Cloud Vs. Zidane

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Have you read what I've posted...? Where I said the soul it is not tied to anything? I don't remember saying that. Zidane WAS about to be immortal and powerful. Garland wanted to stop Zidane and he DID stop Zidane. I said that the quotes were suggesting that he removed his soul, inserted a new soul, or simply modified Zidane. His friends just helped him to recover from that state, that is all.

But look at Zidane after the process. He hasn't changed AT ALL. Yet you are saying that Garland succeed with whatever it was he was trying to do, so that must mean that whatever it was he was trying to do, didn't do anything to Zidane. That means that, since his power, memories, and emotions are all still intact even though Garland succeeded in removing his soul, that all those things are not linked to Zidane's soul.

So you think Garland removed Zidanes soul and put in another one? Where are you getting this radical, baseless argument? There is nothing to suggest that is the case at all.

It's far more likely that Zidane was going to loose his soul, but didn't because his friends snapped him out of it and ruined the process before his soul was lost.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Seriously... Have you read or not? Why are you repeating that Kuja wasn't emotionless? I have explained that I didn't mean that, read my post. You are repeating the same I have posted, there are chosen ones who can go into Trance... Yes, I know. What's your point?

"What I meant is that Kuja hadn't strong emotions."

Emotions aren't what give you the ability to go into Trance is my point. Kuja wasn't Tranceless because his emotions weren't strong enough, he was Tranceless because he wasn't a chosen one.

Originally posted by TacDavey
But look at Zidane after the process. He hasn't changed AT ALL. Yet you are saying that Garland succeed with whatever it was he was trying to do, so that must mean that whatever it was he was trying to do, didn't do anything to Zidane. That means that, since his power, memories, and emotions are all still intact even though Garland succeeded in removing his soul, that all those things are not linked to Zidane's soul.

He hasn't changed? Zidane was intact? Are you serious? Look at Zidane when Garland leaves him in the Pandemonium for God's sake. If Zidane was fine AFTERWARDS, it is just because his friends helped him, not because they stopped some kind of 'process', or because Garland has failed. He said it by himself and to Zidane, "Don't you know what it means to meet your maker?" Garland implies that he can do whatever he wants to Zidane. Stop ignoring evidence.

Originally posted by TacDavey
So you think Garland removed Zidanes soul and put in another one? Where are you getting this radical, baseless argument? There is nothing to suggest that is the case at all.

I have posted the quotes already, please don't ignore evidence. When Garland and Zidane's chat ends, Garland performs some kind of "spell", the screen goes suddenly black and these words: "The body becomes a vessel, which greets a NEW soul..." appears, then Zidane passes out. Notice in those words, THE BODY BECOMES A VESSEL WHICH GREETS A NEW SOUL, afterwards Zidane was at Garland's mercy, there's no escape, Tac.

Originally posted by TacDavey
It's far more likely that Zidane was going to loose his soul, but didn't because his friends snapped him out of it and ruined the process before his soul was lost.

No, it isn't far more likey. You are basing that off of what? Nothing.
Once again, where in those scenes suggests that Zidane is confronting some kind of process? In none of them. We see Zidane as an empty vessel, which agrees with the quote I have posted above, THE BODY BECOMES A VESSEL.

Originally posted by TacDavey
"What I meant is that Kuja hadn't strong emotions."

Emotions aren't what give you the ability to go into Trance is my point. Kuja wasn't Tranceless because his emotions weren't strong enough, he was Tranceless because he wasn't a chosen one.

I didn't meant Kuja hadn't any emotions. Instead of ignoring my post, I suggest you to read it.

Trance is induced by a surge of emotion, it does not say "Trance is helped with the power of emotions". It's not like Emotions = Trance, but it says by a surge of emotion, it can be referred as an strong emotion, far more strong than normal, that's why there are "chosen ones". Still is contradictory, Vivi is a soulless toy, if a soulless toy can develop feelings, then go into Trance naturally, I don't see why a soulless Genome can't either. Taking into consideration that there are one Genome who developed feelings BEFORE losing his soul. Thing is, the game makes clear that every being can develop feelings, even those whose are soulless.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
He hasn't changed? Zidane was intact? Are you serious? Look at Zidane when Garland leaves him in the Pandemonium for God's sake. If Zidane was fine AFTERWARDS, it is just because his friends helped him, not because they stopped some kind of 'process', or because Garland has failed. He said it by himself and to Zidane, "Don't you know what it means to meet your maker?" Garland implies that he can do whatever he wants to Zidane. Stop ignoring evidence.

