Cloud Vs. Zidane

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Thunder and Blizzard (for example).

Still... How comes Zidane's abilities are more than Cloud's? You can say this when he's in his Trance form, but Zidane has not abilities at his disposal in his regular form. I suppose he starts the battle with his regular form...

Alright, let's say Cloud has Blizzard and Thunder. He doesn't seem to be much of a mage. He's more of a close range fighter. I don't think those will help him all that much.

I can't say for certain that his abilities are more advanced because, again, we have no idea the extent either one of them are. But it seems to me that a lesser powered genome angel of death destructo thing would still be more powerful than a genetically enhanced super soldier.

But again, that can't really be verified. It really all comes down to Trance, I think. That gives Zidane an edge Cloud doesn't have.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Alright, let's say Cloud has Blizzard and Thunder. He doesn't seem to be much of a mage. He's more of a close range fighter. I don't think those will help him all that much.

I can't say for certain that his abilities are more advanced because, again, we have no idea the extent either one of them are. But it seems to me that a lesser powered genome angel of death destructo thing would still be more powerful than a genetically enhanced super soldier.

But again, that can't really be verified. It really all comes down to Trance, I think. That gives Zidane an edge Cloud doesn't have.

Zidane doesn't seem to be much of a mage either, still that doesn't mean he can't use Magic and that his attacks can't be powerful. Zidane is also a close range fighter.

Actually... We don't have anything that shows Zidane's true abilities. Not even a strong hint. We have just that little Gameplay cutscene showing to us, that he can have access to Trance, we have nothing to rely on... You said that the: 'Angel of Death' was just a title and that doesn't make him stronger if I recall. Being a Genome doesn't mean he's super-powerful as there are a lot of them and they aren't strong.

I dunno.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Zidane doesn't seem to be much of a mage either, still that doesn't mean he can't use Magic and that his attacks can't be powerful. Zidane is also a close range fighter.

Okay, so? This is irrelevant. We were talking about Cloud, not Zidane. I never said Cloud couldn't use magic, I simply said it wouldn't help him much. The fact that Zidane is also a close range fighter has no relation to the previous point at all.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Actually... We don't have anything that shows Zidane's true abilities. Not even a strong hint. We have just that little Gameplay cutscene showing to us, that he can have access to Trance, we have nothing to rely on... You said that the: 'Angel of Death' was just a title and that doesn't make him stronger if I recall. Being a Genome doesn't mean he's super-powerful as there are a lot of them and they aren't strong.

I dunno.

I never said the Angel of Death title gave him anything, nor did I say he was more powerful just because he was a genome. But Genome's are artificially created creatures. They aren't pre-existing things that you have to upgrade, like Cloud is. So if you have one made specifically to be a powerful killing machine, I would think it would be more powerful than taking a previous life from and augmenting it's abilities.

But this doesn't matter anyway. I already admitted I can't actually back any of this up, and there is no real demonstration of either of the characters level of power.

So again, all we know for certain is both of them are super human. But on top of that, Zidane has Trance.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Okay, so? This is irrelevant. We were talking about Cloud, not Zidane. I never said Cloud couldn't use magic, I simply said it wouldn't help him much. The fact that Zidane is also a close range fighter has no relation to the previous point at all.

Why irrelevant? I know you were talking about Cloud. Although, I'm talking about both. I never said that you said Cloud couldn't use Magic. You said that Cloud doesn't seem to be much of a mage, I said that does not mean his attacks can't be powerful and that he can't use Magic. You said he was a close range fighter, I said Zidane is also a close range fighter. Just pointing things out.

Originally posted by TacDavey
I never said the Angel of Death title gave him anything, nor did I say he was more powerful just because he was a genome.

Why did you said: 'But it seems to me that a lesser powered genome angel of death destructo thing would still be more powerful' then? I mean... You are using both words here to point out that Zidane is more powerful, however you are saying that does not make him more powerful. This isn't a bit contradictory?

Originally posted by TacDavey
But Genome's are artificially created creatures. They aren't pre-existing things that you have to upgrade, like Cloud is. So if you have one made specifically to be a powerful killing machine, I would think it would be more powerful than taking a previous life from and augmenting it's abilities.

But this doesn't matter anyway. I already admitted I can't actually back any of this up, and there is no real demonstration of either of the characters level of power.

So again, all we know for certain is both of them are super human. But on top of that, Zidane has Trance.

