Beatrix (FF9) vs. Cloud (FF7)

Originally posted by Nephthys
Theres no proof the party died at the end, thats just an interpretation.

It's the most logical explanation, just as discussed in the Zidane versus Cloud thread, Neph. Your suggestions and points were already refuted. Bringing that subject into this fight for the sake of arguing is irrelevant.

Originally posted by Enfathiel
Anyway, I really need some Beatrix feats. I've shown tonnes for Cloud and have nothing to compare against.

According to Beatrix, she killed 100 soldiers. And then, well, beat the party three times. That's it. We don't have anything to quantify.

I've already posted the source material for Cloud's feats, but just a reminder than:

Strenght:

- Easily slices through chunks of buildings with an incomplete sword.

- Matches AC/C Sephiroth's sword strikes, which are strong enough to demolish shopping-mall sized metal structures in one blow, one-shot summons, cut of jenova's head, slice the mako cannon with after shocks and easily and completely break SOLDIER's swords.

- Easily cuts through crystalized mako with incomplate swords. He cut through Loz and Yazoo's constructs and even cut through the Omega Weapon's mako construct.

- Easily defeated Kadaj with one Braver - an opponet stated to be on the strenght or stronger than FFVII Sephiroth.

- Defeated Jenova DEATH alone.

- With a single sword, he re-sirected the Remnant's large bulding buster.

Speed:

- Easily bullet times while morbidly depressed and deathly ill. Not only that but reacts to two other high-end bullet timers at the same time.

- Easily reacts to Sephiroth's fastest incarnation, Sephiroth's weakest incarnation being able to: fly large parts of the world in minutes(It's implied he flew from Corel to Junon in less than 10 minutes), blitz Zack, who could dodge bullets while a teen and dodge omnidirectional fire.

- Has dodged lightning in Gaiea'a Cliffs and has dodged a lightning bolt summoned by Kadaj.

- Easily covers large parts of Midgar in moments during his fight with Sephiroth.

Durability:

- Tanked Bahamut Sin's Tremor Flare while deathly ill.

- Tanked a slash from FFVII Sephiroth.

- Tanked the mako explosion at the Northern Crater + the fall down to the core and a day in the lifestream.

- Tanked the remnant's large building buster.

- Tanked several punches from Loz.

Originally posted by Enfathiel
Yes, he could. Second Class Zack and Turks were easily bullet-timing in the Before Crisis Era. FFVII Cloud is far above those people raching a certain point in the game.

It's just difficult to show with VII's cutscenes. But not with IX's.

That still won't help your case. FFVII Cloud was still above casual bullet-timers and has ridiculous tanking feats. Not to mention hurts Weapons, tades blows with Sephiroth and defeated Jenova DEATH all alone.

In the end, friend, you're taking style over substance. Even if you assume Beatrix was made again now, you'd have to prove she'd get as good a feats as Cloud and not say...Lightning, Vaan, or characters such as the Turks.

Ok wait what? 😕

How was it not difficult to show with 9, they didn't even have an actual action cgi.

Cloud didn't dodge anything in FF7, he just walked away from bad aim. Idk what he tanked in the original game that was impressive. Weapons are optional bosses, that really leaves that as a featless option. Trades blows with Sephiroth.... In the original?.... Not that he had a party there with him when the fight happened or that the last 1 on 1 match was at all a mental thing. 😐

Well so far using JUST THE ORIGINAL FF7, what exactly has Cloud done really? Just like the assumption that if FF9 was to reboot or have some cgi movie she would have better feats, assume FF7 never had the extra games or movies but the creators still had in mind that Cloud was capable of such things.

Honestly, even if we ignore the fact that FF7 has spinoffs, Cloud, through sheer use of logic, has better feats than Beatrix.

How was it not difficult to show with 9, they didn't even have an actual action cgi.

"Action CGI"?

They showed Zidane in some pretty intense action at the Ilfa tree. And the summons.

But yet, ntohing of any substance that outweigh's VII.

Cloud didn't dodge anything in FF7, he just walked away from bad aim

The guards with machine-guns that fire 15 rounds a second just magicaly miss the guy? They're firing directly at him in the start of the game. He even dodged lightning in Gaea's Cliffs.

Not that It even matters, Before Crisis had no CG and Turks were easily dodging bullets.

And again, It's been established that the lowest of tiers in VII can dodge/block machine-gun fire.

Idk what he tanked in the original game that was impressive

1) A slash from FFVII Sephiroth. Keep in mind a weaker incarnation can one-shot summons, Fuhito-created monster and slice the Sister Ray with aftershocks.

2) The Mako Explosion at the northern Crater, the fall down to the core of the planet and a day in the lifestream.

There are more, but you get the picture.

Weapons are optional bosses, that really leaves that as a featless option.

?

