LOK3 Defiance vs. Twilight Princess

Started by The Scenario85 pages

You just completely ignored my first post. Thus, I am forced to assume you have conceded the following points, which were contained in that post:
-LoK magic being unable to disperse twilight.
-Kain's lack of resistence to Life Force of the Gods.
-Hylian magic resistance.
-Zant's instant twilight and ability to cast without moving.
-The fact that Hyrule outnumbers LoK by a large margin.
-Dark Eden being useless
-Kain's weakness to water
-Light Spirit's ability to seal away magic.

Anyway, now for the rest of it.

Originally posted by Burning thought
[B]You can see it, ime bored of your sad little games. And no, he did not miss, stop reaching.

Seriously, there's no need for insults. Why you are unable to debate without insulting people I will likely never know. Also, please stop with the strawman; I did not say that Raziel missed, I said that his fists barely touched Kain.


Yeh, I would however be surprised if you made a real argument and accepted video evidence instead of spamming your own delusions on the scene and claiming PIS on things you dont like, we can all do that.

Alas, more insults. Looking and listening to that scene, I find no evidence that Raziel was using his claws. The sounds more resembled punches than slashes, after all. I'm just saying that I find the fact that Raziel didn't use his full powers or even the Wraith Blade a bit disappointing. I thought he was smarter than that.


yes i have, many times, to you, to bloodrain (who also did a calculation that was more or less the same as mine).

I saw Bloodrain calculate the dimensional teleport. What I did not see is Bloodrain calculate anything canon to indicate that Kain had any abnormal reaction time.


Nice, you chose one where we dont see Zant cast the teleport in the first place, only phase in. Which took just under a second, unlike Kain who just appears, does not phase in vulnerable.

Is that all you wanted?
YouTube video

0:29, including some hefty time where Zant is just gone, and couldn't be attacked at all. And, surprise surprise, Zant can still cast without moving.


Also where the hell are yu counting from? from 2:50-:51, Kain has turned into light and vanished. So thats only about a second, not 3. And he appears more instantly than Zant, who sort of warps in at 2:56.

I counted from when the glow began at 2:50, to when Kain turned to light at 2:51-2:52, and then finally disappears at 2:53. Then, beginning at roughly 2:54, the glow begins again, and Kain finally apears at 2:57. Both times take roughly 3 seconds, for a total of 6 seconds for a full teleport.


Clearly not, as it would not float, this has, once again been argued by a few people. lava does not hold hundreds of tonnes on its surface...

Water holds hundreds of tons on its surface; ever heard of a battleship? Lava is thousands of times thicker than water.


Yes you are, gravity is still pulling the object, even if its not off the ground. Then add friction and youll find pulling/pushing something thats hundreds of tonnes (friction would be enormous) is damn hard, just as if not harder than holding it up.

No, you're not fighting directly against gravity unless you're going straight up. Gravity is a downward force (relatively, of course), so moving to the side is not directly against it. This doesn't really matter, anyway, since we know Raziel is strong since he already lifted it.


Since when his arms and his upper back become his whole body? regardless he does it in seconds and with ease. Dangoro is under 600 pounds.

You use your whole body to lift things, and Raziel's kick used his whole body. Dangoro is in no way under 600 lbs. How did you reach this conclusion?


That form of the blade is not supposed to, as it is purified. It purified moebius' sight.

That form of the blade is Raziel's soul, the part of the Soul Reaver that consumes souls. It became that way when the Soul Reaver first broke.


lol, she cant. Youve shown her go through a few bars and you now assume shes got hte ability to react (no reaction feats) to and go intangible before her heads dashed along the ground? nah...go find some feats please.

In this respect, Midna is exactly the same as Kain. Kain has never gone through anything more than bars, nor does he have any cutscene evidence of fast reaction time. Kain's TK is also quite slow, as you've shown me. He picked a soldier up, held him for a second, and then threw him. Even the soldier could react to it, though he couldn't do anything, unlike Midna, who could just crush Kain because her TK is so much stronger.


I dont know, something actually physically hitting the Goron thats impressive.

There is nothing in LoK more impressive than a few megatons of angry volcano. What I have already shown is sufficient.


Yes it is, Kain teleports from the room, in the same way he does throughout the scene and in the gameplay. The spectoral realm does not come until later. Both this teleport and the other are faster than Zant who all you can seem to show me, is the last part of his tleeport which is obvious.

In the gameplay, Kain makes a gesture and holds up the Reaver, and stands there for long enough for Raziel to hit him. In the scene, Kain takes several seconds fading away while the wraith blade appears and it shifts to the spectral realm.


Animations of soldiers surviving slashes is non canon gameplay mechanic, just like a recharging bar for the reaver spells. Canon statements and static objects like the Dimention emblem and the skill it gives the player are canon. No stance was changed, just your lack of understanding.

Canon statements like Kain saying he hits soldier to the ground and they bounce? The Dimension emblem is canon, sure, but there is no indication that it gives any skill.


But it never came face to face with itself in an immutable timeline. Come on, show me it physically taking a lot of damage without a scratch plz. Kains blade has taken centuries/millenia of use and has been impaled through solid rocks and people in armour without a moments stop or scratch to the blade.

Link repeatedly stabs the Master Sword into the ground, through armor, and slams it into the ground hard enough to make a shockwave. Has the Reaver ever been subjected to energy attacks?

YouTube video

YouTube video


Baseless statement, based on feats Kain can take anything in LoZ, while Ganon has at best spiritually been hit by falling rubble from Midnas attack, and thats ambigious....prove it, show me Midnas hairs power, Zant taking it and Zant being fine afterwards.

Baseless statement. There is no evidence that suggests Kain can take a single flaming arrow, sword strike, Master Sword strike, or basically anything else. Ganondorf can keep fighting after his body is destroyed, and even before then laughs at swords like they're nothing, and can just make another body.

Now, when did I say Zant was fine after he was hit? No, that killed him, but he took it for several seconds before exploding, and Ganondorf can revive him in any case. It'll take more than an arrow to replicate three strands of Midna's hair + the power of the Fused Shadows.


Show me the insult? you feeling all hurty inside does make it an insult.

Completely baseless accusations of spamming and trolling, calling me sad and delusional, repeatedly saying my arguments are pathetic or lies, and generally being quite rude, and that's in only the posts on the last page. You've even said to MooCow that you don't consider me a real debator. I'm trying to debate here, not trade insults with you, though at no point have I actually attacked you back.


The full and completed and in this case powerless fused shadows has corrupted whom?

Diababa, Fyrus (Darbus), and Morpheel.


Wrong, it takes ages for them to circle and the magic to finish, whats she hoping of achiveing in this state anyway?