I have ignored no evidence. You are simply drawing conclusions from unacceptable bits of evidence.

Look at your example here. You bring one quote, which says "Don't you know what it means to meet your maker" and from that one, single quote, you draw the conclusion that Garland can do whatever he wants to Zidane and there is nothing anyone can do to stop it.

But that quote does NOT say that at all, or even mildly suggest it! All it says is that Garland made Zidane, AND THAT IS IT. You are drawing baseless conclusions from that one quote that you just can't draw, GreiverSquall.

And on top of all that, you have still blatantly ignored my question! I'll ask it again.

You claim the the soul is not responsible for emotions, memories, power, or Trance. So tell me. WHY did Garland remove it when it did NOTHING to Zidane? Garland wanted to stop Zidane because he had turned against him, and to do this he decided to remove Zidane's soul. But why? Since everything that made Zidane a threat isn't linked to the soul at all! Why remove it?

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
No, it isn't far more likey. You are basing that off of what? Nothing.
Once again, where in those scenes suggests that Zidane is confronting some kind of process? In none of them. We see Zidane as an empty vessel, which agrees with the quote I have posted above, THE BODY BECOMES A VESSEL.

No, I am basing it off of all the evidence and reasoning I have been providing this entire debate.

That quote shows us that Garland was planning to take Zidane's soul.

We know Garland tried to take Zidane's soul. I'm arguing that he failed. Garland tried to take Zidanes soul, but his team showed up before he turn him into one of the regular Gnomes. They saved him, so Garland failed.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
I didn't meant Kuja hadn't any emotions. Instead of ignoring my post, I suggest you to read it.

Trance is induced by a surge of emotion, it does not say "Trance is helped with the power of emotions". It's not like Emotions = Trance, but it says by a surge of emotion, it can be referred as an strong emotion, far more strong than normal, that's why there are "chosen ones". Still is contradictory, Vivi is a soulless toy, if a soulless toy can develop feelings, then go into Trance naturally, I don't see why a soulless Genome can't either. Taking into consideration that there are one Genome who developed feelings BEFORE losing his soul. Thing is, the game makes clear that every being can develop feelings, even those whose are soulless.

What? Kuja had a soul, what Genome are you talking about? Don't forget that I don't accept that Zidane ever lost his soul. Nor did I ever make the argument that Trance was linked to the soul.

Originally posted by TacDavey
I have ignored no evidence. You are simply drawing conclusions from unacceptable bits of evidence.

Look at your example here. You bring one quote, which says "Don't you know what it means to meet your maker" and from that one, single quote, you draw the conclusion that Garland can do whatever he wants to Zidane and there is nothing anyone can do to stop it.

But that quote does NOT say that at all, or even mildly suggest it! All it says is that Garland made Zidane, AND THAT IS IT. You are drawing baseless conclusions from that one quote that you just can't draw, GreiverSquall.

That's not quite right, I'm drawing conclusions from a canon source, which are the quotes, unlike you.

Of course he can do whatever he wants to Zidane. What the hell are you talking about? He has created him, THAT is what he implies, that since he has created him has the enough power to stop him, and he does. Why else Zidane passes out? For no reason? Stop being ridiculous.

IT DOES! I'm having trouble understanding your denial here.

Originally posted by TacDavey
And on top of all that, you have still blatantly ignored my question! I'll ask it again.

You claim the the soul is not responsible for emotions, memories, power, or Trance. So tell me. WHY did Garland remove it when it did NOTHING to Zidane? Garland wanted to stop Zidane because he had turned against him, and to do this he decided to remove Zidane's soul. But why? Since everything that made Zidane a threat isn't linked to the soul at all! Why remove it?

I have ignored no question.

I cannot respond to that question because I have no made such claim. Point me out where, I do not remember saying that, AT ALL. The soul is linked to emotions, memories and Trance, why the hell Kuja needed to absorb hundred of souls to be able to enter Trance? You have no point.

Originally posted by TacDavey
No, I am basing it off of all the evidence and reasoning I have been providing this entire debate.

That quote shows us that Garland was planning to take Zidane's soul.

