Originally posted by GrieverSquall
No, you got it wrong. You are misunderstanding.Of course not, but it doesn't show he's incredibly powerful like you said either. He's just: 'strong', but not experienced as Beatrix is/was, that's why he lost. You have to look at the character's background. Their experience is something VERY important, the plot says it, Beatrix is a more experienced warrior than Zidane. Zidane is a thief, Beatrix is the best warrior in the Kingdom. The plot itself makes a difference between them.
I'm having trouble seeing your point. I know Beatrix is stronger than Zidane, how does this relate to Cloud?
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Yes, she did break the spell, but you are overrating Zorn and Thorn now. They weren't anything special, at all. They said 'irrevocable', but it doesn't matter what they says (Beatrix said: 'I don't know if I can'), it matters to know that Beatrix is stronger than both of them, that's why she's the general. It could have been impressive if Vivi could have broken the spell. She specializes in both, combat and Magic.
She doesn't specialize in magic alone, like they do. They're one thing is magic. And why don't you think they're powerful? They were the ones performing the magic on Garnet to harvest the summons, if I'm not mistaken. They placed that spell on Garnet too. They seem pretty powerful to me, at least enough to be right hand to the Queen, so that's saying something. And Beatrix tops them, and doesn't even solely specialize in magic, as they do. So that's REALLY saying something.
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
He's above human abilities? In what sense? Because Beatrix shows the opposite, you know. If that were absolutely true (Which I doubt it NOW) then, it wouldn't make sense, seeing Zidane laying in a floor almost losing consciousness after been defeated by a human. I mean... Hey, Zidane isn't like the Superman in the Final Fantasy IX Universe, that's a joke.
Just because someone is super human doesn't mean it's IMPOSSIBLE to be defeated by a human. Wasn't that one of your original top arguments in the Cloud vs Squall debate?
Originally posted by TacDavey
I'm having trouble seeing your point. I know Beatrix is stronger than Zidane, how does this relate to Cloud?
Cloud is not related. I'm talking about Zidane. I don't know... You said Zidane was super-powerful and all of that if I am not mistaken.
Originally posted by TacDavey
She doesn't specialize in magic alone, like they do. They're one thing is magic. And why don't you think they're powerful? They were the ones performing the magic on Garnet to harvest the summons, if I'm not mistaken. They placed that spell on Garnet too. They seem pretty powerful to me, at least enough to be right hand to the Queen, so that's saying something. And Beatrix tops them, and doesn't even solely specialize in magic, as they do. So that's REALLY saying something.
So? Vivi specializes solely in Magic still was defeated by Beatrix. Really? I could say Garnet is even more powerful than both of them because she has the ability Summon those powerful Eidolons. Yes, they are strong mages, that's all, at least to me, I respect your opinion though. The Queen is some fat lady, I wouldn't say they are powerful due of that they serves her. Beatrix is the most powerful warrior in the whole kingdom. At least THAT says something.
Originally posted by TacDavey
Just because someone is super human doesn't mean it's IMPOSSIBLE to be defeated by a human. Wasn't that one of your original top arguments in the Cloud vs Squall debate?
Huh? From where you brought that up? I never said that in my life.
What kind of argument is that? Squall is enhanced by GFs, he has got above-human capabilities by the way.
Aside from that, you say a human can defeat a super-human, then?
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Cloud is not related. I'm talking about Zidane. I don't know... You said Zidane was super-powerful and all of that if I am not mistaken.
Well, yeah. I'd say Zidane is powerful, but I never used Beatrix to show this.
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
So? Vivi specializes solely in Magic still was defeated by Beatrix. Really? I could say Garnet is even more powerful than both of them because she has the ability Summon those powerful Eidolons. Yes, they are strong mages, that's all, at least to me, I respect your opinion though. The Queen is some fat lady, I wouldn't say they are powerful due of that they serves her. Beatrix is the most powerful warrior in the whole kingdom. At least THAT says something.
That's not the point. Beatrix showed that her MAGIC abilities were above that of the twins, not just her overall strength. She is more powerful in magic than someone who specializes in that art, and it's not even her specialty.