Yeah, Zidane has Trance but he couldn't take Beatrix with it.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Why irrelevant? I know you were talking about Cloud. Although, I'm talking about both. I never said that you said Cloud couldn't use Magic. You said that Cloud doesn't seem to be much of a mage, I said that does not mean his attacks can't be powerful and that he can't use Magic. You said he was a close range fighter, I said Zidane is also a close range fighter. Just pointing things out.

My original point was that giving Cloud magic wouldn't up his chances very much, depending on the spell, obviously.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Why did you said: 'But it seems to me that a lesser powered genome angel of death destructo thing would still be more powerful' then? I mean... You are using both words here to point out that Zidane is more powerful, however you are saying that does not make him more powerful. This isn't a bit contradictory?

I'm using those words to describe him, I'm not saying that's where he gets his power.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Yeah, Zidane has Trance but he couldn't take Beatrix with it.

Well, then the obvious next question is:

Do you think Cloud can?

Originally posted by TacDavey
My original point was that giving Cloud magic wouldn't up his chances very much, depending on the spell, obviously.

Oh, I see. Well, like I said, if we give Cloud the opportunity to use some Magical Spells, then those would be Blizzard and Thunder.
Well, giving Cloud some Magic would obviously increase his chance a bit. Zidane has no abilities in his regular form and he can't go into Trance whenever he wants.

Originally posted by TacDavey
I'm using those words to describe him, I'm not saying that's where he gets his power.

Ok, cool.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Well, then the obvious next question is:

Do you think Cloud can?

You mean if he can defeat Beatrix by himself? Why not? He didn't fought the strongest warrior in his own world? Even if we know that Cloud isn't stronger than Sephiroth, he still could go against him. Besides Sephiroth is a super-human and Beatrix is a very skilled and strong human. She defeated Zidane, Freya and Vivi by herself without any kind nor signs of efforts whatsoever. I also think Cloud is a more experienced fighter than Zidane which can give him the edge.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Oh, I see. Well, like I said, if we give Cloud the opportunity to use some Magical Spells, then those would be Blizzard and Thunder.
Well, giving Cloud some Magic would obviously increase his chance a bit. Zidane has no abilities in his regular form and he can't go into Trance whenever he wants.

But we still have to count it as one of his abilities. It's not very clear exactly what a "surge of emotion" entails, but doesn't seem to be a very rare thing.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
You mean if he can defeat Beatrix by himself? Why not? He didn't fought the strongest warrior in his own world? Even if we know that Cloud isn't stronger than Sephiroth, he still could go against him. Besides Sephiroth is a super-human and Beatrix is a very skilled and strong human. She defeated Zidane, Freya and Vivi by herself without any kind nor signs of efforts whatsoever. I also think Cloud is a more experienced fighter than Zidane which can give him the edge.

Well, that's the thing. Beatrix defeated a super human, along with his team, by herself. What makes you think Cloud can do it ALONE? Beatrix is somewhat of an oddity. She's apparently the baddest mutha licka in all of Gaia. She even used her power to break that supposedly unbreakable spell that the twins, who specialize in magic, cast on Garnet.

Let's not underestimate Beatrix, here. She may technically be human, but she's pretty flippin powerful. (Though she is substantially weaker when she joins up with you...)

Well, lets at least list feats that make Cloud super human here: He is able to wield the buster sword, take a stab straight through the chest by Sephiroth and still send him flying off a reactor bridge, and survived falling off a bridge at mountain height when he was 9 years old and ending up with only a few scrapped knees whereas Tifa was out for weeks. This is all before he was genetically upgraded to be super strong. Now we need some Zidane feats and because I've yet to beat 9 all the way, I can't list them.

Originally posted by TacDavey
But we still have to count it as one of his abilities. It's not very clear exactly what a "surge of emotion" entails, but doesn't seem to be a very rare thing.

Of course. But in this battle, Zidane would begin with his regular form, not already in Trance, right? Well, surely they meant something about his feelings, they literally explains that Trance is somewhat related to their feelings. For example, Steiner goes into Trance when he's fighting along with Beatrix, in those battles (I don't really remember what they said) both of them talks to each other, and in some of those lines, Steiner goes automatically into Trance (correct me if I'm wrong). Also Zidane when Garnet is captured by that monster and is totally in danger. I don't know how Zidane's Trance would surge in a fight against Cloud...

Originally posted by TacDavey
Well, that's the thing. Beatrix defeated a super human, along with his team, by herself. What makes you think Cloud can do it ALONE? Beatrix is somewhat of an oddity. She's apparently the baddest mutha licka in all of Gaia. She even used her power to break that supposedly unbreakable spell that the twins, who specialize in magic, cast on Garnet.