YouTube video

YouTube video

Trades blows with Sephiroth.... In the original?.... Not that he had a party there with him when the fight happened or that the last 1 on 1 match was at all a mental thing.

That's where you're mis-informed.

The end battle was Cloud and Sephiroth's spiritual aspects fighting in the lifestream, because Cloud enterd astral form and followed him there.

This is explained in Maiden and Case Of The Lifesteam - Black. And they even fought in a sword fight with their actual moves.

Which means It's how their fight happened in the real world. Just round 2 without help this time.

Well so far using JUST THE ORIGINAL FF7, what exactly has Cloud done really? Just like the assumption that if FF9 was to reboot or have some cgi movie she would have better feats, assume FF7 never had the extra games or movies but the creators still had in mind that Cloud was capable of such things.

What has he done? He's beaten casual bullet timers, he's hurt weapons, defeated Jenova's body parts, traded blows with Seph and tanked some seriously ridiculous stuff.

And you do have to understand, the extra games were the showcases for the other feats not because of the CGI. Some of the best feats, like Cloud fighting AC/C Seph or cuting the Omega Weapon would require no CGI. And Isn't that doing just what we said Tac should avoid doing? Assuming?

Originally posted by Enfathiel
And you do have to understand, the extra games were the showcases for the other feats not because of the CGI. Some of the best feats, like Cloud fighting AC/C Seph or cuting the Omega Weapon would require no CGI. And Isn't that doing just what we said Tac should avoid doing? Assuming?

If Cloud could do Advent Children feats in the original... why didn't he?

It's clear that Advent Children, and the recent touch ups of FF7, have changed in their fighting styles. Notice that Cloud had to climb up a pipe to get over a wall in the Midgar slums. Now I wonder why he didn't just run up it? Or better yet, cut through it?

Quite frankly, claiming that Cloud was suppose to be able to do Advent Children stunts in the original but couldn't is absurd. It's obvious there was a shift in style, the developers even admitted it in an interview.

The main problem you keep having is apparently not understanding my point. I'm not saying Beatrix necessarily can do what Cloud can do if she got a new movie or game. I'm saying there is no new movie or game, and as such we have to look else where to determine if she can fight Cloud or not. How do we do this? We go back to the characters before the fighting style change occurred.

No, you're not getting my argument. I'm going to oversimplfy It in this:

I'm assuming that Beatrix can't do the feats FFVII chracters have no because of the style of the old game, but the susbtance. They don't have any feats with th substance of VII's.

You're assuming the latter feats don't count because their feats alledgedly came from a style change. Which is untrue because in BC(before AC/C) had such people as The Legend, a turk below the power of a SOLDIER, easily dodging Tseng's bullets. And Tseng himself was keeping up with him.

And because the latter games - after the style change- don't posses as good a feats.

In XI, XII, XIII or XIIIV no low tier is casually dodging machine-gun bullets or bullet-timing.

The feats didn't come from a style change, they came from the ability to finally show them. Substance over style.

But as we can see, all the newer games, even with the so-called "style change" don't get the feats VII gets.

Originally posted by Nephthys
They were fighting inside a dimension formed from the abstract parts of the collective consciousness of the planet. Them being dead is hardly the most likely explanation for what happened.

Oh well ok, if you insist.

We squashed this discussion months ago.

I don't recall that ever happening.

"Necron's introductory speech.

"You stand before the final dimension, and I am the darkness of eternity..."

Kuja is controlled by fear. So he wants to destroy everything.

"The only cure for this fear is total destruction. Kuja was a victim of his own fear."

This just a theory. Now it has been proven by Kuja's action. Destruction is the end of all fears.

"To return everything back to the zero world...

...in a world of nothing, fear does not exist. This is the world that all life desires."

"If u look carefully he actually is "vaguely" mentioned. He is mentioned as the thing that earth summoned a long time ago. It isn't just Ark they were afraid of and in Oveliert, The magic place as you recall. If you lok at the walls when u meet the big globe there is a picture of him. It is hard to see cause of quality but he is there. I am a man of incredible observation.... See it for yourself if you have time... And let me know if you see him."

"Also the reason Necron came to beat all your asses is because if you actually read anything Kuja said in disc 3 you would understand Kuja said that the world wont exist without him meaning he would summon Necron to end the world. Necron also means death in Latin or Greek, something like that."

"castilogne knows what he's talking about. Everything else mentioned here is just speculation. Necron is the spiritual form of the Iifa Tree. Read up on what Garland says to Zidane about the soul cycle. He specifically mentions that Zidane only saw the "material form of the tree." Necron dies, the Iifa Tree dies. If Necron were irrelevant to the plot, the Iifa Tree exploding would have absolutely no purpose."

"To be honest, I always believed Necron to be the dark part of the Crystal. I mean, as he pretty much said, where there's life their's death. The Crystal grants life, so thus it grants death as well.

