Comic Book Martial Artist Hierarchy

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
He stalemated Cap in a spar during Civil War, Cap said it wouldn't happen in a real fight.

Daredevil was holding back because the more he damaged Black Panther the more the mind control was taking over. Also BP > DD physically.

Iron Fist was mind controlled.

He managed to intercept and toss Wolverine away. Wolverine did the same thing to the Mandarin, should we move him up to Ubre?

how can we go by captain america said? this was shortly before he lead the assault on the negative zone, not only that captain america was armd with his shield while BP was unarmed, his father defeated captain america, and T'Challa is better than his father (believe it has been stated or suggested)

T'Challa was being mindcontrolled and was fighting it the whole time, not only that in earlier issues the narrator states how even they are

yes ironfist was mindcontrolled but he was just as dangerous, and BP was holding back the whole time trying to put him to sleep.

i said outmaneuvered wolverine, which he did, which is a feat in it self.

i could go on,easily taking out karnak of the inhumans twice, one-shotting hawkeye, his body guards took out black widow in hand to hand and t'challa bests all of them easily, he took out thing in a boxing match, etc.

the list goes on and on, he's definitely more qualified than psylocke or taskmaster

Originally posted by AlmightyKfish
Taskmaster has also stalemated or beaten a number of the Marvel characters in top tier, and that's whilst being physically inferior to the majority of them.

Not really sure why BP would deserve it any more than him.

curious, who has taskmaster beaten in the top tier?

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
I'd disagree that Black Panther would "own" everyone in second tier in pure skill, considering one of them, like, killed Batgirl. One of them spars with people like Shiva.

And if Canary does get moved down, in pure skill, I'd disagree that he'd "own" her.

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Also I'm wondering if the votes for top tier should be restricted to one vote per poster. dmills would you be okay with me removing your votes for now since you're undecided. And srank, I'm assuming you're backing Psylocke rather than Mr X.

T'Challa has insane hand-to-hand feats and has proved himself over and over again as being on of marvels best fighters and best thinkers, it's annoying when people try to ignore that.

Originally posted by Trackz
how can we go by captain america said? this was shortly before he lead the assault on the negative zone, not only that captain america was armd with his shield while BP was unarmed, his father defeated captain america, and T'Challa is better than his father (believe it has been stated or suggested)

T'Challa was being mindcontrolled and was fighting it the whole time, not only that in earlier issues the narrator states how even they are

yes ironfist was mindcontrolled but he was just as dangerous, and BP was holding back the whole time trying to put him to sleep.

i said outmaneuvered wolverine, which he did, which is a feat in it self.

i could go on,easily taking out karnak of the inhumans twice, one-shotting hawkeye, his body guards took out black widow in hand to hand and t'challa bests all of them easily, he took out thing in a boxing match, etc.

the list goes on and on, he's definitely more qualified than psylocke or taskmaster

Yeah but Cap circa WW2 isn't the same Cap as he is today by a longshot. Wolverine had to save his life from half a dozen hand ninjas in the era. Its kinda like bringing up that Batman got shot by some police officers in Year One, it really isn't all that relevant. And Cap may have had his shield by Panther was wearing the vibranium micro-weave that contained his light-armor, so its not a big deal.

Yes T'Challa was fighting the mind control, and because of that Daredevil had to hold back himself even more. The more he damaged T'Challa the more the mind control took over, it was stated in the issue. T'Challa is physically superior to Daredevil, so if the two are consistently fighting on even ground (and they are, the mind control instance isn't their only throw down) than the logical conclusion is that Daredevil has a skill advantage that evens the playing field.

Mind controlled heroes are never "just as dangerous," they are always pale reflections of their true selves. Batman has punked a mind controlled Shiva easily. Wolverine is destroyed a mind controlled Psylocke in seconds while fighting Lady Deathstroke at the same time. Obviously, you'd like to pretend that in this one isolated instance Iron Fist was still close enough his normal levels that BP beating him matters... but it doesn't.

It's a feat, just not much of one. Like I said, Wolverine did the same thing to Mandarin.

