NJO Luke vs RoT Bane

Originally posted by Gideon
I didn't say it effected his duel with Shimrra. Nor do I have to prove a damn thing about the extent of the battlemeld on Luke's performance.

The fact that he had any help at all means that he cannot be said to have performed those extraordinary feats unaided.

Merely an example of how details and context significantly alter a fact.

His manipulation of the dovin basal has yet to be explained or investigated, as I asked everyone repeatedly to do.

Even if that wasn't exaggeration, it brings us right back to consistency. Where is that awesome power everywhere else?

Spoiler:
in backslash he pins himself to the side of a cliff with the force during a force-induced hurricane., and then 5 minutes later can't push away the force lightning of a Nightsister. its maddingly inconsistent, but there is no denying the power is there.

...Can you name other lowpoints for Sidious in particular? I've offered dozens for Luke.

However, Sidious lost to Mace. In a one-on-one, all other things equal duel. When has that happened with Luke in the last few series? Mace isn't a chump, but Sidious didn't just struggle with him, like you like to point out Luke doing, he lost.

He took long enough to overcome starkiller that the entire Rebel Alliance escaped on a small ship. Once again, not horrible, but a mistake. And he is still godlike.

He did lose to the skywalkers IN HIS PRIME (say it was a team effort if you want) one completely untrained individual, and one Jedi with less than 10 years of training. Is that better than Luke taking a few moments to dispatch Rhea and Vestera?

Spoiler:
in backslash, Luke says that Rhea was at the level of a FOTJ Jedi Master, and Vestera is at the level of a FOTJ Jedi Knight, so they weren't chumps.

Wouldn't the very definition of godlike include infallibility?

Obviously not? almost every Greek and Roman god had a flaw. Almost every God in history for any civilization has had flaws. Besides, it depends on how far exactly you want to take the poetic license of: godlike anyway. Its obviously a literary term.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars_canon#George_Lucas_and_Star_Wars_canon

CHEE: "GL is certainly not bound by the EU, though he's certainly open to using things created in it (Aayla Secura and the Coruscant name, for example). On the other hand, the quote you provide makes it sound like the EU is separate from George's vision of the Star Wars universe. It is not. The EU must follow certain tenets set by George through the films and other guidelines that he provides outside of the films."

G-canon is absolute canon; the movies (their most recent release), the scripts, the novelizations of the movies, the radio plays, and any statements by George Lucas himself. G-canon overrides the lower levels of canon when there is a contradiction. Within G-canon, many fans follow an unofficial progression of canonicity where the movies are the highest canon, followed by the scripts, the novelizations, and then the radio plays.

That should answer that.

See, I don't consider losing a duel with the mighty Mace Windu or beating Starkiller lowpoints.

But there's a fundamental reason why: I don't claim that Palpatine is godlike.

You give Luke that standard and fail to meet it every single time.

Originally posted by Gideon
See, I don't consider losing a duel with the mighty Mace Windu or beating Starkiller lowpoints.

But there's a fundamental reason why: I don't claim that Palpatine is godlike.

You give Luke that standard and fail to meet it every single time.

You failed to address 90% of my post.

truejedi
That should answer that.

Now that I'll accept.

This is what happens when I give you a link and you don't read it Gideon. I'll accept your concession and apology🙂

truejedi
You failed to address 90% of my post.

Because I have elsewhere.

Several of us, Glentract included, can't make heads nor tails of the black hole feat, which is why I asked someone more scientifically inclined to explained what Luke did.

Originally posted by Gideon
See, I don't consider losing a duel with the mighty Mace Windu or beating Starkiller lowpoints.

But there's a fundamental reason why: I don't claim that Palpatine is godlike.

You give Luke that standard and fail to meet it every single time.

You didn't address DE sidious losing to almost untrained skywalkers. Yet you want to call it a lowpoint for Luke when he takes a few minutes to kill someone who is at the level of Jedi Master, when also fighting a Jedi Knight. though it was the skywalkers, their low level of training makes that a pretty low point for sidious.

And by godlike: I mean in relation to other force-users, not in referring to actual meta-physical beings.

And what is so hard to understand about the black hole feat? It is very clearly explained, he used the force to tug on the black hole, which moved it out of the way of a missile. I think the word "tug" is even used in the text. What is it that doesn't make sense?

truejedi
You didn't address DE sidious losing to almost untrained skywalkers.

