Comic Book Martial Artist Hierarchy

Originally posted by dmills
Can someone please explain why she should? I love her, but I just don't see it.

Now if you can tell me with a straight face that 83.4% mastery of the universe's armed/unarmed techniques is crap, because with 3.5x Spiderman strength she should be nerve-striking a Celestial, than I'll understand your apprehension. Otherwise, I fail to see how that fact alone -- separate and apart from her using nerve-strikes in 30% of her battles and one-shotting her opponents in 25% of her battles -- fails to qualify as a step above anybody in that uber tier.

Face it. She'd nerve-strike Thor. I don't think anybody's made an argument against that. So why does Mantis get cosmic tier and Gamora doesn't? Because despite her mastery of 83.4% of the universe's martial arts, Gamora has 3.5x Spidey strength? That's justification to bring her down to Stick's level? So what if somebody had mastery of 90% of the universe's martial arts and had 7x Spidey strength and nerve-striked Thor? They'd be even lower around Daredevil's level?

There's a level of disjunction here that eludes me here where we can measure levels of skill by how many times stronger they are than Spiderman.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
😬I'd like to propose a happy medium between 60 and 66%. And that would be 63%. Not quite 2/3 ratio, but at least more than simply majority.

A minimum of a three-vote majority provides a reasonable barrier to change that allows more input, imo, than a pure percentage based system.

A three vote majority generally conforms to >=63% for most votes though anyway, since the following is needed (% to the nearest whole number):
3/0 => 3/3 = 100%
4/1 => 4/5 = 80%
5/2 => 5/7 = 71%
6/3 => 6/9 = 66%
7/4 => 7/11 = 64%

At 13 total votes the percentage does dip below though.
8/5 => 8/13 = 62%
9/6 => 9/15 = 60%

I suppose the total vote threshold for increasing the majority required could be 12 i.e. beyond 12 total votes the requirement would be.

8/4 => 8/12 = 66%
9/5 => 9/14 = 64%
10/6 => 10/16 = 63%

At 17 votes this would increase to a 5-vote majority threshold.
11/6 => 11/17 = 65%
12/7 => 12/19 = 63%

After which point a 6 vote majority would be needed, and so on. Although I don't know the likelihood of votes getting that high, (Gamora seems more an exception than a norm).

It's feasible, but it's a tad more complicated.

I suppose it's about finding a balance between ensuring a reasonable barrier to change, while also not making it so prohibitively difficult to get a change passed that it favors the status quo too much and/or leaves a proposal hanging in limbo in the list.

Would people be satisfied with what I've outlined above?
Total Votes | Majority Needed
3-11 | 3-vote majority
12-16 | 4-vote majority
17-19 | 5-vote majority

^ 👆

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Query this: what should a martial artist with 83.4% mastery of the universe's martial arts be doing with 3.5x Spiderman strength? One-shotting Abstracts? Or one-shotting everyone she matches in a fight, short of Thanos and Maxam... especially when she has less than two dozen on-panel fights under her belt?

Now if you can tell me with a straight face that 83.4% mastery of the universe's armed/unarmed techniques is crap, because with 3.5x Spiderman strength she should be nerve-striking a Celestial, than I'll understand your apprehension. Otherwise, I fail to see how that fact alone -- separate and apart from her using nerve-strikes in 30% of her battles and one-shotting her opponents in 25% of her battles -- fails to qualify as a step above anybody in that uber tier.

Face it. She'd nerve-strike Thor. I don't think anybody's made an argument against that. So why does Mantis get cosmic tier and Gamora doesn't? Because despite her mastery of 83.4% of the universe's martial arts, Gamora has 3.5x Spidey strength? That's justification to bring her down to Stick's level? So what if somebody had mastery of 90% of the universe's martial arts and had 7x Spidey strength and nerve-striked Thor? They'd be even lower around Daredevil's level?

There's a level of disjunction here that eludes me here where we can measure levels of skill by how many times stronger they are than Spiderman.

Well if she has super-strengh it makes it easier for her right?

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
The point is Superman isn't a renowed MA. PERIOD. He's good at what he does and good in h2h combat as mostly a brawler. It's effective and works well with his powerset. The fact is.. he gets the majority of his wins NOT via MA SKILL but because he's much stronger and faster than the foe he's facing. That isn't impressive MA skill in the least, which is what this thread is about.

those aren't "facts" at all.

in general:

i really wish people who don't know these characters that well would just leave well enough alone. you don't see me judging taskmaster or gamora, do you? no. so unless you've actually read the couple of hundred or so superman issues (or major arcs) required to even get a decent knowledge of the character, then tbh you have no business making a judgement either way. if you did read them and still doubt him, fair enough.

why does superman brawl more than he uses martial arts? its simple, and its the exact same reason cyclops doesnt use MA much even though we know he can:

YouTube video

the term is "bringing a gun to a knife fight".