We know Garland tried to take Zidane's soul. I'm arguing that he failed. Garland tried to take Zidanes soul, but his team showed up before he turn him into one of the regular Gnomes. They saved him, so Garland failed.

You're clearly not. You base that off of nothing more that your own interpretation from a little scene where we see Zidane's friends talking to him, and from where you jump to "Yeah they stopped a process".

That quote shows to us that Garland removed Zidane's soul, I gave even other two logical options, which implies basically the same and even implies that Garland modified Zidane.

And I'm arguing that he did not failed. That he turned Zidane into an empty vessel with no memories and his friends helped him to recover little by little. We have a difficult disagreement here. I have no intentions in changing my mind, for you, what you suggest sounds more rational even basing it off of nothing, and for me what I said sounds more rational, that's the way it is, Tac.

Originally posted by TacDavey
What? Kuja had a soul, what Genome are you talking about? Don't forget that I don't accept that Zidane ever lost his soul. Nor did I ever make the argument that Trance was linked to the soul.

I'm talking about Zidane, and it does not really matters if you don't accept my argument, it's not like I am accepting yours.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
That's not quite right, I'm drawing conclusions from a canon source, which are the quotes, unlike you.

Of course he can do whatever he wants to Zidane. What the hell are you talking about? He has created him, THAT is what he implies, that since he has created him has the enough power to stop him, and he does. Why else Zidane passes out? For no reason? Stop being ridiculous.

IT DOES! I'm having trouble understanding your denial here.

It DOES NOT. You are simply assuming that since Garland made him, that means he can do whatever he wants to Zidane. Like he is omnipotent when it comes to Zidane, but you're wrong.

Garland can remove Zidanes soul, sure. But how does he do it? How long does it take? These are things that you have no answer for, yet you are SO SURE it can be done before the events take place in Pandemonium, as well as being completely irreversible. How? How do you know how long it takes for a soul to be removed? How do you know the process can't be stopped? You don't. So it is perfectly possible that Zidane never fully lost his soul in Pandemonium because he had yet to loose it, right? It IS possible, since you don't know how long it takes to remove a soul, or what is involved in doing so.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
I have ignored no question.

I cannot respond to that question because I have no made such claim. Point me out where, I do not remember saying that, AT ALL. The soul is linked to emotions, memories and Trance, why the hell Kuja needed to absorb hundred of souls to be able to enter Trance? You have no point.

Are you now saying that the soul IS linked with memories, power, and emotions? So tell me, if Zidane lost his soul, why did he not loose all of those things since, according to you, they are linked?

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
You're clearly not. You base that off of nothing more that your own interpretation from a little scene where we see Zidane's friends talking to him, and from where you jump to "Yeah they stopped a process".

That quote shows to us that Garland removed Zidane's soul, I gave even other two logical options, which implies basically the same and even implies that Garland modified Zidane.

And I'm arguing that he did not failed. That he turned Zidane into an empty vessel with no memories and his friends helped him to recover little by little. We have a difficult disagreement here. I have no intentions in changing my mind, for you, what you suggest sounds more rational even basing it off of nothing, and for me what I said sounds more rational, that's the way it is, Tac.

The quote never says he removed Zidanes soul, only that he was GOING to. That was his plan, NOT that he ever succeeded.

"I'm going to remove your soul."

is NOT the same as:

"I just removed your soul."

If Garlands plan was to remove his memories and emotions by removing his soul, that means that those things are linked to his soul, which means that once the soul is gone, those are gone. But since Zidane still has those things, that means that he either got his soul back, or never lost it in the first place.

Originally posted by TacDavey
It DOES NOT. You are simply assuming that since Garland made him, that means he can do whatever he wants to Zidane. Like he is omnipotent when it comes to Zidane, but you're wrong.

IT DOES. You are just being ridiculous here. 🤨
I never said "omnipotent", but Zidane was at Garland's total mercy! It is so hard to understand? Garland just performed some sort of "spell" with words and Zidane passed out automatically like it was NOTHING! Don't you know what it means to meet your maker? He, ironically implies that has control over Zidane since he has designed him. Zidane tried to "fight" and Garland stopped him like it was nothing. Stop ignoring evidence. You have no point here and YOU are wrong.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Garland can remove Zidanes soul, sure. But how does he do it? How long does it take? These are things that you have no answer for, yet you are SO SURE it can be done before the events take place in Pandemonium, as well as being completely irreversible. How? How do you know how long it takes for a soul to be removed? How do you know the process can't be stopped? You don't. So it is perfectly possible that Zidane never fully lost his soul in Pandemonium because he had yet to loose it, right? It IS possible, since you don't know how long it takes to remove a soul, or what is involved in doing so.

