I'll reply to the soul debate. About your argument on Zidane beating Cloud, I'll respond to it once we are done with this first, I don't want to transform this into a bunch of confusing posts.
Originally posted by TacDavey
😆 😆 😆 See? Thanks for proving my point. "He removed his soul and left Zidane in the Pandemonium. Simple as that." Nice defense bro.
That would be the conclusion, not defense.
Originally posted by TacDavey
Sure he did something to Zidane, but we don't KNOW that he removed his soul. My theory is he was in the process of removing it. That explains a lot of the scene. Notice that Zidane isn't mindlessly repeating "I am an empty vessel" when the scene starts. As it progresses, you see him continuously wither away. By the end of that little scene, he has started with the "empty vessel" rant, but Vivi and Eiko snap him out of it.
The dialogues and events suggests that Garland in fact removed Zidane's soul, or, that he did something to it. There isn't any kind of "process", why Garland would require a process? Nothing really suggest that. Zidane isn't repeating "I am an empty vessel"? And what that shows? I do agree his friends helped, but not to recover his soul nor to stop any "process", it's about his emotions, his memories, his true self. Even if I do accept what you say, we never know when the party learns about Pandemonium in its totality, nor the time they took to reach it and to even find Zidane inside of it. It is logical to assume they took much time since Mikoto was the only one who knew about that place, the time that passes between these two scenes is unknown. So there was enough time for Garland to have done whatever he wanted to Zidane. Garland drained Zidane's soul when their chat ended or Garland had enough time to do it after having him totally defenseless and at his mercy. You choose. There is enough time. There is also a third option.
Originally posted by TacDavey
No it doesn't. Why does it show that? I see no evidence that that suggests they can have emotions. All it says is that the Genomes would fit in better with the mages, because they are similar. Obviously they can't dump the Genomes in Alexandria, now can they?Also, I said made by Kuja and Garland.
The Genomes may learn new things and they may open up to them, Zidane said that if the Black Mages get along with the Genomes, they may live together with humans someday, I don't know what he meant but they will not remain as lifeless and they are no longer vessels from Terra, they can develop feelings and start a new life in Gaia, just as Zidane did, with his friends, not alone. There's absolutely nothing suggesting it's IMPOSSIBLE for them to develop feelings. Also, some of the Black Mages doesn't seem to be emotionless, you don't have to be "hyper" to have emotions, most of them are simply shy.
Okay, but I'm pointing out that Kuja is the one who created Black Mages.
Originally posted by TacDavey
Those are the simplified version of your points. And explaining them better does not make them more logical.I have provided a rational form of reasoning supporting my stance, which you blatantly ignored. Instead, you brought a ton a quotes that I refuted already.
Points requires elaboration and construction, not simplification. Never tried to make them more logical. I never ignored anything. You can't refute any quotes, I just brought them here from the game itself.
Originally posted by TacDavey
GrieverSquall, Garland never said specifically that he wanted to take Zidane's emotions, you have to use a little bit of common sense to figure that out. Garland says "He's too good to make into a REGULAR GENOME." Now, what are the REGULAR GENOMES like? Oh right, they are those emotionless robots. So, that means that when Garland wants to make him into one of THOSE, he wants to make him into a mindless robot, because that's what they are.
And Garland achieved that, actually. Zidane became an empty vessel, but his true emotions, feelings and memories were recovered thanks to his friends. Plus, if you didn't know, 'vessel' is just a term used to call the Genomes and 'Zombie' is a term used by Zidane, they aren't robots. Garland's plan was to make Zidane the new Angel of Death, but since Zidane refused to do so and even claimed that he would punish the people of Terra if he had the power, Garland had no other choice but removing his soul, THAT IS in the scene. I watched it. Another logical possibility is that Garland gave a new soul to Zidane replacing the old one. And this clearly suggest it:
Garland
"Well...now you should be fully aware of the meaning of your existence..."
"!?"