YouTube video

You're talking about from 5:07 to 5:35? Yeah, that's not even close to how fast the transformation is. Check out 0:06 to 0:16, though the actual transformation can be heard to have occured at 0:11, much faster. So it's about 5 seconds instead of the 30 you were reaching for. In any case, Midna in that form could crush most of LoK, though she doesns't really need it. Actually, since that same video shows that Midna can still teleport others while she spins the Fused Shadows, she can just BFR anyone trying to attack her until she's done.


Dont need to until LoZ have shown resistance to mind control, soul powers etc

I have. Link, Ganon, Midna, and Zant via Fused Shadows and Mirror Shards, and the rest of the Hylians via the minor Dark Fog resistance. Oh, and of course the Light Spirits sealing LoK's magic away.


re-read they are canon.

No, you said that what I read was just Dark Chronicle's view, and not the canon description. Therefore, there wasn't a canon description in that link.


re-read I didnt attack you.

Accusations of trolling are indeed personal attacks. I would like it if you stopped calling me a troll.


He can create illusions from places either of them have been.

Yet it can still harm people,, so it doesn't matter what it is.


No magic or force touches link and furthermore, no reflection is even in the mirror.

YouTube video

You can plainly see it touching him at 4:03. And what would the Mirror reflect? It's not facing Link when we see the surface, and when it is facing Link, we can't see the surface.


No they dont burn instantly, and we know how acid works, it corrodes what it touches but it takes time, even on a frail human body, vampires are not frail and have a super fast regen.

We don't know how acid works on vampires, do we? For all we know it could only take a few seconds, just like what the cutscene actually shows.


You did say he missed it because you claimed the ledge was not a piece he struck, despite it having to be for him to send his tentacles past Raziel.

Where did I claim this? As I recall, this was what I said:

He does indeed fail fail to break that ledge.

YouTube video

3:20, he fails hard. 3:29, not one of those is as big as the ledge.

^That right there. I never said he missed. He missed Raziel, yes, but as the video shows, he slammed right into the ledge and completely failed to harm it.


Wrong, [video], claws were fully open. Please watch evidence I show you for once instead of making up your own mind on what you think should have happened to help you collapsing arguments.

Yeah, I've watched this so many time I know all the dialogue by heart. And yet, there is still no indication of claws. Raziel's hands move almost too quickly to see clearly, but Kain's cape strap remains unharmed, and punch use the same sound affect as the kick. All three sound like impacts, not slashes. And I still don't understand why Raziel doesn't just use the wraith blade.


Thats great if it was important, midnas TK is not in this case.

It is since she can just crush Kain, or just turn turn intangible as per your own argument.


Ofc dimentioanl port is canon, as is him reacting to Raziel who is faster than any vampire, which is canonically faster than any human. Funny becaus hes not got an instant twilight, and light spirits are notihng but beacons of twilight protection for normal soldiers in the LoK army (which may resist it like TP soldiers do anyway).

Prove Raziel is faster than any vampire (Kain is vampire, too, you know) and prove that any vampire is stronger than any human. Kain needs to use TK to help him move things in Blood Omen 2. Now, again, I've shown you the instant twilight, as well as the Light Spirit's abilities. Why do you ignore them? And anyway, I doubt LoK's soldiers can resist twilight, since they aren't hylian and thus don't have the natural magic resistance that the hylians do.


lol, keep spamming that if you like. Ill spam "LoK are all immune to LoZ powers", ofc I still have the evidence on my side ot support me so its not as bad as your spam of "gorons are resistant" despite being weakn and helplessly protected inside slabs of rock.

It's not spam when the evidence actually shows Goron durability. Just because you can't seem to actually counter it, it doesn't give you the right to call it spam. That's just attacking me again. You're basically saying that people shouldn't be hurt in car wrecks because they're protected inside a metal car. Since it's metal, it should work better than rock, right?


Evidnece does not have to back up a "negative argument" such as your claim that the tentacles are "not new ones".

No, see you claimed that they regenerate, so it's up to you to prove it. Same with multiplying. You attempted to use gameplay to prove this, so I really don't know what you're doing.


Based on feats, EG smashing tonnes of rock>>featless Gorons who are trapped and protected inside slabs of rock far weaker and smaller. His eye? ive already shown hes got thousands of them, hes got eyes all over his body. I like how one minute you use gameplay weaknesses and tactics only to talk against them the next....none of the LoZ team can do so much as tickle the EG.

The feats:
Gorons- surving volcanic eruption while inside cooled Magma (which would in fact make it worse) followed by being smashed into several dozen yards of ice, followed then by being exposed to a boulder smashing explosive.
Elder God- breaking small rocks and failing to break a larger ledge of rock.

Based on that, Elder God cannot harm the incredibly durable Gorons, while they can just continue to grind away at him until he loses a single eye, which apparently defeats him. Oh, right, gameplay. They just grind away at him and distract him while Link and Zelda kill him.


To summerise your plans fall flat, becaause the light spirits have not shown able to yet, only a random statement that does not actually say anything or show naything about them doing it. They cant incinerate anything, Vamps are immune, tehy may incinerate twilight forces however. Zant cant lay down twilight because hes dead from an arrow, it takes too long to do anyway, 40 seconds+. Shadow beasts are not as numerous as the Sarfan/Vampires using light powers to kill them all in seconds. The reality warping, regional sphere that comes from the 3 Circle members eliminate hyrule by themselves.

The Light Spirits have been shown sealing away magic, piercing Midna's resistance to light and nearly kiling her, and powering the light arrows. Kain does have resistance to sunlight, but since we know the Light Spirits can pierce resistance, Kain would be affected in the same way as Midna, and they won't even have to seal his magic away, like they did to the Dark Interlopers in the video I showed you.
Then Zant has been shown to call down twilight instantly as he did against Lanayru, and react to Wolf Link's jump, as well as resist Midna's hair (+the Fused Shadows) for several seconds, so even though he could dodge an arrow with ease, it would take much more to bring him down, and he can be revived anyway.
Shadow Beasts, being basically unkillable and able to revive each other as well as turn anything they kill into more Shadow Beats, will quickly overrun the Sarafan, who aren't shown to use light magic, which wouldn't work on the Shadow Beasts anyway because it doesn't even harm vampires. Since the vampires are extinct anyway, they won't be doing much. Then, since twilight also turns the Sarafan int Shadow Beasts, it will be that much quicker.
Dejoule, Bane, and Anarcrothe, despite not being in Defiance and having an unknown casting time on Dark Eden, would also be overrun by Shadow Beasts if they are not turned instantly, due to lack of feats as well as casting time, and because Dark Eden's expansion is quite slow.


