Beatrix (FF9) vs. Cloud (FF7)

I didn't read all of that, but I did notice that most of the examples came from Advent Children or other similar future projects. I might point out that the ability to perform such feats is pretty basic in the Final Fantasy universe. Just look at Dissidia. None of the characters could do what they do in those games originally. Just as Zidane got an upgrade in Dissidia, Beatrix would also receive one should she be included in modern games. The developers even admitted they weren't worried about keeping it realistic to what the original characters could do in the first games.

Bottom line, you cannot use new game and combat design to prove someone's superiority over older versions.

Sure you can.

When the feats are better, you certainly can.

Frankly nothing Zidane did in Dissidia is canon, nor as impressive as Cloud's feats.

Sure, Beatrix MIGHT be capable of similar feats were she put in a more modern media work, but she might not.

Logically, we shouldn't assume that she is as good as Cloud when nothing points to that.

I showed combined feats from Crisis Core, Dirge Of Cerberus, Advent Children, Before Crisis and Final Fantasy VII.

All things Cloud has done. Now I expect some feats from said other character to combat my own.

Also, don't go by supposition, you're assuming she'd be as strong as Cloud.

Yea, the guy with swordsmanship to match the greatest in history, empowered by the power of a goddess and a life-wiping alien, and a will strong enough to remain constant in the lifestream and best Sephiroth's will.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Sure you can.

When the feats are better, you certainly can.

But if they were worse you couldn't?

Originally posted by NemeBro
Frankly nothing Zidane did in Dissidia is canon, nor as impressive as Cloud's feats.

But they are a demonstration of the new fighting system recent Final Fantasy titles are going for. Cloud is only able to perform those feats because he has a ton of recent representations when they "upgraded" the fighting style. The fact that Zidane and every other Final Fantasy character in Dissidia can do the same only furthers the point. The modern representations of characters abilities aren't evidence of things they can perform and other Final Fantasy characters can't. They are evidence of the style of fighting Final Fantasy is going toward in general.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Sure, Beatrix MIGHT be capable of similar feats were she put in a more modern media work, but she might not.

Logically, we shouldn't assume that she is as good as Cloud when nothing points to that.

But I think there are reasons to think that. At least enough to debate about it.

Originally posted by Enfathiel
I showed combined feats from Crisis Core, Dirge Of Cerberus, Advent Children, Before Crisis and Final Fantasy VII.

All things Cloud has done. Now I expect some feats from said other character to combat my own.

Also, don't go by supposition, you're assuming she'd be as strong as Cloud.

Yea, the guy with swordsmanship to match the greatest in history, empowered by the power of a goddess and a life-wiping alien, and a will strong enough to remain constant in the lifestream and best Sephiroth's will.

I'm not just assuming she's stronger than Cloud. I'm rejecting your reasons for claiming Cloud is stronger than her. I have already explained why Advent Children and the rest are not good representations of characters abilities concerning past versions of Final Fantasy characters.

Show me any feat from Dissidia matching any of the feats I showed.

You're just telling me "you can't use this because It has better feats. So Nyan!"

Originally posted by Enfathiel
Show me any feat from Dissidia matching any of the feats I showed.

You're just telling me "you can't use this because It has better feats. So Nyan!"

That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying these feats are modern "upgrades" concerning Final Fantasy. It isn't limited to Cloud or FF7, it's the way recent Final Fantasy works in general now. The only reason Beatrix doesn't have clear examples of this type of ability is because she has not been introduced in a recent Final Fantasy game or movie. Thus, you have to look at her original version compared to Cloud's original version if you want to have a valid debate.

That's completely ridiculous. Assuming that they'll get as good a feats as Cloud's simply because of newness.

If that were true, Lightning would have comparable feats to Cloud. Yet she does not even have comparable feats to Second Class Zack.

Your hypothesis is flawed.

Originally posted by TacDavey
But if they were worse you couldn't?

That wasn't actually what I meant, and I think you know that.

But they are a demonstration of the new fighting system recent Final Fantasy titles are going for. Cloud is only able to perform those feats because he has a ton of recent representations when they "upgraded" the fighting style. The fact that Zidane and every other Final Fantasy character in Dissidia can do the same only furthers the point. The modern representations of characters abilities aren't evidence of things they can perform and other Final Fantasy characters can't. They are evidence of the style of fighting Final Fantasy is going toward in general.

Which is why Lightning was able to do all the things we saw in Advent Children in Final Fantasy XIII. Oh wait, no, she couldn't. FFVII is clearly unique in that regard, and Dissidia is, once more, noncanon. Characters were amped or weakened to create a balanced, fun gameplay system. Ideally, anyway.

As of now, FFVII is the only canon series that has demonstrated these feats. FFX and XIII did not. So boo on you.

But I think there are reasons to think that. At least enough to debate about it.

Name them.

Heck can she even break Cloud's durability? I showed earlier he posses multi city-block to country durability based on feats.

Or react to his speed? Even fodder such as Turks and Second Class Zack were casually bullet-timing with zero effort.

