Comic Book Martial Artist Hierarchy

Originally posted by AlmightyKfish
Ever since his mini he's been able to double his speed for a short period of time, for instance, after being shot through the side of his upper body, he was able to blitz and kill a man fast enough to catch bullets fired from a few feet away with his bare hands.

He basically accelerates his body to work twice as fast as it should be able to.

Whoa,whoa, whoa. He only did that in his mini...I haven't seen him do that anywhere else.

Originally posted by AlmightyKfish
He was one of the main antogonists of the miniseries, and he caught a bullet right before Tasky blitzed him, but take from it what you will.

That fight scene was hardcore by the way. Loved it, better ending than Siege.

Originally posted by Deadline
Whoa,whoa, whoa. He only did that in his mini...I haven't seen him do that anywhere else.

That fight scene was hardcore by the way. Loved it, better ending than Siege.

Well, he did it in his mini, but the fact is he is able to do it.

I mean, it was made fairly clear that it's very simple for him to accomplish.

Most of what you wrote I already replied to in the very post you quoted.

Originally posted by Deadline
The problem is the top tier isn't actually top tier there is uber and cosmic above it

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
While the ultimate and penultimate tiers are not formerly limited, they have remained self-limiting, something one should be entirely unconvinced would occur with the top tier, by virtue of characters entering those tiers needing to bypass the limited top tier. If the Uber and Cosmic tiers weren't functioning in such a way then they would also be subject to limited spacing.

Originally posted by Deadline
Its simply a ranking and if you deserve to be there then you should be placed there.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
If a character is truly good enough i.e. deserves to be there, then they should be able to gain sufficient support to be there, displacing someone else. If a character can't garner sufficient support to indicate they are better, however marginally better, than another top tier (assuming a full tier) then they aren't quite the creme de la creme.

They may be best of the rest, but by a hairsbreadth not quite one of the best of the best.

Originally posted by Deadline
For the sake of argument if alot of characters happened to be gods and we wanted them to be put into a category putting characters in demi-god category would not reflect the reality.

Originally posted by Deadline
Putting somebody whos top tier in second tier just because there are too many people in top tier doesn't reflect the 'reality'.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
If a character is truly good enough i.e. deserves to be there, then they should be able to gain sufficient support to be there, displacing someone else. If a character can't garner sufficient support to indicate they are better, however marginally better, than another top tier (assuming a full tier) then they aren't quite the creme de la creme.

They may be best of the rest, but by a hairsbreadth not quite one of the best of the best.

Originally posted by Deadline
Well I think theres two reasons im not too sure if everybody knows theres a cap

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
There are currently 18 Top Tier slots divided as follows: Marvel (8), DC (8), Independent/Other (2).

Originally posted by Deadline
and also there is self-interest.

Originally posted by Deadline
If the cap was stopping more people from getting characters in a rank which they wanted then there would be more scrutiny. I don't know maybe bring it up with the rest and maybe they will disagree with the principle.

Presumably since neither your post nor my post has elicited any particular response about the tier cap there isn't much of a response.

------

But I'll pose the question to the denizens of the thread here then:
Is there any sentiment to uncap the top tier and let it balloon out until it has no meaning anymore? Or should it maintain it's exclusive and elite nature.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Uncanny X-Men. Logan says "You're quite good. But darlin' you're no where near my league," and "You're fast. I'm faster."

Well we can go over their relationship if you would like.

They fought in her second mini, Target. He was reluctant to retaliate, but she still outsmarted him and showed that she was very much capable of killing him. She outmaneuvered all of his defenses, cut him open over and over, and stuffed DIRT in his wounds so they wouldn't heal and he would bleed to death.

Uncanny X-Men 451, the issue you just mentioned, had Laura one-shotting him in the face with her foot claw while he had her ankle in a grip. In the same page Storm commented on how she was as fast and strong as Logan just as Laura knocked her out of the air by throwing a table. She only went down after she had already escaped and was ganged up on by Storm and Kurt. Logan said she wasn't in his league, but it's not like he did anything to back up his claim at that point in time. The faster thing may just be showboating. He managed to catch her arms in the same book while he said it.

