Originally posted by Q99
To spark some debate: Who would people say is among the top dogs of the top tier? 🙂And here's a topic: All the other Immortal Weapons.
Mostly second tiers?
Fat Cobra is easy second tier I believe, I am not sure he makes top tier. He does posses lots of experience and has demonstrated some great skill.
Originally posted by Q99
To spark some debate: Who would people say is among the top dogs of the top tier? 🙂
Cassie Cain, Elektra, Shiva, Dragon, and Shang Chi. Not in any order.
Order might be like Elektra/Shang -> Dragon/Cassie -> Shiva.
Big Barda should be in second tier at the moment. She's on Wonder Woman's level and always has been.
For Green Arrow to Third
For Tim Drake to Second
Against Starfire to Second. Third, maybe.
For Hawkeye to Second
Against "replacing" Constantine Drakon with Wonder Woman.
I'd like to suggest moving Canary down to Second, too. Simone took great pains to suggest that Canary wasn't on Batman's level, and while she did get some training from Shiva and Cass, i don't think it's sufficient to put her in that bracket.
Also, cant seem to see Jason Todd on the list.
Jason Todd is currently listed as Red Hood. In the next update I might rename some of the characters so they're easier to find.
An update on the votes for changes.
-This is what I've managed to discern from the posts. If I've misinterpreted your intentions please let me know.
-Mar-Vell, Hawkeye, Green Arrow and Thanos changes appear to have a strong consensus behind them. Unless there's a major change in the votes these moves will be implemented in the next update.
-Orion and WW changes appear to have a strong consensus against them. Unless there's a major change in the votes these proposals will be defeated.
-The seconded additions will be introduced in the next update unless there is any opposition to their suggested placements.
-Regarding Starfire would the three who have voted on that change settle on a compromise move to third?
Proposed Additions' Entry Points
Darkseid to second tier: 1 [Gecko4lif] /
Nemesis to second tier: 1 [Style] /
Big Barda to second tier: 2 [Omega, Konton]
Cinderella, Boy Blue and Prince Charming to fourth tier: 2 [Smurph, me]
Old Proposed Changes
Jubilee to third: 3 [Cresh, Q99, Konton] / 4 [llag, Nataku, Blanket, Style]
Kingpin to second: 5 [V, jrod, srank, capt, Accel] / 6 [Soljer, llag, Macoy, Nataku, Blanket, Style]
Moon Knight to second: 4 [llagrok, Fake McCoy, Alfheim, Mungi] / 4 [Soljer, capt, endrict, Blanket]
Midnighter to second: 2 [Soljer, Blanket] / 3 [Style, endrict, srank]
Blade to second: 4 [snoop, endrict, Darth Martin, Blanket] / 4 [Style, llagrok, capt, srank]
New Proposed Changes
Replace Constantine Drakon with Wonder Woman: 1 [Q99] / 4 [Pr, srank, Accel, Blanket]
Orion to uber tier: 1 [comicfan11] / 3 [Q99, Blanket, Konton]
Starfire to second: 2 [Q99, Konton] / 1 [Pr]
Tim Drake to second: 2 [Pr, MM] / 1 [Konton]
Alpha to second: 1 [Q99] /
Mad Dog Cain to second: 1 [Q99] /
Thanos to second: 5 [Omega, Boubonmaster, Q99, jalek, srank?] / 0
Captain Mar-Vell to second: 4 [Boubonmaster, Q99, jalek, srank?] / 1 [Blanket]
Gamora to uber: 5 [Konton, Boubonmaster, Q99, jalek, srank?] / 3 [Blanket, Smurph, SuperiorTech]
Hawkeye to second: 5 [Pr, Stilt, Smurph, Accel, Q99] / 0
Green Arrow (Oliver) to third: 3 [Pr, Accel, Q99] / 0
Black Canary to second: 1 [Pr] /
Originally posted by Accel
I'm not saying they're not skilled, but it strikes me as double-standard that the two of them make the top-tier list while Deathstroke sits in the 2nd tier.
I can see were you think this, but let me explain the differences. I though about this as well before, but it is not a double standard at all I will explain below.
Originally posted by Accel
far as physical stats go, I'd put Cap and Wolverine around Slade's level,
Originally posted by Accel
e., above guys like Batman and Daredevil.
Originally posted by Accel
thing is though, when Slade looks good against an A-List martial artist, it's chalked up to his physical superiority. When Cap or Wolvie do the same, somehow their physical stats are left out of the equation and it's a complete skill showing.
even look at who they face Deathstroke one of the few in DC at his level he faces human like tim drake, batman, green arrow, NW, batgirl ect.
Now Wolverine and Capt face guys like Taskmaster, Shang-chi, Iron Fist, Junzo, Ogun ect.
There not fighting guys physically inferior to them like DS. They have never shown asside from perhaps ennis writing to fight someone who human like batman and be unable to even walk after it. Or even get worked over by NW. This is because not not inferior in skill which is a main reason why deahstroke at times has such problem with bat family. They are physically inferior but if they can get him off balances they can maintain it through superior skill.