Or not break her arm against his strenght? This is the guy who traded blows with Sephiroth, broke Bahamut Sin while deathly Ill, and cut through the Omega Weapon's mako constructed metallic alloy.

Originally posted by Enfathiel
Heck can she even break Cloud's durability? I showed earlier he posses multi city-block to country durability based on feats.

Originally posted by NemeBro
You're going to have to elaborate on this bit.

From tanking the Tremor Flare to tanking the Northern Crater blowing up and then falling down the hole. It was in my previous post...check the durability section.

Originally posted by Enfathiel
That's completely ridiculous. Assuming that they'll get as good a feats as Cloud's simply because of newness.

If that were true, Lightning would have comparable feats to Cloud. Yet she does not even have comparable feats to Second Class Zack.

Your hypothesis is flawed.

On the contrary, Lightning was performing many Advent Children like fights. Just look at her fight in the train at the beginning. Now compare that to fights scene in previous Final Fantasy's. Not to mention her ability to leap great heights and fall from them as well.

And I never said that they will become as good as Cloud just because they are new. It's still possible to have new characters that are weaker or stronger than one another. My point was that the style of fighting has evolved to fit more with Advent Children and Dissidia. So any newer game will likely have said style of fighting.

For example, let's say there was a character in FF7 who was canonically stronger than Cloud. But we never see him fight in Advent Children or any other place outside of the original FF7. Would you assume he could do the kind of things Cloud could do in Advent Children? Of course, because he would be upgraded like everyone else. The fact is if he was stronger than Cloud in FF7, he's going to continually be stronger than Cloud in Advent Children. Why? Because Cloud didn't gain new abilities with Advent Children. The style was just changed, nothing more. Which means if someone was stronger than his FF7 form, they will continue to be stronger regardless of whether or not they have had an Advent Children like movie.

Which is why, if they don't have a new version of themselves to go off of, you have to compare them on equal ground. If Beatrix was stronger than Cloud's FF7 form, she'll be stronger than his Advent Children one.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Which is why Lightning was able to do all the things we saw in Advent Children in Final Fantasy XIII. Oh wait, no, she couldn't. FFVII is clearly unique in that regard, and Dissidia is, once more, noncanon. Characters were amped or weakened to create a balanced, fun gameplay system. Ideally, anyway.

As of now, FFVII is the only canon series that has demonstrated these feats. FFX and XIII did not. So boo on you.

Ignore feats for a second and focus on style. Lightning has the same style of fighting as Advent Children, the only difference is she isn't cutting buildings. And even if they didn't revamp the fighting to the degree they did in Advent Children, the point still stands that Advent Children was a revamp. Cloud could do none of those things in FF7. It was a change in fighting style, nothing more. If a character was stronger than Cloud was in FF7, they will still be stronger. Since Beatrix has no new upgraded version to go off of, you have to look at them on even ground. Back before the redone fighting style.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Name them.

I have been naming them in this thread.

On the contrary, Lightning was performing many Advent Children like fights. Just look at her fight in the train at the beginning. Now compare that to fights scene in previous Final Fantasy's. Not to mention her ability to leap great heights and fall from them as well.

And I never said that they will become as good as Cloud just because they are new. It's still possible to have new characters that are weaker or stronger than one another. My point was that the style of fighting has evolved to fit more with Advent Children and Dissidia. So any newer game will likely have said style of fighting.

What? Lol? When did Lightning solo a Bahamut, or cut skyscrapers effortlessly while flying over Midgar? Lightning's display is unimpressive compared to Cloud in AC. You're just assuming because they are newer, they have the same substance. Which is laughable to say the least.

You're grossling pulling some half-assed explanation to disregard FFVII's compilation feats.

Have you ever heard of style over substance? That's the fallacy you are commiting here. You assume style will triumph over substance.
Even though the substance and context of FFVII's feats wouldn't change If it was in CG or not.

You could show me pixels of Cloud doing all the things my post mentioned, It would still be the exact same thing. The Compilation of FFVII simply has better feats. You need to learn how to deal with that, friend. No one's going to buy this silly excuse.

Cloud tanked a slash from Jenova/Sephiroth in mid-FFVII. That's a better tanking feat than what Beatrix could even hope to dish out.

For example, let's say there was a character in FF7 who was canonically stronger than Cloud. But we never see him fight in Advent Children or any other place outside of the original FF7. Would you assume he could do the kind of things Cloud could do in Advent Children? Of course, because he would be upgraded like everyone else. The fact is if he was stronger than Cloud in FF7, he's going to continually be stronger than Cloud in Advent Children. Why? Because Cloud didn't gain new abilities with Advent Children. The style was just changed, nothing more. Which means if someone was stronger than his FF7 form, they will continue to be stronger regardless of whether or not they have had an Advent Children like movie.

Which is why, if they don't have a new version of themselves to go off of, you have to compare them on equal ground. If Beatrix was stronger than Cloud's FF7 form, she'll be stronger than his Advent Children one.

