NJO Luke vs RoT Bane

Originally posted by Gideon
Oh God. Should we go through each and every one of those feats? Do you really want to?

Because no one denies that many of them are impressive. But you used the adjective "godlike."

I said together with DN and NJO. Put those things together, and you have a character that is using the force on a consistently ridiculous level.

Take them apart and treat them each as an isolated event, and you might be able to put together a case, but that would be taking things out of context, and you won't do that.

http://www.rollingstone.com/news/coverstory/the_cult_of_darth_vader/page/2

...Unless the interview with Vanity Fair appeared in one of the six episodes, it's irrelevant.

I'm not talking about what Lucas says now, which changes all the damn time, I'm asking what his original intent was. His canon intent.

Edit: And then you can explain to me how it's a detriment that I demand proof for your claims.

From Beefy's link:

That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe

What Lucas says, regardless of when he says it, has always been indisputably canon.

Originally posted by truejedi
From Beefy's link:

That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe

According to Gideon's "I'm on the rag" logic, it's not in the movie so it's not his original intent, and therefore it is moot.

TJ
Is Oh God your new catchphrase?

It's copyrighted.

TJ
I said together with DN and NJO. Put those things together, and you have a character that is using the force on a consistently ridiculous level.

You and I must operate under different definitions of consistent. Maybe you'd have a point if we shortened each series by four to six books and put all of the ones in which he does uber things.

TJ
Take them apart and treat them each as an isolated event, and you might be able to put together a case, but that would be taking things out of context, and you won't do that.

Well, taking things apart is sort've what we do when we analyze something.

But I know, I know. I shouldn't let little things like details or context affect my judgment.

It's not "Luke, Jaina, and Jacen slayed an army of Vong due to a Jedi battle meld."

Instead, it's "Luke, Jaina, and Jacenslayed an army of Vongdue to a Jedi battle meldbecause he's awesome!"

DS
This was his intent when he wrote the movies, so I don't know why you have to make up things like "original intent", implying it somehow changed...

Lucas had complete dominion over what did and did not appear in the movies. This is what the movies show:

The Emperor: "The Force is strong in him."

(Not "the Force is overwhelmingly awesome in him he's more powerful than EVERYBODY EVAR!!1!"😉

The Emperor: "He could destroy us."

(Not "He could kick my ass!"😉

Darth Vader: "Luke, you can destroy the Emperor; he has forseen this!"

(Not "You can kick his ass!"😉

As a matter of fact, the movies depict the Emperor tooling Luke 1v1. Luke did destroy the Emperor and Vader: through compassion, not power.

That was his power.

TJ
What Lucas says, regardless of when he says it, has always been indisputably canon.

Is that in the canon structure?

Originally posted by Gideon
Lucas had complete dominion over what did and did not appear in the movies. This is what the movies show:

The Emperor: "The Force is strong in him."

(Not "the Force is overwhelmingly awesome in him he's more powerful than EVERYBODY EVAR!!1!"😉

The Emperor: "He could destroy us."

(Not "He could kick my ass!"😉

Darth Vader: "Luke, you can destroy the Emperor; he has forseen this!"

(Not "You can kick his ass!"😉

As a matter of fact, the movies depict the Emperor tooling Luke 1v1. Luke did destroy the Emperor and Vader: through compassion, not power.

That was his power.

Is that in the canon structure?

And yet again, you do not get to dictate what Lucas meant and how badly he portrayed it or what is canon and what is "original". So once again, I point to:

That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe

That was his intent for the movies and he said it. It's canon, deal with it.

I find it funny though that when discussing the DE comics, you simply avoided further discussion by stating "defeat is defeat". But in this situation, you have a case of the "nuh uhs", and attempt to break everything down.

Its an old argument, but you have never been able to quantify how much the battle-meld helped Luke when he took on 4 of the slayers while Jacen and Jaina took on 2 each. Or in his fight with Shimmrra in which Shimra controlled the gravity in the room.

But THAT isn't the fight that made Luke Uber. (well, the lightning thing kinda did, added anyway)

Luke's darkhole manipulation and planet cloaking is what comes out of that series on top.

His fight versus Thul, and then his "unable to be moved by black-hole in center of the galaxy" were his top feats in DN.

I'll say this: in my mind, Sidious was also godlike in his force exploits.

However, at the end of the day, he wasn't skilled enough in the force to avoid being thrown down a freaking ventilation shaft.

You DO always refer to Luke's low-points, as though they somehow DAMAGE his more powerful moments.

You seem to think that godlike MUST include infallibility, but I disagree. I dont' think one has to prove himself again to be godlike in every possible situation.

