NJO Luke vs RoT Bane

Started by Dr McBeefington16 pages

I'm completely shocked that out of anyone with vast SW knowledge, it would be Gideon who questions and disputes Lucas' authority in the realm of canon. I used to think he was objective but this kind of nit picking proves otherwise.

I'm not sure why anyone with any common sense would dispute Lucas' words, it makes no sense at all.. But as evidenced by this common rationalization:

Once upon a time, someone was in a fit of desperation to ignore the Lucas position regarding what is or isn't canon and part of his universe. In the process of seeking something to say to counter the obvious, they hit upon the idea of declaring that Lucas really wasn't saying what we thought he was saying.

Originally posted by Autokrat
The black hole, even if it was a small one generated by the ship, would have at least a mass in magnitudes greater than that of Earth. Consider that Earth if it was turned into a singularity would be mere centimeters in size and then think about a what a Dovin Basal does, absorbing weapons fire. That is an incredible about of mass.

This isn't entirely accurate (I think).

Specifically, the wiki claims that "in principle, a black hole can have any mass above the Planck mass." This would suggest that Luke was doing no more work than moving a compressed pair of protons around, with the strain being from focusing/manipulating such a small point. Grip a pencil very hard and write as small as you can and you will understand this effect.

The point to this is that, based on what we've seen from the Dovin Basals, there cannot be a stellar body-level of gravitational pull from the black holes produced. It is simply not possible given the effects we've seen. (The descriptions of fights near or above planets are notably silent on the ecological devastation wrought by the massive tidal forces brought to bear by such objects.) The dovin basals most likely produce incredibly small black holes. To accomplish their locomotion (or defense) it is likely that the gravitational energy is directed in some way-- dovin basals producing black holes trying to travel in opposite directions would otherwise cancel each others' gravitational pull.

This feat is no nearly as clear-cut as some people would like to make it. It represents a fundamental shift away from real world physics (as I understand them, at least) that means we cannot simply default the feat to "IMPRESSIVE HAXZOR WIN" but must rather examine it more closely.

I'm guessing that whoever wrote the book wasn't really concerned how the logical consequences of having vessels that could generate black holes, even small ones.

If it isn't a black hole, then should it be treated as some unknown phenomenon that the denizens of SW just happen to call black holes?

What if Luke got the Orbalisks?

dun dun dun dun

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
What if Luke got the Orbalisks?

dun dun dun dun

Originally posted by Gideon
Get Nemesis and/or Nai to examine the passage and I'll take their assessment of it.

Wonder how you're going to do that, given that - last time I checked - you had me on ignore in this realms here... 😉

But anyway...
Since I don't have the exact passage here, I will have to go by memories. Correct me, if I'm wrong.

a)
The dovin basal "black holes" have been shown to "absorb" enemy weapon fire. And it has been explained, that this happens via a gravitational field similar to a black hole.

b)
Luke did manage to manipulate the force to counter and even overpower that gravitational pull.

Right so far?
Now. Technically Nemesis is right. A black hole can be a very small phenomenon, which was a reason for critics to attack the experiments scientist wanted to do (and meanwhile did) using the Large Hadron Colider. But, as the Wiki also rightly claims, such miniature black holes would instantly disappear.

However. If we assume that the dovin basal phenomenon is caused by miniature black holes, the energy Luke used could be as low as 1 TeV, which equals the kinetic energy of a flying mosquito. Hard to imagine that working against that kind of force would cause any exhaustion in Luke.

However. It's quite unlikely that dovin basals only create that small bit of a gravitational pull, provided that the tactic known as "Yo'gand's Core" is based upon pulling a moon out of orbit using a single dovin basal.

Considering that fact, one might have a look at this little page here. 3.8E28 J of energy to reproduce that feat, which is an "oversimplified" and "low" estimation. Just for comparison: The same amount of energy is produced by our sun in 10 seconds. So simply imagine that Luke could exert more actual energy than a sun. One could also imagine that Luke could force push / pull a moon out of orbit, if that can be better imagined. Is that enough to qualify as "godlike"?

However. One should be careful when attempting to measure some fancy metaphysical energy field with RL terms. Meaning that this estimation could be totally wrong considering the fictional nature of the force. 😉

Accepted.

Nai
However. It's quite unlikely that dovin basals only create that small bit of a gravitational pull, provided that the tactic known as "Yo'gand's Core" is based upon pulling a moon out of orbit using a single dovin basal.
You don't think it's possible that the dovin basal Luke grappled with didn't generate the kind of black hole used to pull planetary bodies together? The voids created by different dovin basals, if I recall correctly, vary in size and strength. I doubt the dovin basals that propel starfighters could tear a moon [of Earth's size, apparently?] out of orbit.