Originally posted by -Pr-
those aren't "facts" at all.

in general:

i really wish people who don't know these characters that well would just leave well enough alone. you don't see me judging taskmaster or gamora, do you? no. so unless you've actually read the couple of hundred or so superman issues (or major arcs) required to even get a decent knowledge of the character, then tbh you have no business making a judgement either way. if you did read them and still doubt him, fair enough.

The thing is people have asked for feats and nothings come so you can see why people are skeptical.. Haven't read as many as you but I've read alot of comics with superman in it and seen no martials arts. I actually do know he learn't to meditate and had some training by Tibetan monks....not sure if it was martial arts though.

Originally posted by -Pr-

why does superman brawl more than he uses martial arts? its simple, and its the exact same reason cyclops doesnt use MA much even though we know he can:

YouTube video

the term is "bringing a gun to a knife fight".

That analogy doesn't work at all. Cyclops and that guy are attacking somebody from long range because its easier its not the same as getting into a fight with somebody in close quarters.

Originally posted by Deadline
The thing is people have asked for feats and nothings come so you can see why people are skeptical.. Haven't read as many as you but I've read alot of comics with superman in it and seen no martials arts. I actually do know he learn't to meditate and had some training by Tibetan monks....not sure if it was martial arts though.

so i'm supposed to dig through my comics to find scans just because other people can't be bothered to do the research?

That analogy doesn't work at all. Cyclops and that guy are attacking somebody from long range because its easier its not the same as getting into a fight with somebody in close quarters.

the analogy is actually an accurate one, when you're strong enough to punch someone's head off in one go. that, and heat vision.

Originally posted by -Pr-
so i'm supposed to dig through my comics to find scans just because other people can't be bothered to do the research?

If you're claming hes all that then its up to you really.

Originally posted by -Pr-

the analogy is actually an accurate one, when you're strong enough to punch someone's head off in one go. that, and heat vision.

No its isn't. What about all the fights hes had with people who he can't punch their heads off and hasn't used MA. 😬

Originally posted by Deadline
If you're claming hes all that then its up to you really.

No its isn't. What about all the fights hes had with people who he can't punch their heads off and hasn't used MA. 😬

but i've read the comics. some of the statements here make it more than obvious that these people haven't. all they have to do is take a few minutes out of their day to visit the respect thread, but even that seems to be beyond them.

just because you didn't get the point of the analogy doesn't invalidate it.

Originally posted by Deadline
The thing is people have asked for feats and nothings come so you can see why people are skeptical.

I've posted showings of skill that are more impressive than the ones you'll find from the likes of Loki, Dr. Doom, Kalibak, Orion, Beta Ray Bill, Lobo, Thor, Aquaman, etc. (all third tier guys), but yet somehow those aren't good enough because we're dealing with Superman.

All I can do is sit back and laugh.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Query this: what should a martial artist with 83.4% mastery of the universe's martial arts be doing with 3.5x Spiderman strength? One-shotting Abstracts? Or one-shotting everyone she matches in a fight, short of Thanos and Maxam... especially when she has less than two dozen on-panel fights under her belt?

Now if you can tell me with a straight face that 83.4% mastery of the universe's armed/unarmed techniques is crap, because with 3.5x Spiderman strength she should be nerve-striking a Celestial, than I'll understand your apprehension. Otherwise, I fail to see how that fact alone -- separate and apart from her using nerve-strikes in 30% of her battles and one-shotting her opponents in 25% of her battles -- fails to qualify as a step above anybody in that uber tier.

Face it. She'd nerve-strike Thor. I don't think anybody's made an argument against that. So why does Mantis get cosmic tier and Gamora doesn't? Because despite her mastery of 83.4% of the universe's martial arts, Gamora has 3.5x Spidey strength? That's justification to bring her down to Stick's level? So what if somebody had mastery of 90% of the universe's martial arts and had 7x Spidey strength and nerve-striked Thor? They'd be even lower around Daredevil's level?

There's a level of disjunction here that eludes me here where we can measure levels of skill by how many times stronger they are than Spiderman.

Hyperbole is hyperbole. Even if it comes from Worldmind. But let's say I grant you the the 83%, I just can't get past the fact that she has artificial bio enhancements that give her a significant advantage over her opponents i.e. Durability, healing factor, strength, speed etc. I've been against Midnighter moving up for similar reason's so I'm not going to start now.