The few Gorons that they are (they have not been said to be as an army afahs) get tossed or crushed by the EG, along with most of hyrule (thats 2 things so far that can solo Hyrule based on evidence). And Kain, with all his powers can solo hyrule, is too durable to be harmed and does vast damage both magical, spiritual and physical (3 things can solo now).

Because Elder God's ledge breaking failure, he finds himself unable to harm the volcano tanking Gorons as they grind him to dust, and finds that he is powerless as the Light Spirits sealed away his magic along with Kain's who is also powerless and incinerated.


Hyrules slow speeds, cast times, weak little bodies and lack of magical protection, certainly of any variety fail them at every turn. As does their lack of tactical manouver, disciplined forces (sarafan, vampires and maybe Hylden). This thread is spite in favour of LoK.

Hyrule's quick speed, cast times, and strong resistance to both physical and magical (not that magic matters because the Light Spirit's can seal it) damage, in addition to their advantageous numbers (Hylians, Gorons, Zoras, Twili, Shadow Beasts, Bulblins, Light Spirits and the other 50+ enemy types) will utterly destroy the forces of Nosgoth.


Oh, and if you ignore evidence and posts again I think ill just pick a single element of your points at a time in my posts instead of wasting time replying to it all. Just so your warned, ime tired of reposting repeats that will get ignored. This should force you to provide evidence and back up a particulour point.

No need to get so huffy. If you're just going to ignore more of my posts, it'll make it easier foor me to reply to the smaller stuff. So go ahead, it's not as if I'll stop posting evidence.

Yes as I thought, this is pointless. Reading through your post its exactly the same as the last one, and the one before that etc, your ignoring evidence and claiming things without solid basis and your counters to my arguments have mostly been "NO! wrongz!" or something thereabouts.

Originally posted by The Scenario

So, to summarize:

All of the LoK side gets their magic sealed by the light spirits, while Kain is incinerated by them. At the same time, Zant lays down twilight over the entire battlefield, turning the animals, plants, and LoK humans into shadow beasts or spirits. Raziel is destroyed by Ganondorf or Midna, while most everyone else is overrun by shadow beasts. The Gorons distract Elder God, seeing as he can't kill them, while Link or Zelda plunges the Master Sword/fires a Light Arrow into his eye, thus killing him. And thus Hyrule wins.

Ok, lets make this simple and maybe we will actually make some progress in this "argument". Summary vs Summary, please answer the following first, backup the bolded text in your summary with evidence please. Mentioning the resistances and strengths of both verses, what powers they use etc. For example, ill do the first one.

My argument at first is with the bolded text, is that Kain is immune to sunlight therefore what basis do you have that light spirits who are not sunlight in the first place and who have not affected vampires will harm him?

Second, how do you propose they seal any magic at all? when this is off-screen action without gauge of time and that it was a specific type and plot dedicated event that they did it within. Not to mension the fact they could not do it to Zant or Ganondorf throughout the TP game...therefore its clearly not something they can do in-battle.

Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
Force is not tangible, last I checked. It can affect the physical world because it is applied by something that is physical, usually. It does not have a physical form.

Except he can't, his quickest port requires a motion that Ganondorf does not require to TK. So he TKs while Kain is in motion, and halts the technique. Now Kain is helpless until, using your pathetic attempt at logic, he becomes intangible to escape something that isn't tangible anyway.

So I notice you didn't actually acknowledge anything. You are not one to talk about stretching, either. Does "infinite energy and magic manipulation" sound familiar to you?

Neat, I'm in charge of the LLLC now. ScreamPaste has been overthrown. Oh, but there is that "fanon" word again. If you would like me to get some fan fiction and use it I could get some fan fiction and use it. If I'm going to be accused of something I haven't done and am already guilty despite there being no evidence of such a thing, I might as well just do it, right?

So even you don't even think you are worth being nice to? Oh, well that makes two of us.

Now then, would you like to know something really funny? If I cared to learn about LoK I'm sure I'd find that your head is so far up your ass you can still see your last meal.

But force itself is still physical, it does not have to have a form. Either way, your trying to access a physical object which has now become spiritual/intangible in some way. Thus, TK becomes useless.

Wrong, SR teleport and Dimentional teleports dont need motions, furthermore Kain would react faster than Dorf so he would act first. Assuming Dorf can Tk at the range he would require.

Thats not stretching at all, thats simply using defintions from a dictionary and official developer comment.

Youve been using fan-fiction, from lightning speed LoZ to aircraftcarrier benchpressing link youve been using fanon.

If you cared to learn LoK, you would find everything I say is more or less correct, hell you would find htat from looking at most of my evidence. On the other hand, I have done similiar things and actually bothered to check up on LoZ from time to time and I usually find out youve bent the truth, or ignored time its taken for feats to happen (or lack of times, e.g. you never see it happen like the "island destroying" thing for Ganon).

Originally posted by Burning thought
My argument at first is with the bolded text, is that Kain is immune to sunlight therefore what basis do you have that light spirits who are not sunlight in the first place and who have not affected vampires will harm him?

Okay, here we go yet again. I'll bold the important parts for you.
YouTube video

From 0:16 to 0:31, we can clearly see Midna existing perfectly fine in the sunlight. Thus, we can prove that Midna has resistance to sunlight. Remember this. At 0:31, we also see that Midna leaves before the Light Spirit manifests itself.

Now, then.
YouTube video

Looking at 3:16, we see that despite Midna's proven resistance to sunlight, she is still affected. She is left in a near death state, unable to move or do much of anything. My claim is that, because the Life Force of the Gods (A.K.A the Light Spirit's light) has been proven to affect someone with proven sunlight resitance, it will also affect Kain, because his resistance has never been shown to stand up something stronger than sunlight. Kain has never stood up to something like the Life Force of the Gods, and the Life Force of the Gods is proven to affect someone with a similar resistance as Kain.

In addition, there's this.
YouTube video

From 1:06 to 1:45, Zelda says a prayer and asks for the light to banish evil. This manifests as the Light Arrows, which all four Light Spirits join to create. Thus it can be concluded that the Life Force of the Gods is the power behind the Light Arrows. This would also work in reverse, since the Light Arrows and the Light Spirits are using the same thing. Essentially, Midna got hit with a Light Arrow.


Second, how do you propose they seal any magic at all? when this is off-screen action without gauge of time and that it was a specific type and plot dedicated event that they did it within. Not to mension the fact they could not do it to Zant or Ganondorf throughout the TP game...therefore its clearly not something they can do in-battle.

YouTube video

1:30 to maybe 2:45. We know they can do it, and they did it before the Dark Interlopers knew what was happening. As for Zant or Ganondorf, the Light Spirits were not ordered to intervene there, and it was already being handled by Link, the Chosen One. This kind of thing only seems to happen when there is no Hero. Further, Ganondorf and Zant are using the power of Din, the Goddess of Power, via the Triforce of Power, and are thus on another level from the Light Spirits. The Light Spirits can't seal away Din's power, can they? She's sort of one of their bossess. The Dark Interlopers (and Nosgoth) were not using divine God/Goddess granted magic, so the Light Spirits were able to seal it.