If anyone here understands how dovin basals actually work, feel free to step in. I'm assuming that the gravitational field created by the dovin basal at a point in local space is tethered to it by [an]other field(s?) of equal or greater strength, which is also the only way I can immediately rationalize your idea of Luke "overriding" the void's pull; it'd be via proxy, as he's overriding a equal or greater force relative to that of the void being manipulated.

Nai, I'm going to have to disagree with the direction you've taken with your analysis.

As Faunus noted, the strength of the various Dovin Basals' singularities varies greatly. In fact, if they did not then the basals themselves would be largely unusable as transportation mechanisms. The force of gravity varies with the inverse of the square of the distance, meaning that each singularity would have to be placed with much, much more accuracy than they appear to be. The basals would also have to have a much longer "casting range" under this system.

Nai takes two things as given:


a)
The dovin basal "black holes" have been shown to "absorb" enemy weapon fire. And it has been explained, that this happens via a gravitational field similar to a black hole.

b)
Luke did manage to manipulate the force to counter and even overpower that gravitational pull.


The second is dubious, even if we allow for the fact that it is a vaguely remembered detail from a poorly written book. Gideon pulled the Wookiee's description, so we'll use that:
"During the Battle of Dantooine of the Yuuzhan Vong War, Luke tricked a vehicle's dovin basals into colliding its own black hole against itself by using the Force to hold the void against the pull of the dovin basals; then reversing the direction of his own pull, adding it to the pull of the dovin basals, so that the void would collide against the spine of the vehicle" (per Wookieepedia)

This indicates that Luke wasn't overcoming the (yet undefined) mass of a black hole alone. Rather, Luke was overcoming the manipulation of a Dovin Basal on a black hole. The difference here is staggering. Luke would, in the first case, have to overcome the inertia of a (presumably) very massive object. That assumption is, I believe, behind the awe given to this particular feat. However, the actual mechanism may have been very different. I am aware that this isn't the source material, but I have no reason to believe it is inaccurate.

The description given indicates that Luke simply canceled out (or even just muted) the controlling basal had over the black hole in question. Unless you want to argue that each ship-sized Basal is capable of putting out energy on the scale of a star it is incredibly likely that some specialized mechanism is behind the manipulation of singularities for maneuvering. This force is all that Luke would have to match. This scenario allows us to avoid a Stellar-Luke (which is not likely in given his other showings) and remain in canon. Luke would only have to match the applied force enough to get the Basal to overcompensate. Then his job is done for him, and down it goes.

In this way it becomes clear that Luke does not necessarily exceed the Sun in energy output (which is an idea I simply refuse to consider). This conclusion is upheld when we consider the variation between the singularities we've seen generated. Some Dovin Basal black holes are capable of absorbing various blaster shots, while other propel Vong ships through space. The two systems operate largely independently of each other, as seen by CoralSkippers maneuvering and using this active defense simultaneously. If the 'shields' cast a gravitational field strong enough to affect the course of a ship then locomotion would quickly become impossible, as ships get pulled towards blasts that they are being shielded from.
(Credit to Faunus for a much more concise version of this argument that I hadn't realized was there until after I'd already typed it up.)

From all this we can see that Luke's divinity is far from established. But what about the feat itself?

Nai, you say that the black holes would evaporate almost instantly. Isn't that what we see in the books? The Basals create the singularity, use it for whatever they need, and then move on. When their attention is divided (or their will broken) does the singularity remain? I can't remember, but I don't believe so. Moreover, the regions of space where battles take place are not left riddled with black holes. It seems entirely likely that the black holes are not self-sustaining (or, at least, radiate themselves away extremely quickly). After the missile/blast is absorbed, the black hole does disappear. This lends credence to the idea that the singularities are actually smaller than the [lower limit of size].

On top of this we have the fantasy elements of the black holes. When they are activated as a method of propulsion, the effects are limited to a single coralskipper. In Star Wars dogfights the fighters tend to become mixed up in a sort of scrum. Would a propulsion system that interferes with the trajectory of your allies be carried into battle? It seems unlikely. Also, I would be hard pressed to find an example of an Alliance ship being pulled by the singularity. A black hole (without any fantasy overlay) would pull all ships around it, not just the one that generated it.

