Darth Maul vs Kas'im

Originally posted by truejedi
What is the perceived link between this fight and the number of forms mastered by Bane? That is a bit of an aside.

Doesn't the term "mastered" leave something open to interpretation? It's not concrete. An individual typically held in high regard can say that I've mastered the fine art of making toast, while another of equally high regard can say that I still have much to learn. What exactly constitutes mastery?

With that being said… let us suppose (albeit unjustly) that Bane had indeed mastered all seven forms. Does that make him a deadlier swordsman than Darth Maul? Really? What if Darth Maul had mastered Juyo to an extent that surpassed Bane’s mastery of, say, Djem So. What then? This argument can also be utilized with Kas’im (or anyone else) as the subject opposite Maul. It was stated that Qui-Gon Jinn had mastered Ataru. However, his “mastery” of this form pales in comparison to Yoda’s mastery of said form. I’m not saying Maul is a deadlier swordsman, or vice versa, only that this needs to be taken into consideration.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Bane is the only metric we have to judge Kas'im. It is perfectly reasonable to look for a way to quantify that.

Agreed.

knowing how many forms he knew teaches us NOTHING about him as a combatant though. The only thing that matters is how good he was at the single form he uses in his fight with kas'sim.

Originally posted by truejedi
knowing how many forms he knew teaches us NOTHING about him as a combatant though. The only thing that matters is how good he was at the single form he uses in his fight with kas'sim.

Yeah man... that's what I said. 😕

JT, just about everything you've just said is a non sequitur. (Except for where you agree with me, seemingly in contradiction to the rest of your tirade.)

Go back and look for where anyone wanted to ABC Kasim and Maul by way of Bane and tell me, because then we can give you the meds for people who imagine stuff.

Originally posted by truejedi
knowing how many forms he knew teaches us NOTHING about him as a combatant though. The only thing that matters is how good he was at the single form he uses in his fight with kas'sim.

And then multiply your fail by two because Gideon wasn't looking for the number of forms Bane knew but the quality of one of them. So the reason for the discussion is what you are telling us to talk about. If the best you can do is tell us we're off topic then maybe you could take the five minutes to look in your own sources and find the answer.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
JT, just about everything you've just said is a non sequitur. (Except for where you agree with me, seemingly in contradiction to the rest of your tirade.)

Go back and look for where anyone wanted to ABC Kasim and Maul by way of Bane and tell me, because then we can give you the meds for people who imagine stuff.

Look at what I wrote to JT. Then apply it to yourself, only remove the props for agreeing with me.

And then multiply your fail by two because Gideon wasn't looking for the number of forms Bane knew but the quality of one of them.

no u.

So the reason for the discussion is what you are telling us to talk about. If the best you can do is tell us we're off topic then maybe you could take the five minutes to look in your own sources and find the answer.

I'm asking the simple question of what does Bane's number of forms have to do with anything? Since you bothered to ANSWER my last comment by basically saying "YES THEY R 2 PERTINENT", your tactic here of saying you are agreeing with me doesn't work. Why bother to argue with your last comment that they do matter, if here you are going to claim they don't?

Confusing to me. So stop it. I don't sleep anymore, and i am too easily confused these days.

TJ in case you haven't noticed, you're not JT.

he did try to apply it to me directly after that though with:

Look at what I wrote to JT. Then apply it to yourself, only remove the props for agreeing with me.

And then multiply your fail by two because Gideon wasn't looking for the number of forms Bane knew but the quality of one of them

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
JT, just about everything you've just said is a non sequitur. (Except for where you agree with me, seemingly in contradiction to the rest of your tirade.)

Go back and look for where anyone wanted to ABC Kasim and Maul by way of Bane and tell me, because then we can give you the meds for people who imagine stuff.

Look at what I wrote to JT. Then apply it to yourself, only remove the props for agreeing with me.

And then multiply your fail by two because Gideon wasn't looking for the number of forms Bane knew but the quality of one of them. So the reason for the discussion is what you are telling us to talk about. If the best you can do is tell us we're off topic then maybe you could take the five minutes to look in your own sources and find the answer.

Ok... tell me now... where did I refer to an ABC argument? Happy Easter!

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Ok... tell me now... where did I refer to an ABC argument? Happy Easter!

With that being said… let us suppose (albeit unjustly) that Bane had indeed mastered all seven forms. Does that make him a deadlier swordsman than Darth Maul? Really? What if Darth Maul had mastered Juyo to an extent that surpassed Bane’s mastery of, say, Djem So. What then? This argument can also be utilized with Kas’im (or anyone else) as the subject opposite Maul. It was stated that Qui-Gon Jinn had mastered Ataru. However, his “mastery” of this form pales in comparison to Yoda’s mastery of said form. I’m not saying Maul is a deadlier swordsman, or vice versa, only that this needs to be taken into consideration.