I have already adressed this point some pages back. I'm warning you, we're going in circles. I repeat, the time that passes between the moment when Garland spells that "incantation" to Zidane, and when the party FINALLY finds Zidane already laying down in that chair is totally unknown, but it's safe to assume Zidane has been there for a very long time, Mikoto was the only one who knew about Pandemonium. No one else. So even if I do accept what you say about a supposedly "process" (I do not), between that period of time it is pretty much possible to have been complete.

Also, there isn't any process, you keep claiming that, but honestly, there's nothing suggesting it. However, it is clear that Garland already did what he said he was going to do to Zidane. Plus, it is not really necessary or important to show a "removing soul process" (if there is any) to the players, it is never shown how Garland creates the Genomes either, why? Because is irrelevant. Zidane was at Garland's hands, COMPLETELY, he could have easily kept Zidane with him if there is a "process", why Garland would leave Zidane all alone there in that chair if there is still a "process" waiting to be complete? Is Garland some old idiot? That makes NO sense.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Are you now saying that the soul IS linked with memories, power, and emotions? So tell me, if Zidane lost his soul, why did he not loose all of those things since, according to you, they are linked.

Yes, because I NEVER SAID they weren't. Less knowing Kuja had to absorb hundred of souls to be able to go into Trance, duh. Because Zidane had his friends with him, they were there for him, and they helped him... . That's the true meaning of everything. But he WAS lost before his friends showed up, hell, he does not even remember his own name.

And it isn't "according to me", you have to use a bit of common sense and a logical reasoning. Is pretty OBVIOUS that the souls are related and linked somehow with emotions AND Trance.

Originally posted by TacDavey
The quote never says he removed Zidanes soul, only that he was GOING to. That was his plan, NOT that he ever succeeded.

"I'm going to remove your soul."

is NOT the same as:

"I just removed your soul."

If Garlands plan was to remove his memories and emotions by removing his soul, that means that those things are linked to his soul, which means that once the soul is gone, those are gone. But since Zidane still has those things, that means that he either got his soul back, or never lost it in the first place.

Are you saying is IMPOSSIBLE to attain, to have and develop emotions without a soul? That's literally what's you're saying, if that's so, then ask Vivi why he does have emotions without having any soul, as he's just some toy made with Magic, so just as he can, I don't see why Zidane wouldn't have overcome his state with the help of his friends and recover all of his emotions and feelings without relying on his Terra soul, which by the way is the real meaning of that scene and everything. His soul, has been, in fact, drained by Garland. Garland performs that spell and Zidane falls under it, "THE BODY BECOMES A VESSEL, WHICH GREETS A NEW SOUL", thus Zidane has been modified somehow, simple as that. Friendship was the real key there.

The spell that made Zidane fall over wasn't him removing his soul, GreiverSquall, it just knocked him out so Garland could remove it. And again, you don't know what is involved in taking out a soul. You think he can just reach his hand into his chest and pop it out? How do you know it isn't a process?

The truth is we don't know. Just like I can't say for certain it isn't as simple as pulling it out, neither can you say for certain it isn't a slow process.

So where does that leave us?

1.) We don't know if Zidane lost his soul by the time we see him in Pandemonium.

Next, you said that memories, power, and emotions are all linked to a soul, BUT Zidane never lost any of them when he lost his soul. See the contradiction here? If his soul is responsible for all those things, hearing some kind words from some friends isn't going to bring them back after it has been taken. That means, if he can have memories, power, and emotions perfectly well without a soul, then that means that a soul ISN'T necessary for those things, and thus loosing one shouldn't take them away. But if that is the case, why did Garland decide to take his soul? He decided to do so to remove his Emotions, memories, and power. So we can logically say that they ARE linked to a soul.

2.) Memories, power, and emotions are linked with a soul.

So with these two points in mind, we can determine the logical conclusion. Keeping in mind that point 1 could go either way, we can use point 2 to decide which way it went. Since all those things are linked to a soul, and Zidane never lost any of those things, it must mean he never lost his soul.