Let's not underestimate Beatrix, here. She may technically be human, but she's pretty flippin powerful. (Though she is substantially weaker when she joins up with you...).

Beatrix is far more experienced that Zidane and all of his team, that's why she defeated them. Still, I wouldn't call Zidane so 'super-human' at that point, he surely never showed being a super-human in any of the battles you fight against Beatrix. Beatrix defeated all of his team. He never showed to be above Beatrix. Cloud is different, I do believe Cloud is more experienced than Zidane. You admit Zidane isn't stronger than Beatrix then, even with Trance included. Because in all of those battles Zidane has Trance already and he could have used it. And if he hasn't used it in those, then what makes us think he will use it against Cloud? You said Beatrix defeated a super-human, aren't you overrating Zidane here? Maybe he isn't so strong as you want him to be.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Now we need some Zidane feats and because I've yet to beat 9 all the way, I can't list them.

I have beat the game several times and I can't list them either. I don't remember much about his feats besides he is VERY agile.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Of course. But in this battle, Zidane would begin with his regular form, not already in Trance, right? Well, surely they meant something about his feelings, they literally explains that Trance is somewhat related to their feelings. For example, Steiner goes into Trance when he's fighting along with Beatrix, in those battles (I don't really remember what they said) both of them talks to each other, and in some of those lines, Steiner goes automatically into Trance (correct me if I'm wrong). Also Zidane when Garnet is captured by that monster and is totally in danger. I don't know how Zidane's Trance would surge in a fight against Cloud...

Anger maybe? I dunno.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Beatrix is far more experienced that Zidane and all of his team, that's why she defeated them. Still, I wouldn't call Zidane so 'super-human' at that point, he surely never showed being a super-human in any of the battles you fight against Beatrix. Beatrix defeated all of his team. He never showed to be above Beatrix. Cloud is different, I do believe Cloud is more experienced than Zidane. You admit Zidane isn't stronger than Beatrix then, even with Trance included. Because in all of those battles Zidane has Trance already and he could have used it. And if he hasn't used it in those, then what makes us think he will use it against Cloud? You said Beatrix defeated a super-human, aren't you overrating Zidane here? Maybe he isn't so strong as you want him to be.

Why? Because he lost to Beatrix? Like I said, Beatrix isn't just some human. She seems to have quite the talent for magical abilities. She defeated, I think it was 100 soldiers by herself.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
I have beat the game several times and I can't list them either. I don't remember much about his feats besides he is VERY agile.

There really isn't much Zidane does on his own. Most of the time he has his party with him.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Anger maybe? I dunno.

Why? Because he lost to Beatrix? Like I said, Beatrix isn't just some human. She seems to have quite the talent for magical abilities. She defeated, I think it was 100 soldiers by herself.

There really isn't much Zidane does on his own. Most of the time he has his party with him.

Very likely. Look at Vivi when he went into Trance. Hey, I don't remember if all the characters have shown their Trance, I guess that the only ones are Zidane, Vivi and Steiner... I don't really remember much, Final Fantasy IX is my favorite game and I have played it a lot of times (even the Spanish version) but I don't remember much about the plot.

Yes, because he lost to Beatrix and not just once. Zidane lost to her three times with his team and Trance included. Beatrix is more experienced in battle, that's the thing. She's a human that uses Magic, like almost all the characters from Final Fantasy, if I recall. Being experienced gives her the edge here. I don't really think Zidane is that strong, not much as you making it sound. He almost gets killed in the third disc, he was saved by Garnet and one of her Magics. The only ones Zidane has defeated by himself are Baku and Amarant... Not a big deal. Zidane is most like an humanoid rather than a super-human, in my opinion.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Very likely. Look at Vivi when he went into Trance. Hey, I don't remember if all the characters have shown their Trance, I guess that the only ones are Zidane, Vivi and Steiner... I don't really remember much, Final Fantasy IX is my favorite game and I have played it a lot of times (even the Spanish version) but I don't remember much about the plot.

Yes, because he lost to Beatrix and not just once. Zidane lost to her three times with his team and Trance included. Beatrix is more experienced in battle, that's the thing. She's a human that uses Magic, like almost all the characters from Final Fantasy, if I recall. Being experienced gives her the edge here. I don't really think Zidane is that strong, not much as you making it sound. He almost gets killed in the third disc, he was saved by Garnet and one of her Magics. The only ones Zidane has defeated by himself are Baku and Amarant... Not a big deal. Zidane is most like an humanoid rather than a super-human, in my opinion.