I mean if you want to say DS comparable you have to remember that Marvel guys are not fighting people inferior physically majority of the time when they faced skilled MA's like DS. They also never get worked like DS does.
good comparison is like Winter Soldier and NW. They are similar physically, skill wises, and though deathstroke has worked NW before he also had his handfill for a bit. This is not really the cases when Bucky or Winter Solider faught Wolverine or Capt. I mean wolverine choked buck out in 3 pannel and then when he fought winter solider who had bunch of onesided prep he still got best in there short altercation from a chained up wolverine. Then Capt fight with winter soldier he worked him.
Originally posted by Accel
most, I'd say Cap and Wolvie would be at the bottom of the top-tier, but Slade probably belongs in the same ranking as those two.
You be greatly mistaken, the physical level of each opponents are not the same.
Originally posted by xmarksthespot-Mar-Vell, Hawkeye, Green Arrow and Thanos changes appear to have a strong consensus behind them. Unless there's a major change in the votes these moves will be implemented in the next update.
I have a problem with moving Hawkeye and this is my reasoning there are several characters within his very tier who are more skilled then he is or as skilled. Here is to name a few
People who are easily debatable as being nearly or more skilled are Black Knight, Mstigue, Yukio, sage, Shatter Star, US Agent
More skilled fighter
Blade, Midnighter,Psylocke, Punisher, Shadow Cat
Moon Knight,, Psylocke, Punisher, Sabretooth, Shadowcat, Wild Child,
This is not even all of them, so I find it difficult to believe that Hawkeye should move up a rank when there are many as skilled and several more skilled and deserving.
Originally posted by -Pr-
Deathstroke has fought people either equally or more physically powerful than him, though.As well as that, he's fought Green Arrow level people two, three at a time and been successful.
Wolveirne and capt also tend vast majority of the time to fight high level MA's who are physically on there level, this is not the cases when deahstroke fights high level MA's.
There a differences in level of opponents physical abilities between the two worlds. Marvel has vastly more low meta's who are very popular, while deathstroke is really the only guy at his level and is pretty much implied the bat family can give him hel becuase there superior in skill. These's arnt things that are refferrenced to capt or wolverine though.
really what green arrow people were these's?
Originally posted by Battlehammer
I know that was not really the point, I was trying to make. Deathstroke tends to fight MA who are physically inferior to him, which is acknowledge by them, but still they can give him all hell, dispite his enhanced mind to boot. He gotten beaten, hurt worse then capt or wolverine ever has vs skilled MA's for the most part, unless for some super power. Big differences is even when they do fight human level guys, thoses guys posses some sort of trait which works as an equalizer to Capt and Wolveirne physical advantages.Wolveirne and capt also tend vast majority of the time to fight high level MA's who are physically on there level, this is not the cases when deahstroke fights high level MA's.
There a differences in level of opponents physical abilities between the two worlds. Marvel has vastly more low meta's who are very popular, while deathstroke is really the only guy at his level and is pretty much implied the bat family can give him hel becuase there superior in skill. These's arnt things that are refferrenced to capt or wolverine though.
really what green arrow people were these's?
i don't agree, tbh. slade has taken on people far more powerful people than him, and used his skill as an equaliser. that to me puts him on par with most of those guys.
the only question, imo, is how much of slade's greatness is his superhuman abilities and how much is pure skill.
green arrow. slade took on both him and black canary at the same time. and beat them.
I believe when the hierarchy was originally constructed, while we were trying to avoid factoring in "power-based skill" we were considering "skill-based power."
That could be the reason they've been placed so highly.
The question to the thread is whether we want to consider "skill-based power" or not. And the consequential movement of characters depending upon that.
Edit: Also I will probably try and do an update of the list soon.
Originally posted by -Pr-
For Green Arrow to Third
For Tim Drake to Second
Against Starfire to Second. Third, maybe.
For Hawkeye to Second
Against "replacing" Constantine Drakon with Wonder Woman.
What about just bumping Drakon down? I think there's a couple in second that deserve first more than him.
Bumping down Drakon and bumping up Diana are two different things.
I'd like to suggest moving Canary down to Second, too. Simone took great pains to suggest that Canary wasn't on Batman's level, and while she did get some training from Shiva and Cass, i don't think it's sufficient to put her in that bracket.
Hm... Dinah and Connor strike me as both lowish in the Top Tier.
Here are some of my suggestions:
Add Lashina to Third Tier, Kalibak likewise
Darksied to Fourth Tier
Kanto to Second Tier, at least
Mera to Third
Add Two-Face to Fourth
Tombstone to Fourth
Caiera to Third (or maybe Second)
Spider-Man to Fourth
Move Aquaman to Third
Juggernaut to Fourth
Add Faora to Second
Doctor Doom to Third
Lex Luthor to Fourth
Originally posted by Omega Vision
Here are some of my suggestions:
Add Lashina to Third Tier, Kalibak likewise
Darksied to Fourth Tier
Kanto to Second Tier, at least
Mera to Third
Add Two-Face to Fourth
Tombstone to Fourth
Caiera to Third (or maybe Second)
Spider-Man to Fourth
Move Aquaman to Third
Juggernaut to Fourth
Add Faora to Second
Doctor Doom to Third
Lex Luthor to Fourth
I second
Kanto to 2nd
Aquaman to 3rd
Doom to 3rd
Lashina and Kalibak to 3rd (both are trained warriors since birth)
Two-Face to 4rth
Against Mera to 3rd (She doesn't have any feats to suggest that)