For example. Take someone who is really good at Piano. They spend their time playing piano and learning it. That is their instrument, and they've worked very hard at that instrument. Then there is someone who only plays piano on the side. They play a few instruments, they don't specialize in just the piano. Never the less, they are better at the piano than the person who solely specializes in it.
Beatrix is like that person. She's better than magic users even though she only does magic on the side. She doesn't solely specialize in it.
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Huh? From where you brought that up? I never said that in my life.
What kind of argument is that? Squall is enhanced by GFs, he has got above-human capabilities by the way.Aside from that, you say a human can defeat a super-human, then?
Oh, don't try denying it. Back in the early days on Youtube... wait. Maybe that was 17xjf, or whatever. Ah, I may have mixed you two up.
Well, me and 17 had this talk before on Youtube. Yes, being super human does not grantee you a victory over a normal human. Especially in a world with magic, where you can technically be a human, yet still be very powerful. It helps, obviously, and by default they would be. But it's still possible for a human to beat a super human.
Originally posted by TacDavey
Well, yeah. I'd say Zidane is powerful, but I never used Beatrix to show this.
Okay... Uh, let me see. You are saying that Zidane is powerful just because Garland said: "Yes, my angel of death. But only until you came of age."? I don't know what you got from these words but... That does not mean Zidane is superior to the human race, at all. That's why I'm using Beatrix. Beatrix could have killed Zidane if she would have wanted. Plus, Garland created another Genome in order to replace Zidane, because he refused to accept his fate. I don't know if you will remember, but her name was Mikoto.
Originally posted by TacDavey
That's not the point. Beatrix showed that her MAGIC abilities were above that of the twins, not just her overall strength. She is more powerful in magic than someone who specializes in that art, and it's not even her specialty.For example. Take someone who is really good at Piano. They spend their time playing piano and learning it. That is their instrument, and they've worked very hard at that instrument. Then there is someone who only plays piano on the side. They play a few instruments, they don't specialize in just the piano. Never the less, they are better at the piano than the person who solely specializes in it.
Beatrix is like that person. She's better than magic users even though she only does magic on the side. She doesn't solely specialize in it.
Don't worry, I already got your point.
Yes, that's why I gave you Vivi as an example, Beatrix also defeated him without specializing solely in Magic. Remember that her attacks are directly related to White Magic, like a Paladin. But I also understand what you're trying to say here. You are saying that because Beatrix broke the spell, her Magic is more powerful than of the twins, am I right?
I have to agree that, her, breaking the spell, was a good show of her abilities, indeed, that was really impressive.
I also got your analogy. But, Beatrix could have trained and mastered both arts as equal, not because they specializes solely in Magic means their Magic power would be always superior, it means they had more spells at their disposal, also more magical skills. They were the ones the Queen ordered to extract the Eidolons from Garnet's body, Beatrix couldn't have done that because she doesn't have that power. That was something unique from them, something that only them could perform, (as when they tried doing it with Eiko). And Just because Beatrix fights with a sword does not mean she can't be good at Magic. Beatrix is the general of the kingdom, that is saying something.
Well... I think we agree after all... Right? 😕
Although I disgree that she's better that any Magic user just because she broke a spell.
Originally posted by TacDavey
Oh, don't try denying it. Back in the early days on Youtube... wait. Maybe that was 17xjf, or whatever. Ah, I may have mixed you two up.Well, me and 17 had this talk before on Youtube. Yes, being super human does not grantee you a victory over a normal human. Especially in a world with magic, where you can technically be a human, yet still be very powerful. It helps, obviously, and by default they would be. But it's still possible for a human to beat a super human..
Yes, you are indeed confused. I never said something like that.
Well, it's not a bad argument, but if a super-human fights a normal human, obviously that the super-human would have the advantage from the beginning, you know. Okay, let's say it's possible. But not likely. But we're off topic now, what do you mean by this?