That's because he doesn't really get a chance to show his abilities by himself. And wasn't Amarant known through out the land or something like that? That's a little bit of a big deal.

But I'll return to the question. Do you think Cloud can beat Beatrix and why?

Originally posted by TacDavey
That's because he doesn't really get a chance to show his abilities by himself. And wasn't Amarant known through out the land or something like that? That's a little bit of a big deal.

But I'll return to the question. Do you think Cloud can beat Beatrix and why?

Huh? He doesn't get the chance to show his abilities? What do you mean by that? And the whole game? Amarant is known through the land? What land? I recall he was just a bodyguard or something.

Yes, I guess Cloud would have more probabilities to win against Beatrix than Zidane who hasn't shown to be above her abilities, at all. First off, Cloud is more experienced in battle than Zidane, Vivi and probably Freya. Cloud has faced Sephiroth who is also a super-human and the best warrior in his world, what would stop Cloud in defeating Beatrix who is just a strong human? Wasn't Cloud genetically enhanced? I think he would definitely last more in a battle. Zidane lost three times against her and with his team, that's not even a joke and I don't think due Beatrix is a Goddess or something, she's actually pretty strong, I think Zidane isn't that strong. At least, this is what I think. You probably think that Beatrix is stronger than Cloud because she defeated Zidane and his team, I don't know. Plus, I don't really think that Beatrix could handle Cloud's above-human speed, strength and endurance nor his giant sword. Well, that's all.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Huh? He doesn't get the chance to show his abilities? What do you mean by that? And the whole game? Amarant is known through the land? What land? I recall he was just a bodyguard or something.

Yes, I guess Cloud would have more probabilities to win against Beatrix than Zidane who hasn't shown to be above her abilities, at all. First off, Cloud is more experienced in battle than Zidane, Vivi and probably Freya. Cloud has faced Sephiroth who is also a super-human and the best warrior in his world, what would stop Cloud in defeating Beatrix who is just a strong human? Wasn't Cloud genetically enhanced? I think he would definitely last more in a battle. Zidane lost three times against her and with his team, that's not even a joke and I don't think due Beatrix is a Goddess or something, she's actually pretty strong, I think Zidane isn't that strong. At least, this is what I think. You probably think that Beatrix is stronger than Cloud because she defeated Zidane and his team, I don't know. Plus, I don't really think that Beatrix could handle Cloud's above-human speed, strength and endurance nor his giant sword. Well, that's all.

No, he was known as the flaming Amerant, or something. He was known. Oh well, not important.

You seem to be continually downplaying Beatrix's abilities. She's not just "a strong human" she's practically a legend in that world. Her abilities surpass even that of the twins, who specialize completely in magic. She takes out small armies by herself.

I don't see any reason to consider Zidane weak for loosing to her. I don't see any of the other characters as weak, and they all lost.

I think Beatrix would be a match for Cloud all by himself. I wouldn't say Cloud could beat the entire FFIX team at once, would you?

Originally posted by TacDavey
No, he was known as the flaming Amerant, or something. He was known. Oh well, not important.

You seem to be continually downplaying Beatrix's abilities. She's not just "a strong human" she's practically a legend in that world. Her abilities surpass even that of the twins, who specialize completely in magic. She takes out small armies by herself.

I don't see any reason to consider Zidane weak for loosing to her. I don't see any of the other characters as weak, and they all lost.

I think Beatrix would be a match for Cloud all by himself. I wouldn't say Cloud could beat the entire FFIX team at once, would you?

Oh, I think you're right, he had that nickname, but I don't remember him being 'known' anywhere.

No... I'm not downplaying her abilities. If she's not a strong human, then what is she? She's very experienced I said. Twins? You mean Ton and Son (Zorn and Thorn)? But those two are weak, obviously she's stronger than both of them. What makes you think that Cloud wouldn't take that small army as well?

I'm not saying they are weak. I don't consider Zidane so 'strong' and 'powerful' after losing 3 times against her and aided by the members of his own team. Remember... You are the one saying that Zidane is super-human and powerful. I don't think it anymore. He is not even a human, he's from another race. He's like an humanoid, like I said. Freya, Quina, Garnet and Eiko (including Vivi) are from different races, the only humans in his team are Amarant and Steiner.