But force itself is still physical, it does not have to have a form. Either way, your trying to access a physical object which has now become spiritual/intangible in some way. Thus, TK becomes useless.

Mist is not intangible. It's just water vapor, and would thus still be vulnerable as it is physical.


Wrong, SR teleport and Dimentional teleports dont need motions, furthermore Kain would react faster than Dorf so he would act first. Assuming Dorf can Tk at the range he would require.

The Soul Reaver teleport is slow, and the Dimensional teleport has unknown requirements (i.e: the meter you claim is non-canon) and is very short ranged. I still don't see this reaction time you keep bringing up. Regardless, Ganondorf dodges arrows point blank and blocks sword strike from any direction.


Thats not stretching at all, thats simply using defintions from a dictionary and official developer comment.

Which are? Infinite energy manipulation sounds like it's stretching logic past the breaking point.


Youve been using fan-fiction, from lightning speed LoZ to aircraftcarrier benchpressing link youve been using fanon.

I don't know about that, but thousand tons tanking, infinite energy manipulating Kain would be just as fanon.


If you cared to learn LoK, you would find everything I say is more or less correct, hell you would find htat from looking at most of my evidence. On the other hand, I have done similiar things and actually bothered to check up on LoZ from time to time and I usually find out youve bent the truth, or ignored time its taken for feats to happen (or lack of times, e.g. you never see it happen like the "island destroying" thing for Ganon).

I have, and I've learned several things. For instance, in Blood Omen 2, Kain requires telekinetic assistance to help him move anything roughly the size of a chest of drawers, and in Blood Omen Kain had a weakness to both rain and snow, at least until a Blood Fountain granted him protection. Raziel used to instantly disintegrate in water, at least until he absorbed Rahab's soul, and was also instantly killed by a single lightning attack from Janos. All the Pillar Guardians are highly vulnerable too mental attack, since one guy drove all of them insane.

Originally posted by Burning thought
But force itself is still physical, it does not have to have a form. Either way, your trying to access a physical object which has now become spiritual/intangible in some way. Thus, TK becomes useless.

Wrong, SR teleport and Dimentional teleports dont need motions, furthermore Kain would react faster than Dorf so he would act first. Assuming Dorf can Tk at the range he would require.

Thats not stretching at all, thats simply using defintions from a dictionary and official developer comment.

Youve been using fan-fiction, from lightning speed LoZ to aircraftcarrier benchpressing link youve been using fanon.

If you cared to learn LoK, you would find everything I say is more or less correct, hell you would find htat from looking at most of my evidence. On the other hand, I have done similiar things and actually bothered to check up on LoZ from time to time and I usually find out youve bent the truth, or ignored time its taken for feats to happen (or lack of times, e.g. you never see it happen like the "island destroying" thing for Ganon).

Did you read the same thing I read? Force cannot be tangible without a physical form, which it does not have. Intangibility will not work. And still. Even if it did, to what end? As soon as he drops the intangibility, he is TK'd again. Rinse and epeat.

Interesting. And these take how long to complete? A slow fade out and some other lengthy one, correct? Unproven and a pointless endeavor. And he's done it before.

Yeah, that's what I said. Stretching. I mean, it's stretching when we do it, right? You can't just treat anything you say as canon and anything we can prove as fanon. That would be some kind of sick double standard. And well, you're just too intelligent for that.

Except that you have failed to disprove either. You've whined about strength for at least the past year and will probably whine about reaction timing for just as long.

You've relied on a wiki, have been picking and choosing what little bits of information you use based on whatever helps you most, and most importantly, have been downright wrong on just about everything you've ever concluded anyway. I would hardly call that learning.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Okay, here we go yet again. I'll bold the important parts for you.
YouTube video

From 0:16 to 0:31, we can clearly see Midna existing perfectly fine in the sunlight. Thus, we can prove that [b]Midna has resistance to sunlight. Remember this. At 0:31, we also see that Midna leaves before the Light Spirit manifests itself.

Now, then.
YouTube video

Looking at 3:16, we see that despite Midna's proven resistance to sunlight, she is still affected. She is left in a near death state, unable to move or do much of anything. My claim is that, because the Life Force of the Gods (A.K.A the Light Spirit's light) has been proven to affect someone with proven sunlight resitance, it will also affect Kain, because his resistance has never been shown to stand up something stronger than sunlight. Kain has never stood up to something like the Life Force of the Gods, and the Life Force of the Gods is proven to affect someone with a similar resistance as Kain.

In addition, there's this.
YouTube video

From 1:06 to 1:45, Zelda says a prayer and asks for the light to banish evil. This manifests as the Light Arrows, which all four Light Spirits join to create. Thus it can be concluded that the Life Force of the Gods is the power behind the Light Arrows. This would also work in reverse, since the Light Arrows and the Light Spirits are using the same thing. Essentially, Midna got hit with a Light Arrow.

YouTube video

1:30 to maybe 2:45. We know they can do it, and they did it before the Dark Interlopers knew what was happening. As for Zant or Ganondorf, the Light Spirits were not ordered to intervene there, and it was already being handled by Link, the Chosen One. This kind of thing only seems to happen when there is no Hero. Further, Ganondorf and Zant are using the power of Din, the Goddess of Power, via the Triforce of Power, and are thus on another level from the Light Spirits. The Light Spirits can't seal away Din's power, can they? She's sort of one of their bossess. The Dark Interlopers (and Nosgoth) were not using divine God/Goddess granted magic, so the Light Spirits were able to seal it.

Mist is not intangible. It's just water vapor, and would thus still be vulnerable as it is physical.

The Soul Reaver teleport is slow, and the Dimensional teleport has unknown requirements (i.e: the meter you claim is non-canon) and is very short ranged. I still don't see this reaction time you keep bringing up. Regardless, Ganondorf dodges arrows point blank and blocks sword strike from any direction.

Which are? Infinite energy manipulation sounds like it's stretching logic past the breaking point.

I don't know about that, but thousand tons tanking, infinite energy manipulating Kain would be just as fanon.