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Okay... Uh, let me see. You are saying that Zidane is powerful just because Garland said: "Yes, my angel of death. But only until you came of age."? I don't know what you got from these words but... That does not mean Zidane is superior to the human race, at all. That's why I'm using Beatrix. Beatrix could have killed Zidane if she would have wanted. Plus, Garland created another Genome in order to replace Zidane, because he refused to accept his fate. I don't know if you will remember, but her name was Mikoto.
No, I got it from when Garland told Zidane he was created for the sole purpose of killing people. That, and the fact that he was originally designed to be more powerful, even, than Kuja, who is obviously a super human. Thus, Zidane is a super human, even if he isn't using all of his power.
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Don't worry, I already got your point.
Yes, that's why I gave you Vivi as an example, Beatrix also defeated him without specializing solely in Magic. Remember that her attacks are directly related to White Magic, like a Paladin. But I also understand what you're trying to say here. You are saying that because Beatrix broke the spell, her Magic is more powerful than of the twins, am I right?I have to agree that, her, breaking the spell, was a good show of her abilities, indeed, that was really impressive.
I also got your analogy. But, Beatrix could have trained and mastered both arts as equal, not because they specializes solely in Magic means their Magic power would be always superior, it means they had more spells at their disposal, also more magical skills. They were the ones the Queen ordered to extract the Eidolons from Garnet's body, Beatrix couldn't have done that because she doesn't have that power. That was something unique from them, something that only them could perform, (as when they tried doing it with Eiko). And Just because Beatrix fights with a sword does not mean she can't be good at Magic. Beatrix is the general of the kingdom, that is saying something.
Well... I think we agree after all... Right? 😕
Although I disgree that she's better that any Magic user just because she broke a spell.
No, not better than ANY mage. But as far as mages go, the twins aren't pushovers. It certainly gives her a pretty high rank in terms of magic users.
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Yes, you are indeed confused. I never said something like that.Well, it's not a bad argument, but if a super-human fights a normal human, obviously that the super-human would have the advantage from the beginning, you know. Okay, let's say it's possible. But not likely. But we're off topic now, what do you mean by this?
I mean that humans can beat super humans. So Beatrix defeating Zidane doesn't show him to not be super human. In order to be super human, you don't have to be able to literally defeat every human.
Originally posted by TacDavey
No, I got it from when Garland told Zidane he was created for the sole purpose of killing people. That, and the fact that he was originally designed to be more powerful, even, than Kuja, who is obviously a super human. Thus, Zidane is a super human, even if he isn't using all of his power.
Killing people? Being an assassin doesn't makes you super-human. Do you know at least what are Garland's plans? I mean, what was Garland's plan? No, Zidane has never surpassed Kuja, not even in his regular form. Kuja specializes in Magic as I can see, Zidane's abilities are different. Garland created Mikoto to replace Zidane. He refused to accept his fate and Garland proceeded in removing his soul leaving him in the Pandemonium. You can see it in the third disc. You are constantly talking about 'power' here, but power alone means nothing anyway.
Originally posted by TacDavey
No, not better than ANY mage. But as far as mages go, the twins aren't pushovers. It certainly gives her a pretty high rank in terms of magic users.
The twins aren't push-overs, but they aren't so powerful either. Black Mages are more powerful. She uses White Magic combined with sword attacks like I said. Vivi's Magic are more powerful.
Originally posted by TacDavey
I mean that humans can beat super humans. So Beatrix defeating Zidane doesn't show him to not be super human. In order to be super human, you don't have to be able to literally defeat every human.
But Zidane isn't super-human because he isn't a human. The right term should be Genome or humanoid. Dunno, I don't think Zidane is that powerful as you want to make it sound.
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Killing people? Being an assassin doesn't makes you super-human. Do you know at least what are Garland's plans? I mean, what was Garland's plan? No, Zidane has never surpassed Kuja, not even in his regular form. Kuja specializes in Magic as I can see, Zidane's abilities are different. Garland created Mikoto to replace Zidane. He refused to accept his fate and Garland proceeded in removing his soul leaving him in the Pandemonium. You can see it in the third disc. You are constantly talking about 'power' here, but power alone means nothing anyway.