Because the technique clearly hadn't much to do with skill as it did power. Otherwise, the unborn Anakin Solo's involvement would have been irrelevant, as would Leia's. There is a distinction between the two terms.

Not to mention the scan makes it abundantly clear that Palpatine was caught off guard and not overpowered, but was merely separated from his power.

In Luke's own words, "[Palpatine]'s conquered himself!"

They didn't beat... anyone.

TJ
Yet you want to call it a lowpoint for Luke when he takes a few minutes to kill someone who is at the level of Jedi Master, when also fighting a Jedi Knight. though it was the skywalkers, their low level of training makes that a pretty low point for sidious.

...Palpatine massacred three of the Jedi Order's finest while simultaneously fighting Mace Windu.

I guess I have high standards?

TJ
And by godlike: I mean in relation to other force-users, not in referring to actual meta-physical beings.

But... he's not.

TJ
And what is so hard to understand about the black hole feat? It is very clearly explained, he used the force to tug on the black hole, which moved it out of the way of a missile. I think the word "tug" is even used in the text. What is it that doesn't make sense?

Get Nemesis and/or Nai to examine the passage and I'll take their assessment of it.

Originally posted by Gideon

Get Nemesis and/or Nai to examine the passage and I'll take their assessment of it.

truejedi
very simple question: why would i do that? their assesment, whatever it is, isnt going to trump the text, which is self-explanatory.

...Because I don't understand nor am I inclined to take a physics lesson as to how much effort it takes to move a black hole, adjust it, outwit it, or manipulate it?

Or, better yet, since it's your point and you clearly understand every facet of it, why don't you explain it to me?

The black hole, even if it was a small one generated by the ship, would have at least a mass in magnitudes greater than that of Earth. Consider that Earth if it was turned into a singularity would be mere centimeters in size and then think about a what a Dovin Basal does, absorbing weapons fire. That is an incredible about of mass.

I'd hardly call Luke untrained at that point anyway. Skywalkers have, for whatever reason, always picked up skills fast and DE was years after he reached a level to fight with Vader. All that fighting with the Empire no doubt helped sharpen his skills further, and Palpatine helped train yet more.

And in simple raw amount of force power, Skywalkers are always pretty up there. With Leia and Anakin just adding raw omph and Luke actually directing it, I don't think many/any sith could do well there.

Autokrat
The black hole, even if it was a small one generated by the ship, would have at least a mass in magnitudes greater than that of Earth. Consider that Earth if it was turned into a singularity would be mere centimeters in size and then think about a what a Dovin Basal does, absorbing weapons fire. That is an incredible about of mass.

I see.

TJ, this:

"During the Battle of Dantooine of the Yuuzhan Vong War, Luke tricked a vehicle's dovin basals into colliding its own black hole against itself by using the Force to hold the void against the pull of the dovin basals; then reversing the direction of his own pull, adding it to the pull of the dovin basals, so that the void would collide against the spine of the vehicle" (per Wookieepedia)

...Does not match your account of what happened. Which is pretty much why I want someone scientifically inclined to explain the situation.

All right, I'm hitting the hay. We'll continue this later this week.

...Can you name other lowpoints for Sidious in particular? I've offered dozens for Luke.

I can think of two off the top of my head from DE. The first one was in the comic posted where he gets his ass zapped by a baby edit: Actually it looks like he was zapped by Leia. And secondly he gets Judo thrown by Leia and she pick-pocketed the Holocron off him.. Both of which seem a complete surprise to him, which kinda make his precog skills seem lame.

Gideon
I see.

TJ, this:

"During the Battle of Dantooine of the Yuuzhan Vong War, Luke tricked a vehicle's dovin basals into colliding its own black hole against itself by using the Force to hold the void against the pull of the dovin basals; then reversing the direction of his own pull, adding it to the pull of the dovin basals, so that the void would collide against the spine of the vehicle" (per Wookieepedia)

I still can't believe one would argue the validity of Lucas' statements in regards to canon.

That's an interesting one actually. Perhaps in this case Lucas really is a canon authority but why exactly should he be? Who cares what the storyteller has to say when it's not included within the story he's telling?