Sidious for example, isn't diminshed in mind because of his rather ignamonious ending. He is still godlike, despite his lowpoint of falling down a ventilation shaft.

DS
And yet again, you do not get to dictate what Lucas meant and how badly he portrayed it or what is canon and what is "original".

😐

I have a copy of the Secret History of Star Wars, which is an analysis and cited examination of Star Wars' evolution as a history; anyone who has read it understands quite well that George Lucas changes his mind about everything periodically.

DS
That was his intent for the movies and he said it. It's canon, deal with it.

I'll take that and raise you

"When it comes to absolute canon, the real story of Star Wars, you must turn to the films themselves—and only the films." per Chris Cerasi, one of LFL's former chief editors and canon interpreters.

Or

"Canon refers to an authoritative list of books that the Lucas Licensing editors consider an authentic part of the official Star Wars history. Our goal is to present a continuous and unified history of the Star Wars galaxy, insofar as that history does not conflict with, or undermine the meaning of Mr. Lucas's Star Wars saga of films and screenplays." per Sue Rostini, Lucas Licensing's chief editor.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Canon

DS
I find it funny though that when discussing the DE comics, you simply avoided further discussion by stating "defeat is defeat". But in this situation, you have a case of the "nuh uhs", and attempt to break everything down.

Explain how this situation is similar to that.

Gideon, you are ignoring that something is canon UNLESS it directly contradicts the films. While you are saying "Show me from the films where luke was meant to be more powerful," You should instead be showing us where it says he ISN'T, and WON'T be. Lucas said later he was, and that doesn't directly contradict the movie. Thus its canon.

You argument against it as canon sounds a lot like the "Novel's aren't canon cause you don't see that stuff onscreen" crowd.

TJ
Its an old argument, but you have never been able to quantify how much the battle-meld helped Luke when he took on 4 of the slayers while Jacen and Jaina took on 2 each. Or in his fight with Shimmrra in which Shimra controlled the gravity in the room.

I didn't say it effected his duel with Shimrra. Nor do I have to prove a damn thing about the extent of the battlemeld on Luke's performance.

The fact that he had any help at all means that he cannot be said to have performed those extraordinary feats unaided.

TJ
But THAT isn't the fight that made Luke Uber. (well, the lightning thing kinda did, added anyway)

Merely an example of how details and context significantly alter a fact.

TJ
Luke's darkhole manipulation and planet cloaking is what comes out of that series on top.

His manipulation of the dovin basal has yet to be explained or investigated, as I asked everyone repeatedly to do.

i]TJ[/i]
His fight versus Thul, and then his "unable to be moved by black-hole in center of the galaxy" were his top feats in DN.

Even if that wasn't exaggeration, it brings us right back to consistency. Where is that awesome power everywhere else?

TJ
I'll say this: in my mind, Sidious was also godlike in his force exploits.

However, at the end of the day, he wasn't skilled enough in the force to avoid being thrown down a freaking ventilation shaft.

You DO always refer to Luke's low-points, as though they somehow DAMAGE his more powerful moments.

You seem to think that godlike MUST include infallibility, but I disagree. I dont' think one has to prove himself again to be godlike in every possible situation.

Sidious for example, isn't diminshed in mind because of his rather ignamonious ending. He is still godlike, despite his lowpoint of falling down a ventilation shaft.

...Can you name other lowpoints for Sidious in particular? I've offered dozens for Luke.

Wouldn't the very definition of godlike include infallibility?

Originally posted by Gideon
😐

I have a copy of the Secret History of Star Wars, which is an analysis and cited examination of Star Wars' evolution as a history; anyone who has read it understands quite well that George Lucas changes his mind about everything periodically.

I'll take that and raise you

"When it comes to absolute canon, the real story of Star Wars, you must turn to the films themselves—[b]and only the films." per Chris Cerasi, one of LFL's former chief editors and canon interpreters.

Or

"Canon refers to an authoritative list of books that the Lucas Licensing editors consider an authentic part of the official Star Wars history. Our goal is to present a continuous and unified history of the Star Wars galaxy, insofar as that history does not conflict with, or undermine the meaning of Mr. Lucas's Star Wars saga of films and screenplays." per Sue Rostini, Lucas Licensing's chief editor.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Canon

Explain how this situation is similar to that. [/B]

Hmmm.. Raise me... Lucas' words>all. If he interprets the films based on the logic he used in those interviews, I can totally see it although it's not very well defined. Now unless you have proof that Lucas "periodically changed his mind" regarding this issue, I consider the matter closed. I'm going to sleep but I expect your next post to undoubtedly consist of insult, sarcasm, insult, insult, sarcasm, questioning my sexual orientation, etc.