What does any of that matter? Who cares that Zidane didn't accept his fate and Mikoto was going to replace him? That is all irrelevant information. The point was, Zidane is genetically created to cause destruction. That was his purpose.
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
The twins aren't push-overs, but they aren't so powerful either. Black Mages are more powerful. She uses White Magic combined with sword attacks like I said. Vivi's Magic are more powerful.
I don't know about that. Vivi didn't break the spell, Beatrix did.
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
But Zidane isn't super-human because he isn't a human. The right term should be Genome or humanoid. Dunno, I don't think Zidane is that powerful as you want to make it sound.
Now you're just arguing semantics. By super human, I mean above human potential. Forget the fact that he isn't technically a human. It's just a term.
Originally posted by TacDavey
What does any of that matter? Who cares that Zidane didn't accept his fate and Mikoto was going to replace him? That is all irrelevant information. The point was, Zidane is genetically created to cause destruction. That was his purpose.
How can you call all of that irrelevant when is part of the plot?
Garland decided that Zidane wouldn't be the Angel of Death and removed his soul.
Where it says he is 'genetically created' to cause destruction?
And exactly, that WAS his mission.
Originally posted by TacDavey
I don't know about that. Vivi didn't break the spell, Beatrix did.
What I meant, is that Vivi's spells are more powerful. Vivi was made to cause destruction. I didn't said Vivi is stronger than Beatrix because is obvious that she's stronger.
Originally posted by TacDavey
Now you're just arguing semantics. By super human, I mean above human potential. Forget the fact that he isn't technically a human. It's just a term.
No. Of course, I already know that. Yes, a term, not the right one though. But Garland didn't said the Genomes were absolutely superior to the human race. I don't remember that. It's like saying that Vivi is superior to the human race in Final Fantasy. Just no.
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
How can you call all of that irrelevant when is part of the plot?
Garland decided that Zidane wouldn't be the Angel of Death and removed his soul.
Where it says he is 'genetically created' to cause destruction?
And exactly, that WAS his mission.
It's plot, sure, but it does not have any relevance to what we are talking about right now. Zidane's original purpose was to replace Kuja. He was made stronger than Kuja, and since Kuja is obviously a super human, it logically follows that Zidane is as well. He was created to be a powerful killing machine, like Kuja.
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
No. Of course, I already know that. Yes, a term, not the right one though. But Garland didn't said the Genomes were absolutely superior to the human race. I don't remember that. It's like saying that Vivi is superior to the human race in Final Fantasy. Just no.
Not all genomes are superior, Zidane is special. Zidane isn't like the other Genomes, he was created as a tool of war, basically. He was suppose to be doing basically what Kuja was doing. Blowing stuff up and causing chaos.
Vivi is superior to most people in FF9 and so are the other Black Mages. Why else were the Black Mages feared? Why else did we specifically get to see a cutscene of Lindblum's gathered forces fleeing like bitches before an army of BMs?
Black Mages > FFIX humans on average. Someone like Beatrix obviously > them but just as a general rule, the Black Mages were definitely better than regular people in FF9.
Better than Burmecians too as we get to see burmeciains vaporized by Black mage fire spells in Cleyra.
And by the end of the game, Zidane is obviously stronger than Beatrix so who cares what she did way the heck bac on Disk 1 and 2?
Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
Vivi is superior to most people in FF9 and so are the other Black Mages. Why else were the Black Mages feared? Why else did we specifically get to see a cutscene of Lindblum's gathered forces fleeing like bitches before an army of BMs?Black Mages > FFIX humans on average. Someone like Beatrix obviously > them but just as a general rule, the Black Mages were definitely better than regular people in FF9.
Better than Burmecians too as we get to see burmeciains vaporized by Black mage fire spells in Cleyra.
And by the end of the game, Zidane is obviously stronger than Beatrix so who cares what she did way the heck bac on Disk 1 and 2?
Are you sure? I don't think Zidane ever got stronger than Beatrix, at least not that they showed.