If I can see just one shred of evidence that she is as effective without her enhancements as she is with, then sure, keep her "Cosmic". As it stands the only things iirc that she has done that other ubers probably couldn't replicate involved her using her enhanced features, i.e. speed, strength, durability and healing factor. Nothing skill wise.

But if you can show some panels with her doing these things I'm willing to retract my previous vote and allow her to remain cosmic.

I think Gamora is definitely on top of the Uber Tier but Cosmic Tier should be something that can only be reached by being essentially a MA God like Karate Kid, someone who *just* using skill can defeat High Heralds and the like.

I didn't know Gambit was moved to third. Although I have no qualms with him moving, I'm surprised at the lack of opposition.

Some of these are moot, but here is my position anyway.

I support Tim Drake to 2nd and Superman to 3rd.

I am against Punisher and Thor to second. I'm just not sold on those ideas at this point.

The 2nd and 3rd tiers appear to encompass a wider range of people than originally intended. I always imagined exclusivity would increase with each tier and the 4th tier would have the largest amount of people. It's starting to look like the 3rd tier is the "new" 4th tier. Short of a massive revamp, it'll probably stay that way though.

^^^I agree. I've been too busy looking at who's being nominated for top tier to really take a look at the lower tiers. But some of these nominations are getting out of control.

Against Savant to second.
For Catman to second.
Against Midnighter to second.
Against Drakon to uber.
For Oracle to third.
Against Thor to second.
Against Back Panther's nomination.
For Psylocke's nomination.
Against Sabertooth's nomination.
Against Mr. X's nomination.

Originally posted by dmills
Hyperbole is hyperbole. Even if it comes from Worldmind. But let's say I grant you the the 83%, I just can't get past the fact that she has artificial bio enhancements that give her a significant advantage over her opponents i.e. Durability, healing factor, strength, speed etc. I've been against Midnighter moving up for similar reason's so I'm not going to start now.

Originally posted by dmills
If I can see just one shred of evidence that she is as effective without her enhancements as she is with, then sure, keep her "Cosmic". As it stands the only things iirc that she has done that other ubers probably couldn't replicate involved her using her enhanced features, i.e. speed, strength, durability and healing factor. Nothing skill wise.

Originally posted by dmills
But if you can show some panels with her doing these things I'm willing to retract my previous vote and allow her to remain cosmic.

I'd like to vote Nick Fury down to tier 3.

Not impressed by the pressure point stat since her appearances are relatively small in number compared to other upper tier MA'ers. I like the oneshot stat though. How'd you come to that?

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Query this: what should a martial artist with 83.4% mastery of the universe's martial arts be doing with 3.5x Spiderman strength? One-shotting Abstracts? Or one-shotting everyone she matches in a fight, short of Thanos and Maxam... especially when she has less than two dozen on-panel fights under her belt?

Now if you can tell me with a straight face that 83.4% mastery of the universe's armed/unarmed techniques is crap, because with 3.5x Spiderman strength she should be nerve-striking a Celestial, than I'll understand your apprehension. Otherwise, I fail to see how that fact alone -- separate and apart from her using nerve-strikes in 30% of her battles and one-shotting her opponents in 25% of her battles -- fails to qualify as a step above anybody in that uber tier.

Face it. She'd nerve-strike Thor. I don't think anybody's made an argument against that. So why does Mantis get cosmic tier and Gamora doesn't? Because despite her mastery of 83.4% of the universe's martial arts, Gamora has 3.5x Spidey strength? That's justification to bring her down to Stick's level? So what if somebody had mastery of 90% of the universe's martial arts and had 7x Spidey strength and nerve-striked Thor? They'd be even lower around Daredevil's level?

There's a level of disjunction here that eludes me here where we can measure levels of skill by how many times stronger they are than Spiderman.

First of all 83.4% mastery of the universe's martial arts is a statement in a bio at the end of a comic, not a on panel description of her skill. Second it is 83.4% of all space fairing cultures, which wouldn't even included Marvel Earth BTW, not "every martial art in the universe," as you keep saying. Third, it is just a meaningless sentence until she does something to back it up. Feats are what matters here, and she doesn't have the feats to support her placement.

Mantis gets cosmic tier because she did nerve strike Thor, she did own Cap, and she did beat Midnight Sun (who was equal to Shang-Chi in skill before his cosmic upgrade); not because she might do those things if give then opportunity. Maybe you are right, maybe she might do those things if given the chance, but we aren't here to speculate on what Gamora might do. Until she does it, she shouldn't have that position because of a "benefit of the doubt," placement.

Originally posted by Battlehammer
gamora down a tier

I think this vote got missed in the shuffle btw.

😈