I'll agree with Q99 that this whole run was retarded. X-23 literally does the GRRRR thing in every issue. NEVER in any other books. In 455 STORM knocked Logan on his ass while sparring with a katana. =/

A lot of discussion about Taskmaster and whether he deserves to be up there. But his skills aren't reliant on any superpower. He's just a freak of nature that has an insanely photographic memory. He's like Bullseye, whose just a freak of nature and has uncanny aim.

Arguments made against guys like Prometheus, Midnighter and Mr. X revolve around the fact that their fighting effectiveness and appearance of skill can be completely dispelled/destroyed if you mess with, or circumvent, their powers/enhancements. Mess with Prometheus' helmet, he's done. Bypass or shut down Midnighter's battle computer and he's done. Block your thoughts from Mr. X (or simply throw two people at him, yea, a low feat to be sure) and he's done.

You can't turn anything off for Taskmaster to be utterly tooled. Yea, it's cheap he learns skills so easily, but they become his skills forever. And while he may suffer a disadvantage from not being able to read you instantly (which would inevitably lead him to tooling you), he still has all those accumulated skills.

I also see no official vote to move him is being considered. So I typed all that for nothing essentially. sneer

^ Umm...is that really all that different from Slade making all the right moves because he's freakishly smart/quick?

I know in one case it was an unnatural mutation while in the other it was a...natural mutation but its still a superhuman trait.

So what you're doing is essentially saying "superhuman trait can't be turned off therefore indistinguishable from skill" which is...loopy?

It's a bit different because you could remove the copy power completely and he'd still retain everything from before.

It's a cheat to add more, but the skill itself is mundane.

Slade if he lost his brain thing would drop down in fighting ability a lot.

Taskmaster if he lost his, would still be able to fight like Daredevil/Captain America/etc., though he wouldn't be able to gain more moves mid fight. It'd merely freeze him at his current level unless he learned the old fashioned way.

^ Basically... yeah.

edit: Never mind.

Notes:
-I'm going to do the next update reasonably soon. But I'm doing a bit of a last call on some of the proposed changes so as not to make the changes precipitously, people should look carefully at the next three notes and weigh in if they have opinions on those changes that are soon to be passed or defeated.

-The following additions will be made in the next update, unless there's opposition: Savant to Second (3/0), Catman to Second (3/0)

-The following changes will be made in the next update, unless there's opposition/change in the votes: Tim Drake to Second (8/1), Gamora to Uber (10/7), Oracle to Third (3/0)

-The following will be defeated unless there's more votes in favor: Batgirl to Uber (3/6), Kingpin to Second (6/10), Punisher to Second (4/7), Thor to Second (1/4)

-Removed Drakon to second, Twelve Brothers in Silk to third, since no one is proposing the change anymore.

-I should note that movement of either Canary down without replacement will simply result in a vacant DC top tier slot.

-There is a vacant Marvel slot in the top tier.

-Where are people proposing moving Adam Warlock to, if they are proposing moving him?

-Can people weigh in on the proposed additions. I'll likely merge the two lists of proposed changes, if the Kingpin move is defeated.

Proposed Additions' Entry Points
Nemesis (Charis Adrastea) to second tier: 2 [comicfan, Style] /
Kanto to second tier: 2 [Omega, comicfan] /
Mera to third: 1 [Omega] / 1 [comicfan]
Tombstone to fourth: 1 [Omega] /
Juggernaut to fourth: 1 [Omega] /
Faora to second:1 [Omega] /
Catman to second: 3 [comicfan, Omega, srank] /
Savant (BoP) to second: 3 [marwash, Pr, Q99] /
Kang to third: 1 [Bentley] /
King Snake to third: 1 [marwash] /