I have, and I've learned several things. For instance, in Blood Omen 2, Kain requires telekinetic assistance to help him move anything roughly the size of a chest of drawers, and in Blood Omen Kain had a weakness to both rain and snow, at least until a Blood Fountain granted him protection. Raziel used to instantly disintegrate in water, at least until he absorbed Rahab's soul, and was also instantly killed by a single lightning attack from Janos. All the Pillar Guardians are highly vulnerable too mental attack, since one guy drove all of them insane. [/B]

So your argument is that just because the Twili are usually weak against sunlight, but Midna has immunity to it. That the light spirit being able to harm her means it can harm Kain in the same way? thats not logical at all, because then were talking about different weaknesses altogether. Sunlight was a natural vampiric weakness, not light in general. Then they outevolved it. Light spirits have no connection with vampiric weakness so Vampires have no reason to be any more vulnerable to the light spirits light/power than a human would be. Their not twili, their not twilight orientated in any way either which is what the Light spirits have shown to harm.

No because you just said all 4 light spirits joined to create them, therefore 1 light spirit is assuming it works this way, only a quarter effective. Not to mension, as you said "evil", so I dont think you can claim that the light arrows being powerful or not are anything to do with the power of a light spirit against midna, didnt think she was evil either.

So theres certainly a limit to what light spirits can seal and the best they have is sealing interlopers, which is amibgious, extremely ambgious because theyve not tried or attempted to do it on-screen. Theyve not even tried it on Ganon/Zant.

It would only be vulnerable if like Kain, a LoZ character has micro TK, e.g. the ability to TK something as small as vapour particles. Ive only seen things being moved as large as a creatures body or bigger, nothing smaller.

Slow? their as fast as Zants, more than good enough.

Infinite energy perhaps, but thousands of tons tanking is shown in an FMV directly. There is no question of that.

He did not require, as he lifts up fully armoured soldiers with one arm. He does however "use" Tk, yes...yes he did, this is not relevant because Bo1 Kain is not here and if he was, we would not be using the weakest version. Janos/Hylden lord is powerful, the fact he can kill Raziel in a strike, Raziel who can be thrown around by Kains vast strength without tkaing too much damage is damn imrpessive.

Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
Did you read the same thing I read? Force cannot be tangible without a physical form, which it does not have. Intangibility will not work. And still. Even if it did, to what end? As soon as he drops the intangibility, he is TK'd again. Rinse and epeat.

Interesting. And these take how long to complete? A slow fade out and some other lengthy one, correct? Unproven and a pointless endeavor. And he's done it before.

Yeah, that's what I said. Stretching. I mean, it's stretching when we do it, right? You can't just treat anything you say as canon and anything we can prove as fanon. That would be some kind of sick double standard. And well, you're just too intelligent for that.

Except that you have failed to disprove either. You've whined about strength for at least the past year and will probably whine about reaction timing for just as long.

You've relied on a wiki, have been picking and choosing what little bits of information you use based on whatever helps you most, and most importantly, have been downright wrong on just about everything you've ever concluded anyway. I would hardly call that learning.

Ofc it will, Midnas Tk wont be able to grab something shes never been able to TK, simple. Midnas not that fast.

You dont do it, you dont use developer statements. You use toonforce, your own math based on physics that have shown to be incorrect like bouncing Gorons. Then you pick and choose what parts of a scene you prefer. Ofc the more obvious things you like to do is claiming something impressive when we dont even see it happen, lightspeed LoZ characters and Castle bust tanking Ganon being several, Majora whip dodging link is another.

Everyone has disproven it, not just me. Bloodrain, Sin, so many people have simply laughed at your joke of an argument (which is not really an argument, its ignoring the game and making your own conclusion based on what fits it for you).

A wiki>you, as its unbias to this thread unlike KMC fans of LoZ. I have seen more than enough LoZ vids to know that Aircraft carrier throwing Link will never excist. Nor will Lightning speed Link. Its better than like you, being wrong about your own fiction thats been proven so many times.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Ofc it will, Midnas Tk wont be able to grab something shes never been able to TK, simple. Midnas not that fast.

You dont do it, you dont use developer statements. You use toonforce, [b]your own math based on physics that have shown to be incorrect like bouncing Gorons. Then you pick and choose what parts of a scene you prefer. Ofc the more obvious things you like to do is claiming something impressive when we dont even see it happen, lightspeed LoZ characters and Castle bust tanking Ganon being several, Majora whip dodging link is another.

Everyone has disproven it, not just me. Bloodrain, Sin, so many people have simply laughed at your joke of an argument (which is not really an argument, its ignoring the game and making your own conclusion based on what fits it for you).

A wiki>you, as its unbias to this thread unlike KMC fans of LoZ. I have seen more than enough LoZ vids to know that Aircraft carrier throwing Link will never excist. Nor will Lightning speed Link. Its better than like you, being wrong about your own fiction thats been proven so many times. [/B]

That first bit is horrid logic on it's own, but useful when applied against you. Kain's TK can't grab something he's never been able to TK, simple. Midna doesn't have to be that fast. Ganon is still around.

Toonforce does not exist in our used LoZ feats, you are daft for still thinking that it is even a working argument. You have used math for your own purposes as well, so that isn't really your problem. The math is not based on incorrect physics you daft fool. How do you not see how incredibly absurd the nonsense you say is? It's toonforce when he benchpresses a rock heavier than the Elder God, but when a 200 ton rock person bounces on lava, that has to be totally serious and disproves any attempt at proving LoZ uses realistic physics. Read your own damn posts.

BloodRain and Sin are about as annoyed with the LLLC as you are. BloodRain probably less so. Appeal to popularity fallacy. I think that's one of them, don't particularly care, really. The idea is everyone else doing it doesn't make it right.

Indeed, the wiki is unbias. However, you, the person quoting it, are not. Prove me wrong for once, and you can have that last statement.

Its brilliant logic, its why characters like the Jean Grey from X-men being able to break apart a being from a molecular level (may not have been Jean but hte point is clear) is impressive. Not everyone can use TK to attack micro things, or indeed enormous things due ot their power. kain can control mist, and blood particles at their tiny level as well as lift something as large as a human. Midna afaik cannot, therefore mist will slip through her hold. Ganons not fast either.

Its not an argument, its a status that is used within fictions, unrealistic physics is common in fiction. I have used math correctly, I have not defended a universe which has flawed physics using math as if its something perfect. Especially when the exact areas your trying to math are flawed in physics. lmao, you just said I say absurd nonsense before claiming Link can press rocks heavier than the EG, I loled. Thats pretty a major flaw in physics, when your trying to calculate accuratly the Gorons weight (impossible, no in-game specifics can be given)

Were all annoyed, both people who think your fanon is daft because of evidence shown or people who have played the games your screwing up and insulting the franchise. Everyone disproving you is not a "bandwagon" fallacy, that would be claiming an argumetn is right simply because a lot of people agree with it. I am claiming my argument is right, because al ot of people have given evidence for it.

Its irrelevant whos quoting it, the wiki is unbias, plain and simple. Its also just as viable if not more so than your claims even from your point of view (its obviously superior to anyone who sees your fanon as nonsense).

