Mace v Anakin

Started by Shoes12 pages
Shoes Senior Member

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Huh? I was saying how if Dooku's victories against opponents that were of (near)equal standing to him were done without using the Force, then he (and they, if they didn't either) are dumbasses. They have those powers, use 'em.

K

From what book, I'm curious?

He was a master of Form IV: Ataru, often having sparred with Mace Windu; it is said that neither actually managed to outduel the other.

Says EGC.

"Powerful you have become, Dooku. The Dark Side I sense in you."

Fair enough.

Lord Lucien Lets all love Lain

I really should have bought the Guides and Chronologies. I bought the LotR one, but not SW.

truejedi Senior Member

What page of the EGC?

Someone with that book recently said its not in there. You are simply using wiki, no?

Shoes Senior Member

I personally don't have EGC. Citation fail?

Galan007 |Quantum Observer|

Since it seems to be a hot topic, here are Qui-Gon's AND Mace's bios from The New Essential Guide to Characters:
http://img522.imageshack.us/i/quigon1.jpg/
http://img192.imageshack.us/i/quigon2.jpg/

http://img64.imageshack.us/i/mace1h.jpg/
http://img37.imageshack.us/i/mace2.jpg/

As you can see, neither bio mentions Qui-Gon being Mace's equal in any area.

Q99 Senior Member

Hm, ok, then where did I read it...? Agh, sorry for getting the reference wrong, I'll try and remember.

I'm going to cut down on making claims, at least until I can refresh my knowledge of the sources.

Ms.Marvel Don't wanna die...

man. galens got all the moves.

DrunknClockwork Member

Originally posted by Shoes
Reading that wasn't even worth the calorie I burned from moving my eyes across the screen.

You suck.

See how easy this is?

DARTH POWER Senior Member

Originally posted by Galan007
I don't think that line alone is enough to say Dooku was incontrovertibly Mace's equal... Especially when quotes like this also exist to counter it:

"Though Yoda's junior by hundreds of years, Mace Windu was considered his equal in terms of ability, insight, and command." - from the Jedi Sourcebook.

From that quote one could gather that Mace = Yoda > Dooku. Feel me?

Your not really suggesting Mace is Yoda's equal are you??

It says in terms of Ability, not Power. And Who says Yoda is above Dooku in ability?

Dooku was regarded "Most Learned in the ways of the Force" DR, and being The Master of the Ultimate duelling form, im not sure if anyone beats him in ability.. Apart from Sidious in Dark Side knowledge and Mastery.

Yoda is however considerably more Powerful than either Mace or Dooku, which is why he would defeat either of them. But they are 2 of the very very very few who can even put up a fight against the Grand Master of the Jedi Order.

Galan007 |Quantum Observer|
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Your not really suggesting Mace is Yoda's equal are you??
Posted earlier:
Originally posted by Galan007
And keep in mind that I am not trying to use the statement I posted as evidence. It was only a 'tool' used to demonstrate why your Dooku=Mace line of logic is flawed. A single line (and in your case, an inconclusive one at that) doesn't mean much.
ares834 Senior Member

But one must realize Dooku and Yoda have both been known to outspar Mace Windu.

Galan007 |Quantum Observer|

Pre-inventing-Vapaad? I could agree with that. Post-inventing-Vapaad? Nah.

DARTH POWER Senior Member

Yes but your point doesnt work, because the line you posted only talks about ability, which may be true. In terms of Saber Skills for instance Mace might even be superior to Yoda, but still wuldnt beat him in a lightsaber fight because Yoda himself is still a Ridiculously Skilled duellist + Faster & More Powerful than Mace.

However the quote Ares gave you was from the Narrator of a Book which is Considered Canon, and which was clearly talking about speed, power and skill overall in sabers. You shuldnt argue against Canon statements like that Unless it is conclusively proved that it is a false statement.

A better argument for you to not accpet that quote would be that this was during the Clone Wars and by ROTS Mace may have improved more than Dooku. However even if thats true Mace clearly was never "Miles" above Dooku in Saber Skills, and Iv not seen anything to make me think Mace is Dooku's superior in Force Mastery.

ares834 Senior Member

Originally posted by Galan007
Pre-inventing-Vapaad? I could agree with that. Post-inventing-Vapaad? Nah.

Prove that he invented Vaapad after he was bested by Yoda and Dooku.

