing as it was a boss, its sentient. Even the gameplay shows that the strength is even.

Raz's 'lift' strength is 45tons, Kains 50. Alex easily 60tons. Raz slowly pushes them, Alex runs faster then cars/up buildings while carrying a tank and can throws them far.

Yeah, the Stupidity Induced for the Plot is like that.

It can copy what basic moves Dante displated.

False, and Kains would be far more as Raziel can do all this easily, and Kain can beat Raz easily.

Dante was not stupid at any point, he even attempted to stop vergil. He was outmatched by someone superior. Kain was beaten by someone vastly inferior, PIS.

Lmao. I just noticed an Ad at the bottom of the page saying "Lower Your Blood Pressure."

Dante can actually shoot FAMAS rounds out of the air with his own at point blank range.

He can also catch bullets with his teeth

FAMAS rounds have a MV of mach 2

so yeah

Reacting/predicting ladies aim, again....

Although I would like to see him catch bullets with his teeth.

There was no effort, your reaching. Raziel pushes with a prod one of those blocks a meter or so with ease as well.

Colours, source of power of teleport, all unique.

Which makes your argument pretty pointless anyway.

Obviously not, because it can strike at 0.2 from random angles and places and most of those here have few reaction time feats to put them above human apart from perhaps Dante.

BT, I think you need to watch the scene again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsbrwIvDKIE

Also, what does PSI mean?