Kain can escape from TK, Midna would have trouble (Kain can TK on a particle/blood level) and Ganon is helpless unless he escapes through teleport. But hes too slow to react to a teleport/stab anyway, as has been concluded for link as well by not just me. The evidence is stacked against your side in this thread...

Originally posted by Burning thought
Its brilliant logic, its why characters like the Jean Grey from X-men being able to break apart a being from a molecular level (may not have been Jean but hte point is clear) is impressive. Not everyone can use TK to attack micro things, or indeed enormous things due ot their power. kain can control mist, and blood particles at their tiny level as well as lift something as large as a human. Midna afaik cannot, therefore mist will slip through her hold. Ganons not fast either.

Its not an argument, its a status that is used within fictions, unrealistic physics is common in fiction. I have used math correctly, I have not defended a universe which has flawed physics using math as if its something perfect. Especially when the exact areas your trying to math are flawed in physics. lmao, you just said I say absurd nonsense before claiming Link can press rocks heavier than the EG, I loled. Thats pretty a major flaw in physics, when your trying to calculate accuratly the Gorons weight (impossible, no in-game specifics can be given)

Were all annoyed, both people who think your fanon is daft because of evidence shown or people who have played the games your screwing up and insulting the franchise. Everyone disproving you is not a "bandwagon" fallacy, that would be claiming an argumetn is right simply because a lot of people agree with it. I am claiming my argument is right, because al ot of people have given evidence for it.

Its irrelevant whos quoting it, the wiki is unbias, plain and simple. Its also just as viable if not more so than your claims even from your point of view (its obviously superior to anyone who sees your fanon as nonsense).

Kain can escape from TK, Midna would have trouble (Kain can TK on a particle/blood level) and Ganon is helpless unless he escapes through teleport. But hes too slow to react to a teleport/stab anyway, as has been concluded for link as well by not just me. The evidence is stacked against your side in this thread...

With every new thing you say you remind me why none of this is worth it. TKing on an atomic level is not something Kain can do. He could TK some blobs of blood, sure. Some mist too, but these things are not on an atomic level. The very idea is laughable. Ganon does not have to be fast. Kain's quickest port requires a motion, as I've said before, about five times now. But if you bothered to read instead of just saying things while totally convinced of your own superiority you might have realized that. Any other of Kain's ports is too slow.

Edit: Forgot to respond to your second paragraph.

Once again. Double standard, which is pretty damn impressive considering the conflict only applies to one game. Bravo, you have reached new levels of daft. What are you going to do next? (This is the part where you say "I'm going to Disneyland!"😉

Toonforce may very well exist in LoZ, but one instance does not disprove the many blatant examples of more realistic physics than any I've seen in LoK. Toonforce is not something you can simply claim to auto-defeat any point made against you as you treat it to be. It's a pitiful excuse for an argument, which is why you use it. Make a point that isn't daft, for once.

/edit

The first sentence is wrong pretty much all around. And the second sentence you could have, had you said "have disproven your argument" instead of "simply laughed at it." But you didn't, wrong again. You're good at that. No, they have not. All that has been given is the same thing we're usually guilty of, feat downplaying. Unfortunately for you, none of what anyone said disproved anything.

Daft. Who is quoting it is not irrelevant. A transfer of information takes place, and in this transfer the information can be tampered with, or simply chopped up and specific parts of it, potentially harmful to the person transferring, left alone and ignored. This is that "you picking and choosing what you use" thing I mentioned earlier. You'd know that too, but again, you don't really seem to read things.

All of the last paragraph is wrong, as outlined earlier in this post and many, many others.

Probably because you know youve not got an argument that can counter my own. I didnt say Kain can TK at an atomic level, it was an example of how you would need to have the ability to control mist/blood or w/e form Kain chooses to assume to be able to hold him while in those forms. LoZ cannot. You keep claiming things are too slow but have no evidence of this "speed" Ganon has at his disposal. Ganon does not have precog so regardless of how slow the initial teleport you think is, Kain will have killed Ganon before he can turn.

Ofc it disproved it, techincally you disprove yourselves anyway based on the fact you use a vid to claim strength or speed that does not even show it, then you claim its because of a graphics or memory limitation of the system the game was made on lol. Several people have even bothered to disprove that rather poor counter by bringing up other games that do things with limited graphics just fine, you ignore them as usual.

So your claim is that I quoted things that just so happened to make LoZ weaker than your vision of it? lol...."sigh"

Yeh, well as good as a counter that that is (its not) ill counter it in the same way, everything was right, as proven in almost eveyr post, including some of my oppositions.

Fix your post by responding to my edit before I continue to bother with you.

-Edit: Toonforce is not an argument, as I said its just something to note to why your argument is flawed. If an event is toonforce then clearly the universes designers are not as interested in solid physics and correct maths as other universes, that like to keep realistic physics. Trying to caculate Dangoro or anything in that scene as physically viable when toonforce clearly happens, majorly and scripted toon (not just gameplay) then its wrong. Problem is, most scenes someone has tried to math have been flawed. Like Link using GG to lift the pillar.

And I have been to Disneyland several times, I doubt I will go again in the near future.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Probably because you know youve not got an argument that can counter my own. I didnt say Kain can TK at an atomic level, it was an example of how you would need to have the ability to control mist/blood or w/e form Kain chooses to assume to be able to hold him while in those forms. LoZ cannot. You keep claiming things are too slow but have no evidence of this "speed" Ganon has at his disposal. Ganon does not have precog so regardless of how slow the initial teleport you think is, Kain will have killed Ganon before he can turn.

Ofc it disproved it, techincally you disprove yourselves anyway based on the fact you use a vid to claim strength or speed that does not even show it, then you claim its because of a graphics or memory limitation of the system the game was made on lol. Several people have even bothered to disprove that rather poor counter by bringing up other games that do things with limited graphics just fine, you ignore them as usual.

So your claim is that I quoted things that just so happened to make LoZ weaker than your vision of it? lol...."sigh"

Yeh, well as good as a counter that that is (its not) ill counter it in the same way, everything was right, as proven in almost eveyr post, including some of my oppositions.

Which is a dumb point to make, even if it were correct. As soon as Kain comes out of this form, TK'd again. The count for this statement is at six. And you have no evidence Kain is any faster than Ganon, let alone fast enough to make like 3 maneuvers before Ganon can make one.

No, downplaying feats does not disprove anything.

The claim is as I've said. You pick and choose what to use based on what serves your interests the best. As well as harping on something trivial to provide some sort of weak reasoning for you ignoring everything else that supports whatever it is we said.