It seems likely that the actual system includes some sort of directionality; when moving, all of the gravitons are pointed in a certain direction, so the effects of a smaller mass are multiplied and can be controlled. Under this system the mass of the black hole that Luke moved might be much smaller indeed-- one third or less (depending on the spread of gravitational pull) of any equivalent body. So from your 3.8E28 J we can deduct two thirds, and then lower that even more if the dovin basals only use as much pull as is necessary for the situation.

I'm not convinced the feat means much at all right now.

The black hole feat seems to be out there by itself in the middle of no where. We can't say with a reasonable degree of certainty whether it's ten times the power of the Sun or if it's equivalent to the energy of a flying mosquito. What we do know though is that neither Luke nor Kyp have ever demonstrated TK on that level at any other time. Why? Because they didn't feel like ever trying? I don't think so. Because of this I think it's safe to assume that it's on the much lower end. Still very impressive, but not godlike. Black hole seems to be a misnomer.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
What we do know though is that neither Luke nor Kyp have ever demonstrated TK on that level at any other time.

Luke (in DN) uses the force to pin himself to the deck in such a way that "the black hole that holds the galaxy together couldn't move him."

^Hyperbole perhaps....? We never see this power demonstrated in a quantifiable manner.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
^Hyperbole perhaps....?

Its listed as fact, just like any other quote from OOU narrators. If this is hyperbole, so is Yoda being the "greatest foe the darkness had ever known" and so is Sidious being "the greatest master of evil."

We never see this power demonstrated in a quantifiable manner. [/B]

What is your idea of quantifiable? You don't want to call a Dovin Basil a black-hole, i've picked up on that. Now you just had an actual black hole, called a black hole, used to describe it, and you call it hyperbole. So by quantifiable, do you mean in such a way as you would accept?

Originally posted by truejedi
Its listed as fact, just like any other quote from OOU narrators. If this is hyperbole, so is Yoda being the "greatest foe the darkness had ever known" and so is Sidious being "the greatest master of evil."

My main point is that if something seems way out of whack, it probably is. Do the statements about Yoda and Sidious seem ridiculous? Not to me. There is plenty of things backing them up and nothing backing up this particular statement about Luke.

Originally posted by truejedi
What is your idea of quantifiable? You don't want to call a Dovin Basil a black-hole, i've picked up on that. Now you just had an actual black hole, called a black hole, used to describe it, and you call it hyperbole. So by quantifiable, do you mean in such a way as you would accept?

As in something that we could apply to a fight in a logical manner.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
My main point is that if something seems way out of whack, it probably is. Do the statements about Yoda and Sidious seem ridiculous? Not to me. There is plenty of things backing them up and nothing backing up this particular statement about Luke.

Though there are the two moments, backing each other up. You have simply dismissed each one as being unsupported, instead of viewing them together.


As in something that we could apply to a fight in a logical manner.

The quote about the black hole TK is in the middle of a fight with Raynar THul.

I just tried to access sweu.ru to download the final book in the Dark Nest Trilogy (since my hard copy is at home) and its apparently password-protected now, accessible only to those who have a registered account.

But, once again, we might have to examine the prose to assess whether or not Luke was really immovable to that extent.

What Glentract means, simply, is that Luke has not demonstrated this level of telekinesis in any other situation in which it would be useful. This has nothing to do with some esoteric technique or arcane ritual, but simple telekinesis -- arguably the most basic power of either Sith or Jedi. Why could Luke not wield this against Lumiya? Or Caedus, during their duel? Or the Hidden One?

There are clearly limits to this power, one way or another.

Originally posted by truejedi
Though there are the two moments, backing each other up. You have simply dismissed each one as being unsupported, instead of viewing them together.

Because they are totally out of line of the with the rest of Luke's demonstrated abilities.

Originally posted by truejedi
The quote about the black hole TK is in the middle of a fight with Raynar THul.

So we know that Raynar couldn't move him. Luke's TK has never been shown to be on such a high level though.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Because they are totally out of line of the with the rest of Luke's demonstrated abilities.

So we know that Raynar couldn't move him. Luke's TK has never been shown to be on such a high level though.

DG: You dismiss the Dovin basil because "Luke's TK has never been shown to be on such a high level.

So I say: Wait, in DN, it is also referenced as being that high.

You reply: That can't be correct, because "Luke's TK has never been shown to be on such a high level.

it doesn't make sense.

Simply discounting something because the character hasn't shown a feat on that level would be illogical.

😕

Unless I'm very much mistaken, from what Nai, Autokrat, Nemesis, Glentract, and Eminence have explained, Luke's manipulation of the dovin basal is not on the same order of magnitude as rooting himself so firmly in the Force that the galaxy's central black hole could not move him.

It's still unprecedented.