Comic Book Martial Artist Hierarchy

I'll introduce suggested additions to third and fourth tier that have been seconded in the next update. I think that proposed additions to second tier should have a third proponent as a barrier to entry, to be fair to the characters already in the hierarchy.

I'm going to third, the suggestion of Barda into second tier.

Originally posted by Battlehammer
I have a problem with moving Hawkeye and this is my reasoning there are several characters within his very tier who are more skilled then he is or as skilled. Here is to name a few

People who are easily debatable as being nearly or more skilled are Black Knight, Mstigue, Yukio, sage, Shatter Star, US Agent

More skilled fighter

Blade, Midnighter,Psylocke, Punisher, Shadow Cat
Moon Knight,, Psylocke, Punisher, Sabretooth, Shadowcat, Wild Child,

This is not even all of them, so I find it difficult to believe that Hawkeye should move up a rank when there are many as skilled and several more skilled and deserving.

I'm sure that consensus could be found to move some of those up at least.

Btw, is Nick Fury really second tier?

I mean, he may be, I've not seen his hand to hand too often, it's just most of the time I see him using guns a lot more. I'd assumed he was more of a third tier in martial arts.

~Update~
Changes in bold.

Comic Book Martial Artist Hierarchy [200]

Cosmic Tier: (Transcendent Martial Artists) [3]
Gamora, Karate Kid, Mantis

Uber Tier: (Unearthly Martial Artists) [8]
Adam Warlock, Kirigi (DC), Mandarin, Moondragon, O-Sensei, Ogun, Stick, Temugin

Top Tier: ("Greatest Martial Artists"😉 [18]
Batgirl (Cassandra Cain), Batman (Bruce Wayne), Black Canary, Bronze Tiger, Captain America (Steve Rogers), Connor Hawke, Constantine Drakon, Daredevil, Elektra, Iron Fist, Lady Shiva, Richard Dragon, Shang Chi, Shen Kuei (The Cat), Snake-Eyes, Storm Shadow, Taskmaster, Wolverine

Second Tier: (Master Martial Artists) [61]
Agent X, Artemis, Azrael, Backlash, Batman (Dick Grayson), Big Barda, Black Panther (T’Challa), Black Widow, Bucky Barnes, Bullseye, Cable, Captain Mar-Vell, Champion of the Universe, Cheshire, Crossbones, Daken, David Cain, Deadpool, Deathstroke, Domino, Donatello, Echo, Erik Killmonger, Gorgon (Tomi Shishido), Grifter, Hawkeye (Clint Barton), Hawkman, Jason Blood, Judomaster (Hadley Jagger), Karnak, Lady Deathstrike, Leonardo, Magnus, Merlyn (DC), Michaelangelo, Midnight Sun, Mr Sensitive, Natas, Nick Fury, Nomad (Jack Monroe), Orion, Ozymandias (DC), Prometheus, Puck, Raphael, Ra's al Ghul, Ravager (Rose Wilson), Red Hood (Jason Todd), Red Skull, Silver Samurai, Steel Serpent, Stone, Talia al Ghul, Thanos, Twelve Brothers in Silk, Vandal Savage, White Tiger (Angela del Toro), Wildcat (Ted Grant), Wonder Woman, X-23, Zealot

Third Tier: (Highly Skilled Martial Artists) [70]
Alpha, Ares (Marvel), Arsenal, Bane, Beta Ray Bill, Black Bolt, Black Cat, Black Knight (Dane Whitman), Blade, Blue Beetle (Ted Kord), Colleen Wing, Doctor Doom, Doctor Mid-Nite, Doctor Strange, Donna Troy, Drax, Duke (GI Joe), Green Arrow (Oliver Queen), Grendel (Hunter Rose), Heavy Duty (GI Joe), Hercules, Hippolyta, Huntress, Kalibak, Katana, KGBeast, Kingpin, Lady Vic, Lashina, Lobo, Loki, Mad Dog Cain, Matsu'o Tsurayaba, Midnighter, Mister America (Tex Thomson), Mister Terrific, Mockingbird, Moon Knight, Mystique, Namor, Night Thrasher, Nightcrawler, Omega Red, Onyx, Prodigy, Psylocke, Punisher, Red Robin (Tim Drake), Revanche, Robin (Damian Wayne), Sabretooth, Sage, Shadowcat, Shatterstar, Shrike IV (Boone), Speedy (Mia Dearden), Spider-Woman (Jessica Drew), Stacy X, Starfire, Terry McGinnis, The Question (Vic Sage), Thena, Thor, Typhoid Mary, US Agent, V, Viper (Madame Hydra), Wild Child, Wong, Yukio