Originally posted by Burning thought
-Edit: Toonforce is not an argument, as I said its just something to note to why [b]your argument is flawed. If an event is toonforce then clearly the universes designers are not as interested in solid physics and correct maths as other universes, that like to keep realistic physics. Trying to caculate Dangoro or anything in that scene as physically viable when toonforce clearly happens, majorly and scripted toon (not just gameplay) then its wrong. Problem is, most scenes someone has tried to math have been flawed. Like Link using GG to lift the pillar.

And I have been to Disneyland several times, I doubt I will go again in the near future. [/B]

So it's a point you've attempted to make in order to establish an argument that my argument is flawed. Wow, that's so much different.

As I said earlier, one instance of toonforce cannot negate multiple other blatant instances of realistic physics. GG scene was not flawed, last I checked.

Originally posted by Burning thought
So your argument is that just because the Twili are usually weak against sunlight, but Midna has immunity to it. That the light spirit being able to harm her means it can harm Kain in the same way? thats not logical at all, because then were talking about different weaknesses altogether. Sunlight was a natural vampiric weakness, not light in general. Then they outevolved it. Light spirits have no connection with vampiric weakness so Vampires have no reason to be any more vulnerable to the light spirits light/power than a human would be. Their not twili, their not twilight orientated in any way either which is what the Light spirits have shown to harm.

No, you are setting up a strawman here. I did not say that Twili are weak to all light, or light in general, and that is not in evidence due to Midna not being affected at night even after being exposed to the Life Force of the Gods. And it is quite logical. Twili and vampires share the same weakness, and the Light Spirits can exploit it in the same way. Because both Midna and Kain share a resistance, and because the Light Spirit affected Midna through the resistance, it would affect Kain in the same way, also through his resistance. Because Kain has never showed resistance to something stronger than sunlight, he shouldn't resist it.


No because you just said all 4 light spirits joined to create them, therefore 1 light spirit is assuming it works this way, only a quarter effective. Not to mension, as you said "evil", so I dont think you can claim that the light arrows being powerful or not are anything to do with the power of a light spirit against midna, didnt think she was evil either.

Which would also mean that a light arrow would be 4 times as effective as the light Midna was exposed to. And both Twili and Vampires have a weakness to sunlight, so the Life Force of the Gods would affect them the same way, even through resistance.


So theres certainly a limit to what light spirits can seal and the best they have is sealing interlopers, which is amibgious, extremely ambgious because theyve not tried or attempted to do it on-screen. Theyve not even tried it on Ganon/Zant.

Dark Interlopers = Fused Shadows. When the Light Spirit's sealed the magic, it became the Fused Shadows, which is the source of Midna's power. They can take magic away, and put it in an item. I've already told you they couldn't affect the Triforce of Power because it's the magic of the Goddesses, and as such is beyond them.


It would only be vulnerable if like Kain, a LoZ character has micro TK, e.g. the ability to TK something as small as vapour particles. Ive only seen things being moved as large as a creatures body or bigger, nothing smaller.

Zant has TKed air, and enough to make a visible wave.
YouTube video

0:26, specifically. Something like that near Kain and it'll disperse him quite handily. Well, that's assuming the Light Spirits don't kill him. Mist can't escape light.


Slow? their as fast as Zants, more than good enough.

No. Even Kain's fastest teleport,
YouTube video

at 5:36, is still a split second slower than Zant's,

YouTube video

at 3:32. And his general movement is faster than Kain, too, at 1:33.


Infinite energy perhaps, but thousands of tons tanking is shown in an FMV directly. There is no question of that.

As is Link lifting Dangoro, and Ganondorf tanking a castle explosion, but you don't seem to want to accept those.


He did not require, as he lifts up fully armoured soldiers with one arm. He does however "use" Tk, yes...yes he did, this is not relevant because Bo1 Kain is not here and if he was, we would not be using the weakest version. Janos/Hylden lord is powerful, the fact he can kill Raziel in a strike, Raziel who can be thrown around by Kains vast strength without tkaing too much damage is damn imrpessive.

I don't really care, either, so there's no need to justify it.


Ofc it will, Midnas Tk wont be able to grab something shes never been able to TK, simple. Midnas not that fast.

Can Kain even attack in mist form? Like Moo says, Kain has to come out of it at some point, and Midna can just transform in the meantime or stay intangible herself.

I don't care about the rest of that post.

Originally posted by The Scenario
No, you are setting up a strawman here. I did not say that Twili are weak to all light, or light in general, and that is not in evidence due to Midna not being affected at night even after being exposed to the Life Force of the Gods. And it is quite logical. Twili and vampires share the same weakness, and the Light Spirits can exploit it in the same way. Because both Midna and Kain share a resistance, and because the Light Spirit affected Midna through the resistance, it would affect Kain in the same way, also through his resistance. Because Kain has never showed resistance to something stronger than sunlight, he shouldn't resist it.

Which would also mean that a light arrow would be 4 times as effective as the light Midna was exposed to. And both Twili and Vampires have a weakness to sunlight, so the Life Force of the Gods would affect them the same way, even through resistance.

Dark Interlopers = Fused Shadows. When the Light Spirit's sealed the magic, it became the Fused Shadows, which is the source of Midna's power. They can take magic away, and put it in an item. I've already told you they couldn't affect the Triforce of Power because it's the magic of the Goddesses, and as such is beyond them.

Zant has TKed air, and enough to make a visible wave.
YouTube video

0:26, specifically. Something like that near Kain and it'll disperse him quite handily. Well, that's assuming the Light Spirits don't kill him. Mist can't escape light.

No. Even Kain's fastest teleport,
YouTube video

at 5:36, is still a split second slower than Zant's,

YouTube video

at 3:32. And his general movement is faster than Kain, too, at 1:33.

As is Link lifting Dangoro, and Ganondorf tanking a castle explosion, but you don't seem to want to accept those.

I don't really care, either, so there's no need to justify it.

Can Kain even attack in mist form? Like Moo says, Kain has to come out of it at some point, and Midna can just transform in the meantime or stay intangible herself.

I don't care about the rest of that post.

Not really, because your argueing a strawman against me somewhat. Your argueing about how Twili who are creatures of the twilight are affected by the light spirit who has shown to banish twilight is similiar to Vampiric sunlight weakness. Their completly different because Vampires are only weak to sunlight, not light in general, not "life force of the Gods", also define "stronger than sunlight" when sunlight is all their weak against? one light is unique to another, the rays of the sun is the only weakness vampires ever had that could kill them quickly and they evolved past it, especially Kain who excists in it all the time.

Yes, light that only affects twili and evil so far. That is not an assumption you can make, because Light spirits do not control "more powerful sunlight", they have their own kind of power which twilight seems affected by. You cant assume that they are stronger than the only weakness vampires truly have.

