Originally posted by BloodRainThis is getting out of control. All of these characters can seemingly react to one another. I think Kain outmatches him and is faster but Link is quick enough to react to him.
I think BT's point was that Link hasn't shown that he can react to someone teleporting to his blindspot and attacking him. The Spin attack is instant, but he must first react to something instantly appearing behind him.
Originally posted by The Scenario
So what I'm doing now doesn't count as argument?You know, they say insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. Arguing with you is sort of like that.
You're not making a whole lot of sense. You are claiming that both Link and Zant (Midna is there, too) are able to be hurt by something that is not real. That's what an illusion is. Something that fools the senses but isn't really there. Your definition makes it sound like an actual thing that can hurt people. That is a critical mistake. Another mistake is that you seem to think that Zant copied the boss weaknesses when that is clearly not true. I posted the videos, didn't you watch them?
Okay, first, Diababa's arena with the acid water. Against Diababa, Link must use the Gale Boomerang to carry a bomb up to the boss' eye. Against Zant, he just hits him with the boomerang and dumps him into the water. With Dangoro, Link has to throw him into magma. With Zant, he just hits him with the Master Sword. Against Morpheel, Link claws to his eye and stabs it wrangling him. Against Zant he just pulls him out of the giant head statue (not present in the original.) Zant obviously only copies the arenas, but the tactics vary wildly.
Finally, you have managed to misunderstand my analogy. A sword is a physical thing that can still hurt the creator. An illusion is not a real thing and cannot hurt anyone directly, especially not the guy who knows it isn't real.
Has Kain seen through illusions before? Wait, why am I even asking that; its not an illusion. Okay, hypothetically, if this was an illusion, has Kain seen through them before? Or even remained unharmed by one?
Further, vampires dissolve in water. You know this.
The evidence points to Kain and fellow vampires dying horribly in water. The archers simply drown.
The Elder God itself stated it spared Raziel from "total dissolution."
No, its more of a squabble, your just trying to counter a lot of what I am saying without a real argument or real points.
Thats what everyone who argues against Final fantasy spells which are apprently illusions (Supernova being the most talked about one) says and I belive you were among those people. Considering pain is simply a sensation created by nerves and the brain, a good enough illusion would not have much of a problem creating the effect of "damage" of what we see in TP from Zant. Physically neither are damaged despite what they are struck by during the arenas.
That does not disprove my line of thought, your simply stating that Link used a different tactic against the actual boss, the dunking in the acid and the predictable hovering over the acid pool seems all about the same, something a reality warper you know would change, as he can apprently warp reality.
You just said as I pointed out before that Zant is insane, how do you know he cannot be confused by his own illusions? and I have countered the "harm" part.
No but his mind has been unaffected by direct mind control which is a more powerful mental attack and a more invading one mentally than an illusion which is simply amplified suggestion usually brought forth by entering the mind, in this case its obvious because these arenas are so similiar to what Link has faced, as are Zants tactics.
Yes, over years of time as Raziel showed us. The evidence points to vampires that regenerate almost instantly from Raziels extreme PSI and strength taking time canonically to die in water, the only time they die quickly is in gameplay. The archers? Zants illusion areas cover hardly enough to take out a battlefield of archers who just a few of which would kill Zant and end this daft idea anyway so I suggest you drop this daftness. The guy would not even get the illusion going and thats assuming he can affect more than a couple of people. Its more likely Kain mindrapes Zant and uses Zant to use illusions against his own, mindrape is faster than Zants illusion.
From being completly dissolved, so? thats because he revived him from the dead....when Raziel awakes he is the spiritual realm therefore he has crossed over. Most vampires would simply turn into wraiths.
Originally posted by BloodRain
I think BT's point was that Link hasn't shown that he can react to someone teleporting to his blindspot and attacking him. The Spin attack is instant, but he must first react to something instantly appearing behind him.
Bingo, the spin attack may be quick enough to strike someone but Links never reacted to someone appearing in a blindspot and tearing his throat out.....hes got no chance and tbh neither do anyone watching his back.
Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
Again, that's stupid. You are saying Zant can only teleport in front of people.
BloodRain also said something similiar and gave examples....Kains not immune to fire, lighting and reality warping just because hes faced and overcome them.
Originally posted by BloodRainYou're strawmanning, accidentally, but you are.
Figured that would be in the same boat as Kratos not having lightning reflexes even if he fought with Zeus who throws them about, or Sora not being flame retardant even though he fought a boss that spews lava at him.
Zeus' lightning bolts are telegraphed, and no deflection occurs, this is like saying you're a bullet timer for beating someone in a gun fight.
Was Sora hit?
Zant actively does use his teleportation and often uses it specificly to come up behind you.
At 0:11-0:16. Xanto appears behind Link who, after the reappearing sound is heard, reacts and turns 3/4 of a second later. Being the only cutscene that I can recall of him appearing behind Link I think its safe to say that teleporting behind seems like a good idea against him..
Originally posted by BloodRainThe first time it happens he's surprised, the 9001 times it happens in an entire section of the Zant fight (he has a section where he teleports specificly behind you), Link does juuuust fine.
YouTube videoAt 0:11-0:16. Xanto appears behind Link who, after the reappearing sound is heard, reacts and turns 3/4 of a second later. Being the only cutscene that I can recall of him appearing behind Link I think its safe to say that teleporting behind seems like a good idea against him..
Originally posted by ScreamPasteIt's the manner in which these characters are portrayed. kain is very quick and fast. he's the elite vampire out of the entire series and previous games have outright stated he is so. Link can react in a sword fight but he's not fast he needs the skill set taught to him to achieve his destiny. It's state din the game he needs the skills taught by the warrior.
Why is it ridiculous? Kain has nothing in the way of speed feats, Link has reaction and striking time showings far above Kain.
Originally posted by quanchi112In other words, you don't have any proof Kain is faster than Link?
It's the manner in which these characters are portrayed. kain is very quick and fast. he's the elite vampire out of the entire series and previous games have outright stated he is so. Link can react in a sword fight but he's not fast he needs the skill set taught to him to achieve his destiny. It's state din the game he needs the skills taught by the warrior.
So he needs t3h skeelz to be fast? Yeah so did alot of DBZ characters, without training they would not be nearly as fast, yet are much faster than Kain.
Also, lightning nucka.