He's close, but he isn't quite top tier material.

Originally posted by Trackz
mainly cause of her powers..what type of skill has she really demonstrated?

'Because of her powers'? They have the same power, you realize, no edge there 🙂 X fought by making precise jugular and artery hits.

In training they often had her run through the exact (exact-exact) scenarios Wolverine did in his Weapon-X training, and in some cases did so in better time. Her training was meant to give her a duplicate copy of Logan's skills at the time, and only later in training did her style branch off.

In terms of fighting groups of trained enemies of a variety of sorts, she does extremely well.

But Talon really hasn't gone head to head with many other martial artists she didn't totally outclass.

Originally posted by Q99
'Because of her powers'? They have the same power, you realize, no edge there 🙂 X fought by making precise jugular and artery hits.

In training they often had her run through the exact (exact-exact) scenarios Wolverine did in his Weapon-X training, and in some cases did so in better time. Her training was meant to give her a duplicate copy of Logan's skills at the time, and only later in training did her style branch off.

In terms of fighting groups of trained enemies of a variety of sorts, she does extremely well.

But Talon really hasn't gone head to head with many other martial artists she didn't totally outclass.

That isn't exactly true.

X-23 out preformed Wolverine's time because he had to hunt down the bear and kill it (which he did in one shot), while they just let the bear lose on Laura.

It took Wolverine 4 minutes and 21 seconds to track and kill the bear. When he found it he killed the bear before they could say "Four minutes twenty-one seconds." So the actual killing of the bear took him mere seconds. It took Laura 57 seconds to kill the bear they just let lose on her. Logan killed the bear instantly, Laura got stomped on for 57 seconds got him with her foot claw. In reality Wolverine vastly over preformed Laura's numbers. Plus according to Wolverine himself he is stronger, faster and a better fighter than Laura.

Originally posted by Q99
'Because of her powers'? They have the same power, you realize, no edge there 🙂 X fought by making precise jugular and artery hits.

In training they often had her run through the exact (exact-exact) scenarios Wolverine did in his Weapon-X training, and in some cases did so in better time. Her training was meant to give her a duplicate copy of Logan's skills at the time, and only later in training did her style branch off.

In terms of fighting groups of trained enemies of a variety of sorts, she does extremely well.

But Talon really hasn't gone head to head with many other martial artists she didn't totally outclass.

does x-23 go by talon? I remember her smiling after hearing talon at the end of her series, but i haven't seen anyone call her it

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Yeah but Cap circa WW2 isn't the same Cap as he is today by a longshot. Wolverine had to save his life from half a dozen hand ninjas in the era. Its kinda like bringing up that Batman got shot by some police officers in Year One, it really isn't all that relevant. And Cap may have had his shield by Panther was wearing the vibranium micro-weave that contained his light-armor, so its not a big deal.

Yes T'Challa was fighting the mind control, and because of that Daredevil had to hold back himself even more. The more he damaged T'Challa the more the mind control took over, it was stated in the issue. T'Challa is physically superior to Daredevil, so if the two are consistently fighting on even ground (and they are, the mind control instance isn't their only throw down) than the logical conclusion is that Daredevil has a skill advantage that evens the playing field.

Mind controlled heroes are never "just as dangerous," they are always pale reflections of their true selves. Batman has punked a mind controlled Shiva easily. Wolverine is destroyed a mind controlled Psylocke in seconds while fighting Lady Deathstroke at the same time. Obviously, you'd like to pretend that in this one isolated instance Iron Fist was still close enough his normal levels that BP beating him matters... but it doesn't.

It's a feat, just not much of one. Like I said, Wolverine did the same thing to Mandarin.

He's close, but he isn't quite top tier material.

The thing is both BP and DD were holding back, and were stalemating, DD had to hold back no more than black panther did, they were both pulling punches, essentially it was liek a sparring match, and Cap, Wolverine, Ironfist, and others have physical advantages over their opponents, that doesn't mean they are any less skilled, the fact is they never fought full-out, when they were both holding back they stalemated, the fact that marvel consistently has put BP against their best H2H characters and had him hold his own is an indication that he is one of the best in terms of H2H.

stalemating and beating marvel's best hand-to-hand fighters with only hand-to-hand shows that he is top-tier material, you don't have to agree.