Originally posted by Gideon

"Canon refers to an authoritative list of books that the Lucas Licensing editors consider an authentic part of the official Star Wars history. Our goal is to present a continuous and unified history of the Star Wars galaxy, insofar as that history does not conflict with, or undermine the meaning of Mr. Lucas's Star Wars saga of films and screenplays." per Sue Rostini, Lucas Licensing's chief editor.

You yourself gave me the quote earlier saying anything that comes from Lucas or Lucas Arts is canon unless it directly contradicts anything else. Your post here doesn't contradict that.

truejedi
Gideon, you are ignoring that something is canon UNLESS it directly contradicts the films. While you are saying "Show me from the films where luke was meant to be more powerful," You should instead be showing us where it says he ISN'T, and WON'T be. Lucas said later he was, and that doesn't directly contradict the movie. Thus its canon.

You argument against it as canon sounds a lot like the "Novel's aren't canon cause you don't see that stuff onscreen" crowd.

That's just it, you see. Formal canon structure does not take into account George Lucas's particular words. Otherwise, why would we have post-Endor Sith? Or Dark Empire. Or Mara Jade.

His opinion only extends so far.

There is nothing in the movies or subsequent EU that says that Luke Skywalker is more powerful than the Emperor or the most powerful Force user ever, is there?

DS
Hmmm.. Raise me... Lucas' words>all. If he interprets the films based on the logic he used in those interviews, I can totally see it although it's not very well defined. Now unless you have proof that Lucas "periodically changed his mind" regarding this issue, I consider the matter closed. I'm going to sleep but I expect your next post to undoubtedly consist of insult, sarcasm, insult, insult, sarcasm, questioning my sexual orientation, etc.

No need, I've already won this round.

Contrary to what Ushgarak says, it was made painfully evident at TFN that George Lucas's words are not official canon.

So with that in mind:

1.) Give me proof that Lucas's words > all. Where is that reflected in the formal canon structure?

Or,

2.) Give me proof that Lucas's intent for Luke's power was reflected clearly and appropriately in his six canon movies.

If you fail to address or concede either of those, it's back to ignore you go.

Originally posted by Gideon
No need, I've already won this round.

So with that in mind:

1.) Give me proof that Lucas's words > all. Where is that reflected in the formal canon structure?

Or,

2.) Give me proof that Lucas's intent for Luke's power was reflected clearly and appropriately in his six canon movies.

If you fail to address or concede either of those, it's back to ignore you go.

Translation: I'm going back on my contention that Lucas' words are Canon because that means I've exposed myself as NOT being objective. As a result, I'll declare myself a winner and claim "ignore", as to shorten the discussion I've already lost.
Gotcha🙂

I'll raise you. Give me proof that someone other than Lucas has more precedent in deciding what's canon. As far as Star WArs is concerned, Lucas' word=it. Then you can show me proof of how George Lucas' original intent differs from his interview. I don't even know why this is a discussion, as you've lost your mind. Here's my advice..

?

I send you a link with the official canon structure; Lucas's opinions aren't on the list. This you ignore

I send you examples of things (Dark Empire, post-Endor Sith, Luke getting married) that Lucas has specifically said does not happen in the Star Wars universe, but happen in the EU, and this you ignore.

And then you ask me to prove that Lucas's words are not canon?

I just did.

And I thought you were going to bed.

Might as well. Back to ignore you go, DS!

Originally posted by Gideon
?

I send you a link with the official canon structure; Lucas's opinions aren't on the list. This you ignore

I send you examples of things (Dark Empire, post-Endor Sith, Luke getting married) that Lucas has specifically said does not happen in the Star Wars universe, but happen in the EU, and this you ignore.

And then you ask me to prove that Lucas's words are not canon?

I just did.

And I thought you were going to bed.

Might as well. Back to ignore you go, DS!

As George Lucas says, the movies are Gospel, and everything else is Gossip

I didn't expect Gideon to argue George Lucas' vision for the original trilogy. THAT is hilarious, thanks for the laugh Gideon. I don't need to put you on ignore because you've clearly lost your mind 🙂

http://www.canonwars.com/SWCanon2.html#III-Canon

On another note, I found a like completely explaining Gideon's behavior.

http://www.canonwars.com/weblog/2009/09/george-lucas-on-matters-of-production.html

Once upon a time, someone was in a fit of desperation to ignore the Lucas position regarding what is or isn't canon and part of his universe. In the process of seeking something to say to counter the obvious, they hit upon the idea of declaring that Lucas really wasn't saying what we thought he was saying.