But whatever. You weren't actually being stupid and my post is pretty much out of line. Sorry.

TJ, you on the other hand...

need to sleep less, so that my rambling attempts at being good at stuff will make more sense, rather than less.

Nicely done.

Bane's own level of proficiency is, perhaps, key to this entire argument. He clearly holds Kas'im in high regard, like Darsha Assant held Anoon Bondara. From her perspective (the narration of Shadow Hunter), he was the most skilled duelist in the Order. Subsequent references in other sources confirm that Bondara was only one of the most skilled duelists of the era.

If Bane is not a master of multiple forms, or any form, he's not in a position to realistically dictate how skilled Kas'im is. Contrast this with the sources on Darth Maul, which are objective and without bias (the Complete Visual Dictionary, the Ultimate Visual Guide, et al.)

Originally posted by Gideon
Nicely done.

Bane's own level of proficiency is, perhaps, key to this entire argument. He clearly holds Kas'im in high regard, like Darsha Assant held Anoon Bondara. From her perspective (the narration of Shadow Hunter), he was the most skilled duelist in the Order. Subsequent references in other sources confirm that Bondara was only one of the most skilled duelists of the era.

If Bane is not a master of multiple forms, or any form, he's not in a position to realistically dictate how skilled Kas'im is. Contrast this with the sources on Darth Maul, which are objective and without bias (the Complete Visual Dictionary, the Ultimate Visual Guide, et al.)

As I remember, Bane memorized the forms well enough to match Kas'im when the later was using a weapon he was familiar with. Bane was winning the first half of the fight largely because he knew everything Kas'im could do with a saber. This came from hours upon hours of time spent dueling, but also hours spent memorizing specific forms and the "combinations" of those forms.

Add to that his ability to teach Zannah whatever form would be most effective (implying that he could also have taught her Makashi, for example) it certainly seems as though Bane is competent to judge Kas'im. I will defer to someone with sources, however, if there is something I've overlooked.

i dont agree agree with that. you can memorize something to the point where it becomes mechanical, without necessarily understanding it. truly, the reason why bane was winning at all was due to the fact that he memorized every combination kas'im made, as well as the counters to those combinations, which is why he began to lose when kas'im switched to an unrecognizable form. that in itself leads me to believe then that bane's understanding of kas'im's teachings and abilities were purely mechanical and automatic (though frankly thats not his fault. katas are not a very efficent way of teaching people to fight)...

aside from that, bane hardly had a wide variety of teachers. it should go without saying that any opinion he has of kas'im would be heavily biased...

Over the course of his training Bane had seen every possible sequence, series, move, and trick with the double-bladed lightsaber, and he knew how to counter and nullify them all.

This is a very interesting point.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
And then multiply your fail by two because Gideon wasn't looking for the number of forms Bane knew but the quality of one of them.

Actually, the "fail" is with Gideon here, provided that this question doesn't make any sense, given the rules set for lightsaber engagements in the SWU. Who cares about the "quality" of a formal weapon training when people like Nomi Sunrider can pick up a lightsaber and handle the weapon "like a master" without one minute of actual instruction? Likewise Kas'im told Bane that the latter has "moved beyond forms" due to his strong connection to the force. The same can be said about Anakin's duels with the likes of Cin Drallig or Dooku. Those were two individuals who dedicated their lives to learning and understanding the art of lightsaber combat, which didn't help them to defeat the Chosen One. Do you really think this can be attributed to Anakin's "higher quality" of a certain lightsaber form (e.g. Djem So) - or is that rather a result of Anakin's strong connection to the force (which the RotS novel heavily implies)?

I also don't understand why it's necessary to use Bane here in order to compare Maul and Kas'im. Bane is most likely more powerful in the force than both individuals, while he has most likely gone through less training in Martial Arts / lightsaber forms than both Maul and Kas'im.

Using what we know about the two opponents here, I'd say that Kas'im maybe has the edge on Maul when it comes to natural force connection (shielding himself from Bane's final force attack that collapsed the Rakatan temple was impressive). Maul's martial art skill might give him an advantage in close quarter combat (see his duel with Qui-Gon). Yet when thinking about sheer lightsaber ability, one has to take into consideration that Maul kept a rigorous training regime but was, according to Dooku, a little bit unrefined ("skilled animal"😉. Kas'im, on the contrary, also studied and taught lightsaber skills on a daily basis. A dedication that has led to supposed mastery of all forms to a level of nigh perfection with the ability to switch form and weapons (dual-blade, two-blades) while in combat.