Originally posted by Trackz
i'm talking in general, she does so because of her healing factor and unbreakable claws, not necessarily because of her martial arts prowess. She may be a top tier martial artist, i don't think there's proof of it, i may be wrong though.

She's incredibly acrobatic and skilled, most fights she doesn't get hit. And sure, her claws are good, but she'd do about as good with knives and boot-blades.

Being raised in a bunker to be the perfect assassin/fighter, she fights like a machine, every move calculated and done perfectly calmly.

I remember one other good showing that, while it used her healing factor, also showed off her skill. She beat Lady Deathstrike by calmly observing until she could figure out her weak points, then disabling one of her limbs with a good kick, and gave her mortal wounds (though Spiral saved her).

does x-23 go by talon? I remember her smiling after hearing talon at the end of her series, but i haven't seen anyone call her it

It's her New X-men code name that no-one uses and most people forget exists 🙂 Laura Kinney, X-23, Talon.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin

That isn't exactly true.

X-23 out preformed Wolverine's time because he had to hunt down the bear and kill it (which he did in one shot), while they just let the bear lose on Laura.

They only timed the combat portion against the cybernetic bears I figure, and for awhile she was matching up his time perfectly according to the observes. They had a holo overlay of what he did in the test, even.

Plus according to Wolverine himself he is stronger, faster and a better fighter than Laura.

Where'd he stay that? I don't remember them ever comparing each other, though I'd figure Wolverine's stronger, Laura's faster (though, without a doubt more agile), and when fighting they did pretty close.

Originally posted by Q99
They only timed the combat portion against the cybernetic bears I figure, and for awhile she was matching up his time perfectly according to the observes. They had a holo overlay of what he did in the test, even.

Where'd he stay that? I don't remember them ever comparing each other, though I'd figure Wolverine's stronger, Laura's faster (though, without a doubt more agile), and when fighting they did pretty close.

They only timed Wolverine's portion against the bear as well. The wolves where a completely different test that happened on separate occasions. Like I said, Wolverine had to hunt down and kill the bear. Laura just had to kill it. It took her 57 seconds to kill the bear, it took Wolverine 4 minutes and 21 seconds to hunt the bear down but only seconds to kill it. Laura only "beat" Wolverine's time because the test was different. Logan was far superior in his showing.

Uncanny X-Men. Logan says "You're quite good. But darlin' you're no where near my league," and "You're fast. I'm faster."

It took her 57 seconds to kill the bear, it took Wolverine 4 minutes and 21 seconds to hunt the bear down but only seconds to kill it. Laura only "beat" Wolverine's time because the test was different. Logan was far superior in his showing.

She was matching a hologram of Wolverine move for move, literally standing within the hologram. Slight retcon or different test; either way, she was doing what Wolverine did according to the comic itself up to the point she got hit then recovered.

The wolves were including in the time, so maybe it was "just the fight potions of the WX tests spliced together."

Uncanny X-Men. Logan says "You're quite good. But darlin' you're no where near my league," and "You're fast. I'm faster."

Oh, yuk. Isn't that the one where she was acting all 'grr' and entirely out of character?

That was done, pretty much, before the actual creators had done enough with the character for the writer of UXM to know what she was like or their relationship (likewise, Marvel Team-up had the same issue, with some comments to the end that just didn't make sense when they tried to adjust her to her main characterization). It's contradicted by pretty much all of her other appearances in a lot of ways, and was published before her fight that demonstrated otherwise.

Originally posted by Trackz
moon knight scared him off and deadpool owned him on occasion, recently he hasn't been showing that type of skill lately,

curious, who has taskmaster beaten in the top tier?

Moon Knight crashed a freaking plane into him.
And Deadpool would have died in every single one of their fights if not for his healing factor.