Yeah, kinda made more sense in my head."

Oh man, look at all these other theories I found on youtube! So awesome!

Originally posted by Nephthys
"Also the reason Necron came to beat all your asses is because if you actually read anything Kuja said in disc 3 you would understand Kuja said that the world wont exist without him meaning he would summon Necron to end the world. Necron also means death in Latin or Greek, something like that."

No one knew Necron existed

Originally posted by Nephthys
"castilogne knows what he's talking about. Everything else mentioned here is just speculation. Necron is the spiritual form of the Iifa Tree. Read up on what Garland says to Zidane about the soul cycle. He specifically mentions that Zidane only saw the "material form of the tree." Necron dies, the Iifa Tree dies. If Necron were irrelevant to the plot, the Iifa Tree exploding would have absolutely no purpose."

lol Iifa tree theory

Originally posted by Kuja9001
No one knew Necron existed

lol Iifa tree theory

Really? Well I suppose you saying so is good enough.

lol Iifa tree theory counter-argument.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Really? Well I suppose you saying so is good enough.

lol Iifa tree theory counter-argument.

1. The party is clueless about him.

2. I don't even need a counter argument to prove the Iifa Tree theory false.

Oh 'the party?' Yes, what bastions of scholarship! I'm sure they know everything in the world. Them not knowing about Necron sure does prove no-one else did. 👆

You guys are all ****ing stupid.

Seriously, who the **** cares?

Shoosh Pap.

Originally posted by NemeBro
You guys are all ****ing stupid.

Seriously, who the **** cares?

Hmm. What?

I post got no attention. 🙁

Originally posted by Nephthys
"If u look carefully he actually is "vaguely" mentioned. He is mentioned as the thing that earth summoned a long time ago. It isn't just Ark they were afraid of and in Oveliert, The magic place as you recall. If you lok at the walls when u meet the big globe there is a picture of him. It is hard to see cause of quality but he is there. I am a man of incredible observation.... See it for yourself if you have time... And let me know if you see him."

Incorrect, Necron is not mentioned at all. In Oeilvert, there are visages that are connected to a wall and they just resemble Necron's face since they were developed by Terrans.

Originally posted by Nephthys
"Also the reason Necron came to beat all your asses is because if you actually read anything Kuja said in disc 3 you would understand Kuja said that the world wont exist without him meaning he would summon Necron to end the world. Necron also means death in Latin or Greek, something like that."

As Kuja9001 mentioned earlier, no one really knew about Necron's existence, except maybe Garland who is the one who built the Iifa Tree and its mechanisms to begin with. Neither no one had knowledge about the Hill Of Despair where Necron resides.

Originally posted by Nephthys
"castilogne knows what he's talking about. Everything else mentioned here is just speculation. Necron is the spiritual form of the Iifa Tree. Read up on what Garland says to Zidane about the soul cycle. He specifically mentions that Zidane only saw the "material form of the tree." Necron dies, the Iifa Tree dies. If Necron were irrelevant to the plot, the Iifa Tree exploding would have absolutely no purpose."

Exactly, that's why the party needed to die in order to encounter Necron. Spiritual means no physical world.

Originally posted by Nephthys
"To be honest, I always believed Necron to be the dark part of the Crystal. I mean, as he pretty much said, where there's life their's death. The Crystal grants life, so thus it grants death as well.

Necron's sole purpose was to end all life, thus he attempted to destroy the Crystal. So if he's supposed to be a part of it, that would be mean that he would be also destroying himself, which is more than ridiculous. He does not form part of the Crystal. He may be an antithesis of life, but he does not form part of it.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Oh man, look at all these other theories I found on youtube! So awesome!

Why do you insist in bringing up this discussion? This has nothing to do with Beatrix and Cloud in the slightest.

Originally posted by Enfathiel
No, you're not getting my argument. I'm going to oversimplfy It in this:

I'm assuming that Beatrix can't do the feats FFVII chracters have no because of the style of the old game, but the susbtance. They don't have any feats with th substance of VII's.

You're assuming the latter feats don't count because their feats alledgedly came from a style change. Which is untrue because in BC(before AC/C) had such people as The Legend, a turk below the power of a SOLDIER, easily dodging Tseng's bullets. And Tseng himself was keeping up with him.

And because the latter games - after the style change- don't posses as good a feats.

In XI, XII, XIII or XIIIV no low tier is casually dodging machine-gun bullets or bullet-timing.

The feats didn't come from a style change, they came from the ability to finally show them. Substance over style.

But as we can see, all the newer games, even with the so-called "style change" don't get the feats VII gets.

That just isn't true, though. As I pointed out, Cloud had to climb a metal pole in FF7. If he was suppose to be able to do Advent Children feats, he should have been able to run up it or even cut through the wall. That would not have been hard to animate at all. In fact, it would have been easier than animating a climb sequence.