Old Proposed Changes
Jubilee to third: 3 [Cresh, Q99, Konton] / 5 [comicfan, llag, Nataku, Blanket, Style]
Kingpin to second: 6 [Ize, V, jrod, srank, capt, Accel] / 10 [comicfan, Omega, marwash, dmills, Soljer, llag, Macoy, Nataku, Blanket, Style]
Moon Knight to second: 6 [dmills, Ize, llagrok, Fake McCoy, Deadline, Mungi] / 5 [Soljer, capt, endrict, Blanket, YFZ]
Midnighter to second: 3 [Ize, Soljer, Blanket] / 4 [Style, endrict, srank, dmills]

New Proposed Changes

Drakon to uber: 1 [Q99] / 1 [Pr]
Tim Drake to second: 8 [marwash, Spire, Kurupt, Phil, batdude, X, Pr, MM] / 1 [Konton]
Black Canary to second: 7 [Spire, Kurupt, MM, batdude, Omega, Pr, ODG] / 5 [marwash, srank, Konton, Omega, Q99]
Ares (Marvel) to second: 2 [ODG, comicfan] / 1 [jalek]
Hercules to second: 2 [Kurupt, comicfan] / 4 [Omega, Spire, batdude, jalek]
Gorgon to uber: 2 [dmills, Trackz] / 1 [AlmightyK]
Drax to second: 2 [dmills, AlmightyK] / 1 [Kurupt]
Superman to third: 8 [Omega, twigg, jalek, Spire, Phil, batdude, Pr, ODG] / 6 [comicfan, RAGE, Kurupt, Blanket, MM, marwash]
Punisher to second: 4 [YFZ, Deadline, Konton, MM] / 7 [comicfan, Omega, Kurupt, marwash, batdude, Q99, iceman]
Batgirl (Cass) to uber: 3 [Spire, Phil, Omega] / 6 [Kurupt, MM, marwash, batdude, ODG, Konton]
Thor to second: 1 [RAGE] / 4 [Omega, Spire, batdude, marwash]
Oracle to third: 3 [ODG, Q99, Omega] / 0

Nominations for the Marvel Top Tier slot:
Black Panther: 3 [comicfan, Trackz, dmills?] / 2 [Omega, srank]
Psylocke: 4 [dmills, srank, Omega, marwash] /
Sabretooth: 1 [dmills] / 1 [Omega]
Mr X: 1 [srank] / 2 [dmills, Omega]
X-23: 1 [Konton] / 1 [Omega]

P.S. I don't think I've missed any votes, but if I have or have made any mistakes then let me know/repost them.

Gamora should stay in the cosmic tier.

against psylocke to top tier

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
-The following changes will be made in the next update, unless there's opposition/change in the votes: Tim Drake to Second (8/1), Gamora to Uber (10/7), Oracle to Third (3/0)

Originally posted by TheTyrant
Gamora should stay in the cosmic tier.

Against batgirl to uber
Against Thor to 2nd (wtf?)
Against Superman to 3rd
Against Herc to 2nd
Leaning against BP for top tier but not sure.

Also, I'm retracting my nomination of Gorgon to uber.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
... despite my thought that 2/3 ratio or 66% would be appropriate, I thought that the criteria was 60+%? 10/17 = 58%... ... and now this would make it 10/18 or 55%. 👆

Originally posted by TheTyrant
Gamora should stay in the cosmic tier.

edit

Did I forget to vote 'no' to Superman to third? I'll vote no.

Against:... all of the following occupying Marvel's Top Tier slot.

Black Panther
Sabretooth
Mr X
X-23

^ Wait... who proposed the last three for top tier spot? In any case, I join in the votes against each of Sabretooth, Mr X and X-23. Mr X isn't even on the list. How does he enter into top tier?

Also... I'm against Psylocke to top tier. Kickin the crap out of Wolverine ain't gonna do it. And I've been reading comics ever since she turned into an Asian vixen.

😬

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
My bad, you're right, momentary memory lapse. When a proposal reaches 17 votes or more the threshold changes to a 4 vote majority, so Gamora stays as is for now. (And adjusts to an even higher threshold if even more votes ensue.)