Um-huh. Because you are 100% sure she would display feats with the same substance as Cloud in his compilation? And not those of Lightning's? Who had feats significantly weaker than Cloud's?

Like I said, all you're doing here is assumig grossly out of nowhere this character can perform feats from the same context as Cloud's because she's older than him.

And IX has some good rendered cutscenes, they just lack the substance.

Oh, and most of the stronger feats I showed in that post were from FFVII It'self. Go tackle them.

I have been naming them in this thread.

Sure. I have not seen you name one feat in favor of your character.

Originally posted by Enfathiel
What? Lol? When did Lightning solo a Bahamut

She gets to solo Bahamut in 13-2

I know. But I worded It poorly. What I meant, is the feats from the Bahamut fight.

Like tanking Tremor Flare or breaking It's armor(which stood attacks from all of AVALANCHE) and swatting It from the sky.

Lightning dosen't have feats such as those, even in her newness.

The point is style dosen't override substance.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Lightning was performing many Advent Children like fights. Just look at her fight in the train at the beginning. Now compare that to fights scene in previous Final Fantasy's. Not to mention her ability to leap great heights and fall from them as well.

For example, let's say there was a character in FF7 who was canonically stronger than Cloud. But we never see him fight in Advent Children or any other place outside of the original FF7. Would you assume he could do the kind of things Cloud could do in Advent Children? Of course, because he would be upgraded like everyone else. The fact is if he was stronger than Cloud in FF7, he's going to continually be stronger than Cloud in Advent Children. Why? Because Cloud didn't gain new abilities with Advent Children. The style was just changed, nothing more. Which means if someone was stronger than his FF7 form, they will continue to be stronger regardless of whether or not they have had an Advent Children like movie.

Which is why, if they don't have a new version of themselves to go off of, you have to compare them on equal ground. If Beatrix was stronger than Cloud's FF7 form, she'll be stronger than his Advent Children one.

Tac, I don't know about Lightning but, in Final Fantasy VIII the White SeeDs can easily leap great heights and the main characters can fall from them as well, so I think that newer graphics (in that case) are not applicable. While I agree that some of the old Final Fantasy characters would be able to perform similar destructive feats as Cloud (since they are equal or stronger than him), we still don't have evidence for Beatrix. I see no reason to think that she would be capable of acomplish stunts of that caliber.

That's a good analogy, except Beatrix it's not a Final Fantasy VII character. That could apply to, let's say, Zangan (Tifa's mentor) if he were alive.

Thing is, Final Fantasy VII has been ret-conned. We have Crisis Core (which is pre-FFVII) and a young Zack can block machine gun bullets with his sword. This means that the characters always performed these feats.

Not to mention, weaker weapons were tanking city-busters in FFVII, and Cloud in DoC easily cut the Omega Weapon with one sword. Not only that, he matched AC/C Sephiroth in strenght, and Sephiroth's weakest incarnation could decapitate Jenova. Sephiroth also has ridiculous strenght feats.

Cloud is just too fast, strong, and durable for this opponent.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Ignore feats for a second and focus on style.

Why in the hell would I do that?

Lightning has the same style of fighting as Advent Children, the only difference is she isn't cutting buildings.

Or dodging/deflecting bullets. Or leaping hundreds of feet in the air while fighting.

And even if they didn't revamp the fighting to the degree they did in Advent Children, the point still stands that Advent Children was a revamp.

Irrelevant. The feats are better than what Beatrix has shown.

Cloud could do none of those things in FF7. It was a change in fighting style, nothing more. If a character was stronger than Cloud was in FF7, they will still be stronger. Since Beatrix has no new upgraded version to go off of, you have to look at them on even ground. Back before the redone fighting style.

And yet also proves that Cloud and friends are much stronger than Beatrix, based on showings, not your speculation. Even ground nothing. Beatrix is never even implied to be as strong as Cloud is shown to be.

I have been naming them in this thread.

Do not recall.

Lol this not finished yet?

You all seem to be misunderstanding my points here. I am not assuming Beatrix can leap buildings and cut skyscrapers. Nor did I ever claim that Lightning could do that, nor did I ever claim that being newer means you are as strong as Cloud.

I'm simply pointing out the change in fighting style. Do any of you disagree with the fact that Cloud could not do Advent Children stuff in FF7? The fighting style changed to the newer version. That's why Cloud get's a ton of new feats. But that doesn't mean Cloud got so much stronger between the events of FF7 and Advent Children, that he went from not being able to do that to being able to do that. It means the style originally used to portray characters (used with all old characters such as Beatrix and Zidane and Squall and Cloud) was removed and replaced with an updated version.

Here's the problem. Beatrix never got the upgrade. She isn't in any new movies or games. So how can we logically decide if she can beat Cloud or not? You go back to the roots. If she can beat Cloud in FF7 form, (since, again, Cloud didn't get a strength upgrade from FF7 to Advent Children, he got a style upgrade) then it logically stands that she can beat Cloud's Advent Children form. Unless it can be shown that there was a significant strength increase from FF7 to Advent Children, but I don't think there is.