Originally posted by Andrew Ryan
The Power of the Jedi sourcebook stated that Mace only ever lost to two jedi - Dooku and Yoda.
isnt that a bit ambiguous? dooku was 83 when he died. mace was 53. so there's a 30 year difference between them in age. so how do you know that the time that dooku beat mace wasnt when dooku was darn near a grown man and mace was a child?
why even bother using that quote. it doesnt substantiate anything at all.
Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
isnt that a bit ambiguous? dooku was 83 when he died. mace was 53. so there's a 30 year difference between them in age. so how do you know that the time that dooku beat mace wasnt when dooku was darn near a grown man and mace was a child?why even bother using that quote. it doesnt substantiate anything at all.
Mainly because you can only work with what you have, right? If you are asked to compare two mixed martial artists, and you know one has lost to the other at some point in his career but you know nothing else, it is entirely logical to assume he has the disadvantage. Anyone assuming the opposite bears the burden of proof, naturally.
thats not logical at all. if youre comapring two martial artists and all you know is that at one point one lost another at an unknown point in time with unknown circumstances, then you state that there's simply not enough data to make a sound judgement either way. arguing simply for the sake of arguing is dumb.
Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
isnt that a bit ambiguous? dooku was 83 when he died. mace was 53. so there's a 30 year difference between them in age. so how do you know that the time that dooku beat mace wasnt when dooku was darn near a grown man and mace was a child?why even bother using that quote. it doesnt substantiate anything at all.
Originally posted by DrunknClockwork
So when you say that Yoda and Dooku beat him while he was still a child, doesn't that mean that Mace has never lost to any other Jedi Master (like Qui-Gonn in his physical prime) even during this time? 😐
its possible.
there is a reason for why mace is pretty much the #2 best jedi in the orders entire history which consists of thousands of years and millions of members.
Originally posted by Andrew RyanAs far as I know, any/all of Depa's Vapaad-feats occur after AotC. Nothing I've seen suggests that she was a master of that form around the time of TPM.
Mace's former apprentice, a bona fide master of Vaapad, is a council member and master as of The Phantom Menace.I'd say it's a fair bet that Dooku bested Mace when the latter was utilizing Vaapad. That doesn't preclude Mace getting better, but it says a lot.
Also, Dooku's style is ideal for saber to saber combat according to the original source, Fightsaber.
IF Mace was in fact utilizing Vapaad when he sparred with Dooku (when he was a Jedi), it's safe to say that his 'adeptness' with said form was nowhere near what it would be years later when he battled Sidious. It's similiar to comparing Luke's technique in ESB, to his technique post-RotJ.
In the AotC novelization, it was stated that one of the main 'flaws' in form II is that it does not generate enough kinetic force to compete with some of the other forms that use more power/brute force. That said, I personally feel that a Vapaad master is superior to Makashi master for that reason alone.
Originally posted by truejediPage #112.
What page number?
"In the history of the Jedi order, only two opponents ever overcame [Mace] in battle. One was master Yoda, who some said was the order's true master of lightsaber combat. The other was former master Dooku, who's own style was archaic, but stunningly effective."
Because we don't have any sort of time line to go by, that statement is horribly ambiguous. At best.
Originally posted by Galan007Page #112.
"In the history of the Jedi order, only two opponents ever overcame [Mace]. One was master Yoda, who some said was the order's true master of lightsaber combat. The other was former master Dooku, who's own style was archaic, but stunningly effective."
Because we don't have any sort of time line to go by, that statement is horribly ambiguous. At best.
That quote doesn't make dooku on-par with Mace. It means he bested him ONCE in a sparring match.
Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
thats not logical at all. if youre comapring two martial artists and all you know is that at one point one lost another at an unknown point in time with unknown circumstances, then you state that there's simply not enough data to make a sound judgement either way. arguing simply for the sake of arguing is dumb.
I think you're missing what A.R. is saying. If the ONLY thing you have to go on is their head to head record, then assuming who the favorite and the underdog is, wouldn't be illogical.
Originally posted by Galan007
As far as I know, any/all of Depa's Vapaad-feats occur after AotC. Nothing I've seen suggests that she was a master of that form around the time of TPM.