Based on that observations, one might conclude that the two opponents are equipped with very similar skills, with a possible edge for Kas'im because of (possible) greater force mastery and the fact that he would know Maul's lightsaber style inside-out (including the limitations the double-blade causes), while he might have some tricks up his sleeve that Maul doesn't know (and won't survive).

thats a very logically dawn conclusion 👆

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
i dont agree agree with that. you can memorize something to the point where it becomes mechanical, without necessarily understanding it. truly, the reason why bane was winning at all was due to the fact that he memorized every combination kas'im made, as well as the counters to those combinations, which is why he began to lose when kas'im switched to an unrecognizable form. that in itself leads me to believe then that bane's understanding of kas'im's teachings and abilities were purely mechanical and automatic (though frankly thats not his fault. katas are not a very efficent way of teaching people to fight)...

aside from that, bane hardly had a wide variety of teachers. it should go without saying that any opinion he has of kas'im would be heavily biased...

Could you please explain the difference between "knowing every possible sequence in any of the forms" and "understanding" the forms?

Edit:
I never dislike the things Nai writes.

Red Nemesis
wut?

You pointed out the exact reason why I wanted to know Bane's relative skill.

RN
As I remember, Bane memorized the forms well enough to match Kas'im when the later was using a weapon he was familiar with. Bane was winning the first half of the fight largely because he knew everything Kas'im could do with a saber. This came from hours upon hours of time spent dueling, but also hours spent memorizing specific forms and the "combinations" of those forms.

As I mentioned earlier, Count Dooku claimed in Labyrinth of Evil to General Grievous that he could demonstrate maneuvers and techniques from all of the standing members of the Jedi High Council and inflict them in assaults against the general.

Despite this, and the fact that Dooku was once one of the Temple's foremost combat instructors, no source states that Count Dooku is anything other than a master of Makashi, nor do we assume as much.

Darth Vader, in the Rise of Darth Vader, demonstrated a form unique and unprecedented to his enemies, borrowing techniques from all lightsaber forms.

Despite this, no source states that Vader is a master of anything other than Djem So.

The fact that he was able to competently stand against Kas'im does not mean that he is a Master of any specific form. As the narration concluded, Bane was winning solely because he was the more powerful Force user.

RN
Add to that his ability to teach Zannah whatever form would be most effective (implying that he could also have taught her Makashi, for example) it certainly seems as though Bane is competent to judge Kas'im. I will defer to someone with sources, however, if there is something I've overlooked.

There's no doubt that Bane was proficient in lightsaber combat, perhaps in all forms. But I asked you if he was a Master of any. It's rather like Assant's ignorant perception of Anoon Bondara. She is a trained Jedi Knight, she has presumably witnessed other duelists and instructors in action, yet concludes Bondara is the greatest duelist alive.

Other sources disprove this. Why is Bane's perception much more acute [when it comes to an objective analysis of Bane'sKAS'IM's skills]?

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Could you please explain the difference between "knowing every possible sequence in any of the forms" and "understanding" the forms?

Edit:
I never dislike the things Nai writes.

there is a difference between memorization, and understanding.

blaxican is very proficent in computers, i am not. recently i was having problems getting a game i bought to install on my computer and when i asked him what to do he told me to go to the website for the video card i own and download the latest drivers, which i did, and now the game runs.

i have no idea what a driver is, nor what it does, or why, but i remember what to do if the same problem arises so ill do what he told me to do. thats the difference between a memorization and understanding.

Originally posted by Gideon

There's no doubt that Bane was proficient in lightsaber combat, perhaps in all forms. But I asked you if he was a Master of any. It's rather like Assant's ignorant perception of Anoon Bondara. She is a trained Jedi Knight, she has presumably witnessed other duelists and instructors in action, yet concludes Bondara is the greatest duelist alive.

Other sources disprove this. Why is Bane's perception much more acute?

I would say that the various accolades Kas'im receives from people that are not Bane (especially from the leaders of the Brotherhood, whose names I cannot remember) suggest that Bane's estimation of Kas'im is not inaccurate.

I am not particularly concerned with Bane at this point. If you think that a given level of power is conducive to your argument then take it as given and make your case. The conclusion you reach will be the optimal case. Then, in the interest of a full examination, take the opposite as a given. This will be suboptimal. This way we can move on and you get to stack contingencies behind your argument. You can cover your ass and avoid any chance that preformed opinions will be the flaw in your argument.