Fourth Tier: (Trained Martial Artists) [40]
Aquaman, Batgirl (Barbara Gordon), Batwoman, Beast, Blink, Blue Devil, Boom Boom, Boy Blue, Cannonball, Carol Danvers, Catwoman, Cinderella, Colossus, Cyclops, Danielle Moonstar, Deathbird, Falcon, Gambit, Hawkgirl, Invisible Woman, Iron Man, Jamie Madrox, Joker, Jubilee, Luke Cage, Mister Fantastic, Misty Knight, Nite Owl II, Prince Charming, Rorschach, She-Hulk, Storm, Strong Guy, Superman, Tarantula, Thing, Two-Face, Viper (Madame Hydra), Wonder Man, Zauriel

-Orion (1:3) and WW (1:4) changes were defeated. Regarding Drakon, a new separate proposal has been added.

-I should note that movement of Canary or Drakon down without replacement will simply result in a vacant DC top tier slot.

-Are people suggesting moving Mandarin and Temugin down - if so where? Beyond that, can people weigh in on the huge list below, before we move onto any new additions or changes for a bit? Particularly the Old Proposed Changes.

Proposed Additions' Entry Points
Darkseid to second tier: 1 [Gecko4lif] /
Darkseid to fourth tier: 1 [Omega] /
Nemesis to second tier: 1 [Style] /
Kanto to second tier: 2 [Omega, comicfan] /
Mera to third: 1 [Omega] / 1 [comicfan]
Tombstone to fourth: 1 [Omega] /
Caiera to third: 1 [Omega] /
Spider-Man to fourth: 1 [Omega] /
Juggernaut to fourth: 1 [Omega] /
Faora to second:1 [Omega] /
Lex Luthor to fourth: 1 [Omega] /
Ares (DC) to second: 1 [comicfan] /

Old Proposed Changes
Jubilee to third: 3 [Cresh, Q99, Konton] / 4 [llag, Nataku, Blanket, Style]
Kingpin to second: 5 [V, jrod, srank, capt, Accel] / 6 [Soljer, llag, Macoy, Nataku, Blanket, Style]
Moon Knight to second: 4 [llagrok, Fake McCoy, Alfheim, Mungi] / 4 [Soljer, capt, endrict, Blanket]
Midnighter to second: 2 [Soljer, Blanket] / 3 [Style, endrict, srank]
Blade to second: 4 [snoop, endrict, Darth Martin, Blanket] / 4 [Style, llagrok, capt, srank]

New Proposed Changes
Constantine Drakon to second: 1 [Q99] /
Tim Drake to second: 2 [Pr, MM] / 1 [Konton]
Alpha to second: 1 [Q99] /
Mad Dog Cain to second: 1 [Q99] /
Gamora to uber: 5 [Konton, Boubonmaster, Q99, jalek, srank?] / 3 [Blanket, Smurph, SuperiorTech]
Black Canary to second: 1 [Pr] /
Aquaman to third: 2 [Omega, comicfan] /
Merlyn (DC) to third: 1 [comicfan] /
Ares (Marvel) to second: 1 [comicfan] /
Mister Terrific to second: 1 [comicfan] /
Hercules to second: 1 [comicfan] /

Ares (DC) to second: 1 [comicfan] / -Sounds good, I'll give a yes vote

^ Second Black Canary to Second and Mister Terrific to Second as well as Gamora to Uber and DC Ares to Second.

I honestly don't see Gamora as "cosmic". Mantis I suppose is justified, KK certainly is. I still have a huge problem with Mandarin and Temugin being uber while Iron Fist is not.

Originally posted by dmills
I honestly don't see Gamora as "cosmic". Mantis I suppose is justified, KK certainly is. I still have a huge problem with Mandarin and Temugin being uber while Iron Fist is not.

lol at Mar-Vell being in second tier.

Anyway, I wonder how a proposed Wolverine to second tier would go about...

Originally posted by Blanket
lol at Mar-Vell being in second tier.

Anyway, I wonder how a proposed Wolverine to second tier would go about...

Second Gamora to uber. Motion to bump Iron Fist up to uber based on Mandarin and Temugin being there. Iron Fist has displayed more pure skill on panel, as well as higher end feats.