Depa learned the style from Mace Windu as his apprentice. In Shatterpoint, she's explicitly stated as having used the form while being surrounded by war dogs with Mace Windu in a flashback. The fact that she's a master in her own right and established enough to be on the Council at the time of the claim that Qui-Gon is in Mace's league seems to confirm that Mace's form predates the Dooku battle. Furthermore, a direct scan proves this:
IF Mace was in fact utilizing Vapaad when he sparred with Dooku (when he was a Jedi), it's safe to say that his 'adeptness' with said form was nowhere near what it would be years later when he battled Sidious. It's similiar to comparing Luke's technique in ESB, to his technique post-RotJ.
The burden of proof is on anyone who attempts to prove a significant disparity between Mace as he dueled Dooku and Mace as he is much later. In any case, Mace's form was considered "mastered" before Depa left his care, which is before TPM. It is logical to assume that even if Mace's style has progressed, it has not achieved much beyond previously established mastery.
Since nothing can be directly substantiated and people insist on applying a vague value on Mace's progress from the time of his defeat until TPM (since they have no direct proof of how much Mace has changed, of course), you have two confirmed values - Mace was defeated while using his Vaapad against Dooku's Makashi, and both have had an equal amount of time to progress in skill, assuming they progressed much at all.
In the AotC novelization, it was stated that one of the main 'flaws' in form II is that it does not generate enough kinetic force to compete with some of the other forms that use more power/brute force. That said, I personally feel that a Vapaad master is superior to Makashi master for that reason alone.
1. I remember this from the Revenge of the Sith novelization, not the Attack of the Clones one.
2. Lack of brute strength does not immediately translate into victory. This should be glaringly obvious. Mace's brute strength and Force strength has not necessarily waned since he dueled Dooku, yet Dooku's razor precision defeated him.
Good job with the scan.
And thanks for the quote.
Now this though.
Good job with the page number! now. If that is the quote, its pretty obvious it was a sparring match. So maybe Dooku won ONE out of a HUNDRED.That quote doesn't make dooku on-par with Mace. It means he bested him ONCE in a sparring match.
Originally posted by truejedi
Good job with the scan.And thanks for the quote.
Now this though.
Actually, it says zero about the nature of the battle. But since you're arguing from ignorance, perhaps you can logically explain to me how Mace's only verified battle against Dooku which resulted in a loss somehow translates into a victory because of the passage of time?
That quote doesn't make dooku on-par with Mace. It means he bested him ONCE in a sparring match. [/B][/QUOTE]
Originally posted by truejedi
Good job with the page number! now. If that is the quote, its pretty obvious it was a sparring match. So maybe Dooku won ONE out of a HUNDRED.That quote doesn't make dooku on-par with Mace. It means he bested him ONCE in a sparring match.
cheers
Originally posted by Andrew Ryan
Actually, it says zero about the nature of the battle. But since you're arguing from ignorance, perhaps you can logically explain to me how Mace's only verified battle against Dooku which resulted in a loss somehow translates into a victory because of the passage of time?
What? I am saying considering all it says is that Dooku bested Mace once, this doesn't mean that Dooku is better or even on par with Mace. You would need a more definitive quote to establish that.
Originally posted by truejedi
What? I am saying considering all it says is that Dooku bested Mace once, this doesn't mean that Dooku is better or even on par with Mace. You would need a more definitive quote to establish that.
But the whole point is we don't have a definitive quote. Here's the situation: The only evidence we have to go on is a single passage. The reference to Mace's distinctive loss against Dooku who's style was "stunningly effective" is important because it indirectly states two things - that Mace's victory was not close, epic, or otherwise conditional, and that Dooku's style was superb while Mace's style in comparison is "unusual" and "aggressive". Nowhere does it say that Vaapad, Mace's established fighting style, is inherently superior to Dooku's Form II.
Was that claim being made? There is no superior lightsaber form. It is how good you are at your chosen form that matters. Mace Windu himself says that in the ROTS novelization. I thought we were discussing who was a better swordsman, and when it comes to that,Mace, by virtue of his victory over sidious > Dooku.
Originally posted by truejedi
What? I am saying considering all it says is that Dooku bested Mace once,
It means that WE KNOW Dooku has outduelled Mace in the past, however we know of no instances where Mace outduelled Dooku, so going from factual information on the subject its at least 1-0 to Dooku.
It also shows that since Yoda and Dooku were the only ones capable of outsparring Mace that they were probably the 2 best swordsmen in the Jedi order(not including mace).
QUOTE=12684548]Originally posted by truejedi
this doesn't mean that Dooku is better or even on par with Mace. [/QUOTE]
So Dooku outduelling Mace doesnt even make Dooku on par with Mace??
Nice logic.