No, Cloud wouldn't beat 8 characters by himself, of course not. Beatrix either.

Amarant is human!!? Jesus Chist did he ever get his ass beat with an ugly stick.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Oh, I think you're right, he had that nickname, but I don't remember him being 'known' anywhere.

No... I'm not downplaying her abilities. If she's not a strong human, then what is she? She's very experienced I said. Twins? You mean Ton and Son (Zorn and Thorn)? But those two are weak, obviously she's stronger than both of them. What makes you think that Cloud wouldn't take that small army as well?

I'm not saying they are weak. I don't consider Zidane so 'strong' and 'powerful' after losing 3 times against her and aided by the members of his own team. Remember... You are the one saying that Zidane is super-human and powerful. I don't think it anymore. He is not even a human, he's from another race. He's like an humanoid, like I said. Freya, Quina, Garnet and Eiko (including Vivi) are from different races, the only humans in his team are Amarant and Steiner.

No, Cloud wouldn't beat 8 characters by himself, of course not. Beatrix either.

That's the thing. You claim that Zidane is weak because he lost to Beatrix. That's what you said, right?

"I don't consider Zidane so 'strong' and 'powerful' after losing 3 times against her and aided by the members of his own team."

But that doesn't show that Zidane is weak. Sephiroth is stronger than Cloud but that doesn't mean Cloud is weak. Beatrix is practically on a whole other level.

Your argument might be justified if Beatrix was shown to not be anything special, and Zidane lost to her. But that is not the case, in fact, it's quite the opposite.

Her ability to break Zorn and Thorns spell isn't something to sneeze at. Those two were powerful mages. They were the ones in charge of the magical tasks for the queen. They even went to far as to claim their spell was "unbreakable" but Beatrix was able to break it by herself, and she doesn't even specialize solely in magic, as the twins do.

Also: "He's like an humanoid, like I said. Freya, Quina, Garnet and Eiko (including Vivi) are from different races, the only humans in his team are Amarant and Steiner."

That doesn't matter. It's just a term used to show that he is above human abilities. I'd consider Superman super human, even though he isn't a human, really.

Beatrix does have vastly superior magic to most characters. She's also a very strong sword fighter. But that's the problem. Her strength comes from her magic. Her Seiken skills all cost magic and you'll eventually run out. Other than that, she seems to be a normal but talented solider. I don't know if she could beat Cloud.

Originally posted by TacDavey
That's the thing. You claim that Zidane is weak because he lost to Beatrix. That's what you said, right?

No, you got it wrong. You are misunderstanding.

Originally posted by TacDavey
But that doesn't show that Zidane is weak.

Beatrix is practically on a whole other level.

Your argument might be justified if Beatrix was shown to not be anything special, and Zidane lost to her. But that is not the case, in fact, it's quite the opposite.

Of course not, but it doesn't show he's incredibly powerful like you said either. He's just: 'strong', but not experienced as Beatrix is/was, that's why he lost. You have to look at the character's background. Their experience is something VERY important, the plot says it, Beatrix is a more experienced warrior than Zidane. Zidane is a thief, Beatrix is the best warrior in the Kingdom. The plot itself makes a difference between them.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Her ability to break Zorn and Thorns spell isn't something to sneeze at. Those two were powerful mages. They were the ones in charge of the magical tasks for the queen. They even went to far as to claim their spell was "unbreakable" but Beatrix was able to break it by herself, and she doesn't even specialize solely in magic, as the twins do.

Yes, she did break the spell, but you are overrating Zorn and Thorn now. They weren't anything special, at all. They said 'irrevocable', but it doesn't matter what they says (Beatrix said: 'I don't know if I can'), it matters to know that Beatrix is stronger than both of them, that's why she's the general. It could have been impressive if Vivi could have broken the spell. She specializes in both, combat and Magic.

Originally posted by TacDavey
That doesn't matter. It's just a term used to show that he is above human abilities. I'd consider Superman super human, even though he isn't a human, really.

He's above human abilities? In what sense? Because Beatrix shows the opposite, you know. If that were absolutely true (Which I doubt it NOW) then, it wouldn't make sense, seeing Zidane laying in a floor almost losing consciousness after been defeated by a human. I mean... Hey, Zidane isn't like the Superman in the Final Fantasy IX Universe, that's a joke.

Didn't Kuja whip on Beatrix towards the end of the game? Zidane could take on Kuja at the very end of the game, so shouldn't he be stronger than Beatrix at the end?