Then it may be a case of moving Mandarin and Temugin down, rather than moving Iron Fist up...

Originally posted by Blanket
lol at Mar-Vell being in second tier.

Anyway, I wonder how a proposed Wolverine to second tier would go about...

All the changes are still subject to subsequent change, should there be enough support, so Mar-Vell can move back up...

But preferably people shouldn't propose a change be reversed immediately upon it being enacted.

I'm against the proposed movement of Drakon and Black Canary. Drakon's one sided ass kicking on Connor (who has held is own agaisnt Shiva) is one of the most impressive skill feats of any of the DC characters in the top tier group and is largely unmatched. I could maybe see Canary being replaced with Catman, since he has stalemated Batman and Bronze Tiger, but I think that is a little premature. While I agree that I don't necessarily buy into Oracle saying Dinah is more skilled than Bruce, I wouldn't give any other DC character on the list odds against her in a strictly h2h match.

Catman needs to be added to the list also.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Then it may be a case of moving Mandarin and Temugin down, rather than moving Iron Fist up...
You could try it and see...

All the changes are still subject to subsequent change, should there be enough support, so Mar-Vell can move back up...

But preferably people shouldn't propose a change be reversed immediately upon it being enacted.

Originally posted by dmills
Second Gamora to uber. Motion to bump Iron Fist up to uber based on Mandarin and Temugin being there. Iron Fist has displayed more pure skill on panel, as well as higher end feats.

Unlike Iron Fist, the Mandarin and Temugin don't get beaten or stalemated by street level MAs. That's why they are higher.

Daredevil and Shang-Chi are both more skilled than Danny in terms of technique and application of their skill. Danny is more powerful and versatile sure but he isn't the most skilled person on the top tier listing. The Mandarin and Temugin are nuts, and they didn't steal their chi from a dragon. 😈

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
I'm against the proposed movement of Drakon and Black Canary. Drakon's one sided ass kicking on Connor (who has held is own agaisnt Shiva) is one of the most impressive skill feats of any of the DC characters in the top tier group and is largely unmatched.

But he has super-speed, it's not like he did it based on pure skill, he just blitzed him.

I could maybe see Canary being replaced with Catman, since he has stalemated Batman and Bronze Tiger, but I think that is a little premature. While I agree that I don't necessarily buy into Oracle saying Dinah is more skilled than Bruce, I wouldn't give any other DC character on the list odds against her in a strictly h2h match.

Catman needs to be added to the list also.

I think she's still more skilled than Catman. In the BT/CM fight, I did get the impression that Catman was having to push himself harder to keep up with a more skilled foe, and got a little lucky).

Originally posted by Q99
But he has super-speed, it's not like he did it based on pure skill, he just blitzed him.

I think she's still more skilled than Catman. In the BT/CM fight, I did get the impression that Catman was having to push himself harder to keep up with a more skilled foe, and got a little lucky).

He doesn't have super-speed, anymore than Batman does at least. He caught some arrows and blitzed a dude with a throwing knife. Sure, it was an awesome feat of skill but Richard Dragon, Bronze Tiger and Shiva have that crazy dagger relfection feat which is comparable to his speed.

Yeah, Bronze Tiger was defiantly more skilled than Catman in that encounter, which makes sense considering the idea they are trying to sell in Secret Six (and I don't know how successfully) is that Catman = Batman in terms of skill, and Bronze Tiger is more skilled than Bruce.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
He doesn't have super-speed, anymore than Batman does at least. He caught some arrows and blitzed a dude with a throwing knife. Sure, it was an awesome feat of skill but Richard Dragon, Bronze Tiger and Shiva have that crazy dagger relfection feat which is comparable to his speed.

He cause like a dozen arrows with two fingers shot by the best archers in DC and is totally casual about doing so. Batman couldn't do that. Cassandra Cain couldn't do that. They could dodge some, catch others, but pluck that many fired by the arrow family so calmly? Not even they could do that.

And what happens when Connor actually has enough space to react to him? Drakon just leaps forward and gets stabbed in the side. When skill comes to the table he's outdone.

@shrank,

No. He killed the dragon with his skills alone. Then he gained it's chi, which took years of skill and practice to master it's use.

@shrank,

Is that because of their chi amping or because of their skills? I'll answer for you, you don't know because all they have shown is high level chi amping. Nothing about it is "Pure Skill".