The only other alternative is this:

Zidane lost his soul, lost all his emotions and memories and somehow got them back for no reason at all. Somehow, simply seeing his friends could restore them, which means they weren't tied to a soul, because a soul isn't necessary to have them. Thus, Garlands plan was, in fact, pointless.

But MY explanation is far more logical.

Zidane was taken to Pandemonium while his soul was being removed. The scene even supports the process theory as we can see that he isn't a "lifeless vessel" at the start of the scene, like he SHOULD be if he has already lost his soul. Instead, we see him slowly degrading over time. It isn't until close to the end of that scene that he starts with the "lifeless vessel" talk, at which point, his friends come and snap him out of it. Then, over the course of the next few scenes, his friends help stop him from loosing/regain his soul.

My explanation fully covers and explains all aspects of the scene. Yours contains a bunch more questions that need answering, like why the process of removing a soul would ever take emotions and memories since the two are obviously not codependent.

Originally posted by TacDavey
The spell that made Zidane fall over wasn't him removing his soul, GreiverSquall, it just knocked him out so Garland could remove it. And again, you don't know what is involved in taking out a soul. You think he can just reach his hand into his chest and pop it out? How do you know it isn't a process?

The truth is we don't know. Just like I can't say for certain it isn't as simple as pulling it out, neither can you say for certain it isn't a slow process.

So where does that leave us?

The spell that made Zidane pass out, was him taking his soul away.
See what I did there? Do not point your finger at me when you're the one making incoherent assumptions.

Also, you ignore completely the meaning of the words, for some reason those made Zidane scream and to pass out. "What's happening?!?!" sounds like something is happening to Zidane's body or organism that is beyond his own comprehension, if you ask me.

Originally posted by TacDavey
1.) We don't know if Zidane lost his soul by the time we see him in Pandemonium.

Next, you said that memories, power, and emotions are all linked to a soul, BUT Zidane never lost any of them when he lost his soul. See the contradiction here? If his soul is responsible for all those things, hearing some kind words from some friends isn't going to bring them back after it has been taken. That means, if he can have memories, power, and emotions perfectly well without a soul, then that means that a soul ISN'T necessary for those things, and thus loosing one shouldn't take them away. But if that is the case, why did Garland decide to take his soul? He decided to do so to remove his Emotions, memories, and power. So we can logically say that they ARE linked to a soul.

That's your assumption, not mine.

I did not say "power". I specified "emotions" over all. We know this, because Kuja needed hundred of souls to enter Trance. If he needed souls, it means the souls are somehow related to emotions, and emotions to Trance. Zidane hasn't lost his emotions and part of his memories? Are you sure? Watch the video again or play the game. Some kind words from his friends isn't going to bring them back? Lol, and what makes you think some kind words would stop a "removing soul process"? It's a plot point for God's sake, you are having difficulties in understanding that concept, Tac. Like saying, because I have some friends does not mean I will travel through time and prevent myself being absorbed by a Time Compression. It's a plot point. Welcome to the Fantasy.

Originally posted by TacDavey
2.) Memories, power, and emotions are linked with a soul.

So with these two points in mind, we can determine the logical conclusion. Keeping in mind that point 1 could go either way, we can use point 2 to decide which way it went. Since all those things are linked to a soul, and Zidane never lost any of those things, it must mean he never lost his soul.

Read above.

Zidane lost his soul or was modified, I gave three logical options.
You are also forgetting that Mikoto was going to replace Zidane and Garland specifically gave her a soul for that purpose. Play the game.
I know all of this is contradictory, I'm having difficulties myself, don't worry. I'm basing all of this from canon.

Originally posted by TacDavey
The only other alternative is this:

Zidane lost his soul, lost all his emotions and memories and somehow got them back for no reason at all. Somehow, simply seeing his friends could restore them, which means they weren't tied to a soul, because a soul isn't necessary to have them. Thus, Garlands plan was, in fact, pointless.

But MY explanation is far more logical.

Yeah, good, I gave also some alternatives, those you ignored.