Originally posted by TacDavey
It's plot, sure, but it does not have any relevance to what we are talking about right now. Zidane's original purpose was to replace Kuja. He was made stronger than Kuja, and since Kuja is obviously a super human, it logically follows that Zidane is as well. He was created to be a powerful killing machine, like Kuja.
Umm, actually, it does have relevance, that's why I'm mentioning it. Correct me if I'm wrong, (Maybe my memory is failing) but where it says Zidane was made 'stronger'? As far as I know, Kuja had mortality, meaning that his life was temporary, while Zidane is not. Like I said, being an assassin does not makes you super-human nor superior to human race. Plus, powerful killing machine? You are indeed overrating Zidane.
Originally posted by TacDavey
Not all genomes are superior, Zidane is special. Zidane isn't like the other Genomes, he was created as a tool of war, basically. He was suppose to be doing basically what Kuja was doing. Blowing stuff up and causing chaos.
Exactly, Zidane have a soul (Which made him superior to other Genomes). I mean, he HAD a soul, unlike the regular Genomes whose are just vessels and aren't powerful or anything. Kuja hasn't blown anything, all the destruction he caused was mostly with the help of the Black Mages, the Queen, the Invincible and Garnet's Eidolons. All of what you say WAS Garland's plans by the way. In Gaia there are humans and warriors that can stop those 'supposed superior-to-human-race' Genomes, Beatrix is the example. Freya, Amarant, Steiner all of them are warriors from Gaia, and they are strong. The Black Mages are tool of war.
Originally posted by TacDavey
Are you sure? I don't think Zidane ever got stronger than Beatrix, at least not that they showed.
Well it's a very roundabout thing but yes, I do think he got stronger than her or was at least her equal.
Kuja: You two just don't get it! I need an eidolon more powerful than Alexander! An eidolon with the power to bury Garland! His powers are so incredible; I cannot even come close.
Garland >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kuja.
The same Kuja who smiled off a direct attack from one of the strongest summons around in Bahamut.
A summon who we saw not only efforlessly one-shotting warships but who is most likely stronger than Odin and Odin can drop attacks that are about as strong as the original Atomic Bombs. (I've had people calc this by scaling the size of the attack he used on Cleyra)
Now the party, not just Zidane, was able to bring down both Garland and Kuja. However, we know that Garland is significantly stronger than Kuja and by all evidence, Kuja is more powerful than Beatrix. I just find it highly unlikely that Zidane would be weaker than someone who is weaker than someone else who is massively weaker than the person he helps defeat.
I hope I'm not going too far out on a limb here; I think it's resonable enough.
Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
Well it's a very roundabout thing but yes, I do think he got stronger than her or was at least her equal.Kuja: You two just don't get it! I need an eidolon more powerful than Alexander! An eidolon with the power to bury Garland! His powers are so incredible; I cannot even come close.
Garland >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kuja.
The same Kuja who smiled off a direct attack from one of the strongest summons around in Bahamut.
A summon who we saw not only efforlessly one-shotting warships but who is most likely stronger than Odin and Odin can drop attacks that are about as strong as the original Atomic Bombs. (I've had people calc this by scaling the size of the attack he used on Cleyra)Now the party, not just Zidane, was able to bring down both Garland and Kuja. However, we know that Garland is significantly stronger than Kuja and by all evidence, Kuja is more powerful than Beatrix. I just find it highly unlikely that Zidane would be weaker than someone who is weaker than someone else who is massively weaker than the person he helps defeat.
I hope I'm not going too far out on a limb here; I think it's resonable enough.
That isn't saying much. Zidane lost his soul, making him like the rest of the Genomes, an empty vessel.
Garland to Zidane (after refusing his fate):
"Regrettable... I thought your soul would be perfect for a new angel of death..."
"Foolishness..."
"The body becomes a vessel, which greets a new soul..."
He isn't even equal to Kuja in power. Never was. He said it by himself:
Zidane to Garland: "You mean you won't need Kuja's soul once I grow stronger than him?"
Zidane defeated Kuja and Garland with the help of seven people.