Neither of those constitute skill really =/

And he's beaten The Cat and Elektra

Every single fight he's had with Captain America he's had the advantage (two of those fights were Tasky vs Cap and another opponent)

And he's toyed with Daredevil before.

I'd also point out he's beaten Spiderman before, humiliated Black Widow, and has repeatedly owned Iron Man during their encounters.

Originally posted by AlmightyKfish
Moon Knight crashed a freaking plane into him.
And Deadpool would have died in every single one of their fights if not for his healing factor.

Neither of those constitute skill really =/

And he's beaten The Cat and Elektra

Every single fight he's had with Captain America he's had the advantage (two of those fights were Tasky vs Cap and another opponent)

And he's toyed with Daredevil before.

I'd also point out he's beaten Spiderman before, humiliated Black Widow, and has repeatedly owned Iron Man during their encounters.

Can't argue with that resume.

Originally posted by AlmightyKfish
And he's beaten The Cat and Elektra

Not like he beat Elektra by skill. Pretending to be her ex lover in combat makes for an off Elektra. Until their next encounter, which I'm sure you don't want me to post.

Originally posted by Konton
Not like he beat Elektra by skill. Pretending to be her ex lover in combat makes for an off Elektra. Until their next encounter, which I'm sure you don't want me to post.

I'm pretty sure exactly replicating Daredevil's style with your eyes closed is still skill.

Sure Elekta was shown as being more skilled, but still, one mistake from her meant that he was able to have her at his mercy.

And in their later fight, it was clear that Tasky made the mistake of fighting like DD again, and she stomped him.

+ We don't know how their fight would go nowadays, as since then Taskmaster has become fast enough to match her speed wise. Whereas in their initial fight it was made clear Elektra was faster than him (which we know anyway, as her past showings have made it clear she's beyond human at times)

What has he done to back your claim that they are comparable in speed now?

Originally posted by Konton
What has he done to back your claim that they are comparable in speed now?

Ever since his mini he's been able to double his speed for a short period of time, for instance, after being shot through the side of his upper body, he was able to blitz and kill a man fast enough to catch bullets fired from a few feet away with his bare hands.

He basically accelerates his body to work twice as fast as it should be able to.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot

Those in the top tier (and above) are meant to be the [b]best of the best.

If a character can't garner sufficient support to indicate they are better, however marginally better, than another top tier (assuming a full tier) then they aren't quite the creme de la creme.

They may be best of the rest, but by a hairsbreadth not quite one of the best of the best.

A hierarchy, like life, isn't necessarily meant to be "fair" like a commune. A competitive structure maintains quality.
[/B]

The problem is the top tier isn't actually top tier there is uber and cosmic above it. Its simply a ranking and if you deserve to be there then you should be placed there. For the sake of argument if alot of characters happened to be gods and we wanted them to be put into a category putting characters in demi-god category would not reflect the reality.

Putting somebody whos top tier in second tier just because there are too many people in top tier doesn't reflect the 'reality'.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot

If there's some outpouring of sentiment to uncap the top tier and let it balloon out until it has no meaning anymore then, sure, let's look into it. But as it stands, I haven't seen a mass mob taking much issue to it.

Well I think theres two reasons im not too sure if everybody knows theres a cap and also there is self-interest. If the cap was stopping more people from getting characters in a rank which they wanted then there would be more scrutiny. I don't know maybe bring it up with the rest and maybe they will disagree with the principle.

Originally posted by Omega Vision

Against:
Punisher to Second

Why?

Originally posted by AlmightyKfish
Ever since his mini he's been able to double his speed for a short period of time, for instance, after being shot through the side of his upper body, he was able to blitz and kill a man fast enough to catch bullets fired from a few feet away with his bare hands.

He basically accelerates his body to work twice as fast as it should be able to.

And by a man, you mean some cannon fodder?

Originally posted by Konton
And by a man, you mean some cannon fodder?

He was one of the main antogonists of the miniseries, and he caught a bullet right before Tasky blitzed him, but take from it what you will.