Galan007 |Quantum Observer|

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yes but your point doesnt work, because the line you posted only talks about ability, which may be true. In terms of Saber Skills for instance Mace might even be superior to Yoda, but still wuldnt beat him in a lightsaber fight because Yoda himself is still a Ridiculously Skilled duellist + Faster & More Powerful than Mace.

However the quote Ares gave you was from the Narrator of a Book which is Considered Canon, and which was clearly talking about speed, power and skill overall in sabers. You shuldnt argue against Canon statements like that Unless it is conclusively proved that it is a false statement.

A better argument for you to not accpet that quote would be that this was during the Clone Wars and by ROTS Mace may have improved more than Dooku. However even if thats true Mace clearly was never "Miles" above Dooku in Saber Skills, and Iv not seen anything to make me think Mace is Dooku's superior in Force Mastery.

I never once argued against canonicity. However, the fact that the word "perhaps" is used in that quote, hardly makes it a conclusive/full-proof piece of evidence. To suggest otherwise is to completely disregard that fact, and to sink further and further into a wildly fallacious type of debating style.

Originally posted by ares834
Prove that he invented Vaapad after he was bested by Yoda and Dooku.
Dooku would've only sparred Windu before leaving the Jedi order.

Furthermore, I would like you to prove that Dooku/Yoda bested Mace while he was using Vapaad. Two can play this game.

🙂

ares834 Senior Member

When one read the quote the "perhaps" isn't sayng that Dooku may be Mace's equal. Rather it is saying that perhaps only Mace was his equal, meaning Mace=Dooku and perhaps no other jedi are their equal.

Regardless the quote in conjuction with Dooku outdueling Mace indicate that they are at least in a very similar level of skill.

Dooku would've only sparred Windu before leaving the Jedi order.

So he invented Vaapad after Dooku left the order? I doubt it. After all he taught it to Depa who was at the time of TPM a Jedi on the council
Furthermore, I would like you to prove that Dooku/Yoda bested Mace while he was using Vapaad. Two can play this game.

First there is no reason to suggest this. Its like saying prove that Anakin was using Djem So against Kenobi. Its his form and should be the form he is assumed to be using unless stated otherwise. Regardless you made the claim back it up.

Galan007 |Quantum Observer|

Originally posted by ares834
When one read the quote the "perhaps" isn't sayng that Dooku may be Mace's equal. Rather it is saying that perhaps only Mace was his equal, meaning Mace=Dooku and perhaps no other jedi are their equal.

Regardless the quote in conjuction with Dooku outdueling Mace indicate that they are at least in a very similar level of skill.

That is your interpretation, and you are welcome to it. I disagree, though.

Unless proof can be provided that Dooku bested Mace while he was employing Vapaad, then I will keep on thinking that their previous sparring matches occurred before Dooku left the Jedi order, thus occurring before Mace invented Vapaad.

Ms.Marvel Don't wanna die...

2 things.

1. where is it stated that dooku ever bested mace in lightsaber combat?

2. i dont think the "perhaps" there was only in regard to mace being the only jedi who was his equal.

Andrew Ryan One Who Chooses

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
2 things.

1. where is it stated that dooku ever bested mace in lightsaber combat?

2. i dont think the "perhaps" there was only in regard to mace being the only jedi who was his equal.

The Power of the Jedi sourcebook stated that Mace only ever lost to two jedi - Dooku and Yoda.

Andrew Ryan One Who Chooses

Originally posted by Galan007
That is your interpretation, and you are welcome to it. I disagree, though.

Unless proof can be provided that Dooku bested Mace while he was employing Vapaad, then I will keep on thinking that their previous sparring matches occurred before Dooku left the Jedi order, thus occurring before Mace invented Vapaad.

Sorry to double post, but I had to get this one.

Mace's former apprentice, a bona fide master of Vaapad, is a council member and master as of The Phantom Menace. I'd say it's a fair bet that Dooku bested Mace when the latter was utilizing Vaapad. That doesn't preclude Mace getting better, but it says a lot. Also, Dooku's style is ideal for saber to saber combat according to the original source, Fightsaber.

When Mace did confront Dooku in the Attack of the Clones novelization, he was cited as being the Shatterpoint to the whole war, but Mace himself, if I recall correctly, did not see a viable shatterpoint in Dooku's style. Rather, he noted that he was vulnerable with his attention focused on the field and his weapon away.

It's doubtful that Dooku would have a tremendous edge over Mace in Force combat, so I can only assume that the saber technique would be the deciding factor. Unless something surfaces where Mace finds Dooku's Shatterpoint before he is bested, even money rests on the Count.