I don't think that is reason enough to think Zidane got stronger than Beatrix, who defeated him and his party several times.
And Kuja being stronger than Beatrix is something we can't tell. Only Trance Kuja is stronger.
That isn't saying much. Zidane lost his soul, making him like the rest of the Genomes, an empty vessel.
Prove he lost his soul. Garland tried to remove it but there's absolutely no evidence he succeeded.
He isn't even equal to Kuja in power. Never was. He said it by himself:
Garland: I built you to last only until the worthy Genome, Zidane, grew.
[...] There's a limit on your life... You'll be dead soon...
Zidane was near his maturity at which point he would surpass Kuja. Which is when Kuja would die soon.
And Kuja being stronger than Beatrix is something we can't tell. Only Trance Kuja is stronger.
Nope, he's stronger. By a good bit.
Beatrix is pathetic compared to the power the eidolons displayed.
Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
Prove he lost his soul. Garland tried to remove it but there's absolutely no evidence he succeeded.
What the hell are you talking about? Garland created Zidane, he didn't tried to remove his soul, he removed his soul and left him in the Pandemonium, I don't need to prove anything. Play Final Fantasy IX.
Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
Garland: I built you to last only until the worthy Genome, Zidane, grew.
[...] There's a limit on your life... You'll be dead soon...Zidane was near his maturity at which point he would surpass Kuja. Which is when Kuja would die soon..
Indeed. But that never happened.
Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
Nope, he's stronger. By a good bit.Beatrix is pathetic compared to the power the eidelons displayed.
I don't know, Kuja never fought Beatrix by himself.
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Umm, actually, it does have relevance, that's why I'm mentioning it. Correct me if I'm wrong, (Maybe my memory is failing) but where it says Zidane was made 'stronger'? As far as I know, Kuja had mortality, meaning that his life was temporary, while Zidane is not. Like I said, being an assassin does not makes you super-human nor superior to human race. Plus, powerful killing machine? You are indeed overrating Zidane.
Garland specifically says "Kuja couldn't stand seeing a Genome MORE POWERFUL THAN HIMSELF."
He did NOT say "Kuja couldn't stand seeing a genome WITH A SOUL AND LIFESPAN."
Besides, when Kuja ditched Zidane for being more powerful, he didn't even know he had a set lifespan at that point. He only found out in the events of FF9.
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Exactly, Zidane have a soul (Which made him superior to other Genomes). I mean, he HAD a soul, unlike the regular Genomes whose are just vessels and aren't powerful or anything. Kuja hasn't blown anything, all the destruction he caused was mostly with the help of the Black Mages, the Queen, the Invincible and Garnet's Eidolons. All of what you say WAS Garland's plans by the way. In Gaia there are humans and warriors that can stop those 'supposed superior-to-human-race' Genomes, Beatrix is the example. Freya, Amarant, Steiner all of them are warriors from Gaia, and they are strong. The Black Mages are tool of war.
Kuja shrugs off a blast from Bahamut like it was nothing. Zidane wasn't more powerful than the other genomes because he had a soul. He was more powerful because Garland made him to be more powerful. I'll say it again. When Graland was creating Zidane, he was creating a being the would be more powerful than Kuja, who is a powerful killing machine, and would replace him.
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
What the hell are you talking about? Garland created Zidane, he didn't tried to remove his soul, he removed his soul and left him in the Pandemonium, I don't need to prove anything. Play Final Fantasy IX.
That's debatable. Garland says he was going to remove Zidane's soul but this was never confirmed. He starts out like an "empty vessel" but that doesn't last long, and he ultimately snaps out of it. Had he no soul, like the other Genomes, he should be like them. An emotionless robot, basically. But he isn't. Leading me to believe he never lost it, or was about to but was able to regain it.
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
[B]What the hell are you talking about? Garland created Zidane, he didn't tried to remove his soul, he removed his soul and left him in the Pandemonium, I don't need to prove anything. Play Final Fantasy IX.
I did.
There's absolutely zero proof Garland succeeded in removing Zidane's soul.
So prove up or shut up.