Zidane
"I wouldn't want that kind of power... if I only had a place to call home..."
"My brothers in Tantalus, Vivi, Freya, Amarant, Quina, Steiner, Eiko, and...Dagger..."
"My home is with them in Gaia!"
"If you say I have a motive, then it's to punish all of you who brought pain to my friends!"
"I'll destroy Terra! That's reason enough for my birth here as a Genome!"
Garland
"Regrettable... I thought your soul would be perfect for a new angel of death..."
Zidane
"I AM the new angel of death! Yours!!!"
Garland
"Don't you know what it means to meet your maker?"
Zidane
"Shut up! I've heard enough of your crap! I'm taking you out, right here, right now!"
Garland
"Foolishness..."
(The screen suddenly goes black and these words appears, words that Garland spelled)
"The body becomes a vessel, which greets a NEW soul..."
Zidane
"What's happening!?"
(Zidane passes out)
This also means Garland could have modified Zidane and gave him a new soul (read the quote), he was about to be an immortal Angel of Death but Garland changed his mind about this. That also means he removed his soul. You have three choices now and the three of them suggest Garland drained Zidane's soul or modified him. Remember that Garland gave a soul to Mikoto and she was supposed to replace Zidane. This option seems even more pausible than the first one since there are more evidence supporting it. But again, Zidane's friends played an important role, they helped him to recover from such state, just read what they say, all the things they shared together, the moments he helped and protected each of them, all of that have an important meaning in the plot. Zidane didn't remember the meaning of friendship, not even his own name. Garland achieved in making Zidane an empty vessel, but his friends in fact helped him to recover, that doesn't mean they brought back Zidane's soul. Zidane's true soul is, in essence, his friends.
Originally posted by TacDavey
Kuja wasn't an emotionless being!? What are you talking about? Kuja was FULL of emotions that whole game. Now you just making stuff up! Kuja had a soul, as did Zidane. That's why they had emotions. Kuja couldn't go into trance because emotions aren't the only thing needed to do that. Notice Beatrix couldn't go into trance, yet she had emotions, did she not? It's stated at the beginning of the game that only special people can go into trance. Not anyone who has emotions. Emotions are simply what triggers it.
You got it wrong. disgust What I meant is that Kuja hadn't strong emotions. Eiko's Moogle awakened Trance, then Kuja learned about it, that's why he decided to absorb all the souls that resides in the Invincible, to obtain such power and to surpass even Garland's. Notice that Kuja already had his own soul, but he needed others to triggers its emotions, emotions that seems to be within them since they are souls that "can't die", just like the soul from the Queen, that's why he entered in such powerful Trance.
Trance is surged by strong emotions, like anger, Kuja is "emotionless" in the way that he doesn't have any kind of compassion for people and is totally narcissist, he doesn't care about anything but him, and he would never protect others, he didn't wanted the world to exist without him, if he was going to die, then the world must end as well. Beatrix couldn't go into Trance, a Moogle says that there are some sort of 'chosen ones' who can, but a simple conclusion is that she isn't a main character, just like Blank and Marcus couldn't either. Steiner could, the player can use his earlier in the game despite that it seems he goes into Trance in the third disc while fighting alongside Beatrix.
The Black Mages are soulless, they are toys of war made with Magic, but look at Vivi, he has Trance. Same applies to Zidane who is still capable of entering into Trance without relying in a soul, because he still have his emotions, friends and the people whose cares about him. Zidane was the only Genome capable of entering Trance naturally, because he developed feelings, he isn't like the rest of the Genomes. Being raised in Gaia is also something that never was supposed to happen. That wasn't in Garland's plans either, remember that Kuja was the one who changed Zidane's fate and left him in Gaia. Garland never mentioned something about the power of Trance, I do believe is because that power is unknown for the people of Terra, that also explains why Kuja and Zidane didn't know about it either.
You're right about that this is never fully explained in the game, but I do have my own interpretations, just like you, and is valid.