One of those alternatives, is that Garland replaced Zidane's soul, but my point still stands as he STILL REMOVED HIS SOUL. Garland did not failed at all, you seem to think he is some old idiot, which he is not.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Zidane was taken to Pandemonium while his soul was being removed. The scene even supports the process theory as we can see that he isn't a "lifeless vessel" at the start of the scene, like he SHOULD be if he has already lost his soul. Instead, we see him slowly degrading over time. It isn't until close to the end of that scene that he starts with the "lifeless vessel" talk, at which point, his friends come and snap him out of it. Then, over the course of the next few scenes, his friends help stop him from loosing/regain his soul.

My explanation fully covers and explains all aspects of the scene. Yours contains a bunch more questions that need answering, like why the process of removing a soul would ever take emotions and memories since the two are obviously not codependent.

Huh? He was taken to Pandemonium? Lmao. Zidane WAS ALREADY in Pandemonium, he was left there in that damn chair. Your knowledge about the game is really vague. The scene supports what? Garland would still leave him alone knowing that there's still is a process going on?! You are no making sense anymore. Wrong, he became an EMPTY vessel, Mikoto states that "Vessel" is a term used to call the Genomes, including herself AND Zidane. Also, read above.

No, it does not. That process could take just seconds or minutes, no one knows. What evidence do you have that the soul is leaving Zidane's body little by little? Nothing, just as we don't have knowledge about Garland making Genomes, that's irrelevant. Since you need answers that the game lacks, you jump to your own conclusions, I can do the same. In the end, both sides are valid, Tac.

Both sides are not valid at all. I gave logical reasoning behind my explanations, I didn't "assume" anything, as you have blatantly done. Zidane wasn't a "lifeless vessel" at the beginning of that scene. Did you notice that, or what? He didn't start with the "lifeless vessel" talk until near the END. This implies he was slowly drifting away. As the scene goes on, we see him sink more and more into the "lifeless vessel" role.

Your stance is confusing me, honestly. You claim that emotions are linked to the soul, but then you are perfectly fine with Zidane having all his emotions after he lost his soul... which means they AREN'T linked. So which is it? Choose one.

Garland sounds more the fool in YOUR version of the happenings than mine. According to you, Garlands master plan wasn't so great after all, since removing Zidane's soul never fixed anything at all.

MY version has Garlands plan working perfectly, only it was interrupted by Zidane's friends before he could complete it.

Tac, let's leave it for later, I got bored... pinch

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Tac, let's leave it for later, I got bored... pinch

Fine by me.

Lol.

Cloud IS STRONGER LISTEN ZIDANE IS TO CHILDISH DUMMYS CLOUD CAN DO
LIMIT BREAK THAT PROFESSER HOJO PUT INTO HIM CLOUD IS LIKE A SECOUND SEPHITROTH EXEPT HE LOOK WAY DIFFERENT AND HE AIN"T EVIL ZIDANE TAKES NOTHIN SERIOUS PLUS CLOUD HAS SOMMONS AND MATRIA WHO CARES ABOUT PLAYER ZIDANE DOES LIGHT DAMAGE EXPET TRANCE STRENGTH BEATS NIMBLE GET THAT IN UR HEAD

Originally posted by rapswag1
Cloud IS STRONGER LISTEN ZIDANE IS TO CHILDISH DUMMYS CLOUD CAN DO
LIMIT BREAK THAT PROFESSER HOJO PUT INTO HIM CLOUD IS LIKE A SECOUND SEPHITROTH EXEPT HE LOOK WAY DIFFERENT AND HE AIN"T EVIL ZIDANE TAKES NOTHIN SERIOUS PLUS CLOUD HAS SOMMONS AND MATRIA WHO CARES ABOUT PLAYER ZIDANE DOES LIGHT DAMAGE EXPET TRANCE STRENGTH BEATS NIMBLE GET THAT IN UR HEAD

I couldn't tell if that was serious or trolling 😬

Zidane wins because Cloud is so overrated he reeks to high heaven.

My thread have been revived! Lol.

If we base our arguments on Advent Children then we already know Cloud would win.

Now, I don't know if I should respond to Tac. I still believe Garland successfully removed Zidane's soul anyway. Heh.

May as well, it should only take a 748 word response.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
My thread have been revived! Lol.

If we base our arguments on Advent Children then we already know Cloud would win.

Now, I don't know if I should respond to Tac. I still believe Garland successfully removed Zidane's soul anyway. Heh.

Didn't think I'd catch that did ya?

He didn't remove the soul by the way. 😛

If Zidane goes Trance then he spanks Cloud imo. Other than that Cloud has too many other appearences not to win.