I see so once again we only see light spirits influencing twilight. Which it took all of them to influence and an unkown amount of time. LoK magic is beyond them as well, hell 3 of the weakest members of the circle can do what the fully powered triforce of power could do which includes warping and changing the sacred realm to the dark iirc, they made a pure and normal area into Dark Eden. 3 weak ones that is. Even if majority of the circle for some reason are not allowed, Mortanius and Moebius, more powerful members are here.

Thats a blast of TK, not TKing air...you miss the point, you need to show a LoZ character actively grasping air with their TK and controlling it.

Kains had no fear of light since immunity to sunlight as a weakness, hes never throughout his life been burned by magical light, or fire torches either so your light spirit point has fallen dead. And assuming your plan could be proven that light spirits harness a stronger form of sunlight then no, mist cannot escape light but mist is not harmed by light either.

That teleport takes Kain half a second at best, Zants not faster and his maddened mind make him less of a threat, unlike Kain he would not be able to think of any tactical usage of his powers, which is evident in how when he telepors in-game he usually seems to do something basic like teleport right in front of a foe.

Thats not much faster than when Kain speed impales moebius, Kain could clear a few meters in a split second. Kains even quicker while in mist form "like a shadow fleeing light".

No its not, iirc he lifts Dangoro (600 pounds or less) not only in gameplay but more importantly, at about the same time as a toonforce event breaking the idea that maths in the series, or at least that area is daft. And Ganon does not tank it in an FMV, because we dont even see it happen. We dont know what hits him tbh and hes in the form of a spiritual/fiery head that is not as physical as his Ganondorf/Beast forms.

If you dont care then stop replying to someone elses posts please, I dont want to say the same thing to each you and Moo over and over.

No, but Kain cna go in and out of mist form night instantly, e.g. quicker than LoZ can react and he can use mist form to dart physically or throuh mist to any target he pleases, or Teleport to them. Their doomed/dead after that.

Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
Which is a dumb point to make, even if it were correct. As soon as Kain comes out of this form, TK'd again. The count for this statement is at six. And you have no evidence Kain is any faster than Ganon, let alone fast enough to make like 3 maneuvers before Ganon can make one.

No, downplaying feats does not disprove anything.

The claim is as I've said. You pick and choose what to use based on what serves your interests the best. As well as harping on something trivial to provide some sort of weak reasoning for you ignoring everything else that supports whatever it is we said.

So it's a point you've attempted to make in order to establish an argument that my argument is flawed. Wow, that's so much different.

As I said earlier, one instance of toonforce cannot negate multiple other blatant instances of realistic physics. GG scene was not flawed, last I checked.

I have the teleports, moebius killing movement and dimentional port movements all faster than Ganon whos more or less featless when speed is required, i think the best things I have seen him do fast are in WW. And you like claiming they can Tk him over and over, despite not being able to hold him basically because hes too strong as well. Midna is the only one who may be able to.

But thats the problem, theres not a lot suporting your arguments at all. Even the videos you rarely provide usually aid me, combined with the text based storylines I can read online, its obvious your talking rubbish, doubly so when other fans on the forum find ways of disproving you as well.

Ofc its different, its not my full argument, my argument is how flawed your one is based on evidence AND toonforce.

Yes because GG vid showing the little guy lifting something that would break his bones from the force going through him, break the ground beneath his feet if it was thousands of tonnes and later throw him over as he tosses it without moving his arms (despite showing difficulty even lifting it slowly later which I did some math for) so yeah. GG vid is damned unlikely, thats ignoring the fact the pillar based on weight and its height would fall over, not just be lifted up.

It is physically impossible for Dangoro to be 600 pounds or less. There are humans about 4 feet shorter than him and much less muscled that weigh that.

Originally posted by Burning thought
I have the teleports, moebius killing movement and dimentional port movements all faster than Ganon whos more or less featless when speed is required, i think the best things I have seen him do fast are in WW. And you like claiming they can Tk him over and over, despite not being able to hold him basically because hes too strong as well. Midna is the only one who may be able to.

But thats the problem, theres not a lot suporting your arguments at all. Even the videos you rarely provide usually aid me, combined with the text based storylines I can read online, its obvious your talking rubbish, doubly so when other fans on the forum find ways of disproving you as well.

Ofc its different, its not my full argument, my argument is how flawed your one is based on evidence AND toonforce.

Yes because GG vid showing the little guy lifting something that would break his bones from the force going through him, break the ground beneath his feet if it was thousands of tonnes and later throw him over as he tosses it without moving his arms (despite showing difficulty even lifting it slowly later which I did some math for) so yeah. GG vid is damned unlikely, thats ignoring the fact the pillar based on weight and its height would fall over, not just be lifted up.

I've seen his fastest, which is what you wank to claim this .2 reaction time bullshit. Ganon can beat that without having to lift a finger, because he doesn't have to lift a finger at all. Ganon and Midna should both be able to hold him just fine without him escaping. The idea that intangibility will still allow him to escape is absurd. Also, lol at Midna having stronger TK than Ganon.

Actually they don't. With your usual daft logic, you will harp on minor details and cling to them, and when these fail in your eyes, it doesn't even matter when they fail in the face of real logic, you'll just claim toonforce.

Toonforce is not even a point. It's just stupid. But out of curiosity, where is this evidence?

Yeah. That little guy is nonsense, and lifting something that would break his bones is part of the feat. You've harped on this for the past year or so as well. You see that? You're claiming it's toonforce because he wouldn't be able to have the strength of body to do it. It's pretty absurd, claiming that doing it actually invalidates it as a feat. I've seen this cracking the ground thing as well, but has anyone ever proven it?

Originally posted by Burning thought
Not really, because your argueing a strawman against me somewhat. Your argueing about how Twili who are creatures of the twilight are affected by the light spirit who has shown to banish twilight is similiar to Vampiric sunlight weakness. Their completly different because Vampires are only weak to sunlight, not light in general, not "life force of the Gods", also define "stronger than sunlight" when sunlight is all their weak against? one light is unique to another, the rays of the sun is the only weakness vampires ever had that could kill them quickly and they evolved past it, especially Kain who excists in it all the time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

A straw man is when you summarize an opponent's point but change a key detail so that you can refute it, except you didn't actually refute the original point. That's not what I'm doing.

I'm claiming that Twili have a weakness to sunlight just like vampires did. I never said that Twili are weak to all light, which is what you are strawmanning. I'm then arguing that because Midna has a resistence to sunlight, that she is similar to an evolved vampire. Then I argue that because the life force of the gods affects her through her resistance, it would also affect an evolved vampire. By stronger than sunlight, I mean it pierces the resistance of a being with resistance to sunlight.


Yes, light that only affects twili and evil so far. That is not an assumption you can make, because Light spirits do not control "more powerful sunlight", they have their own kind of power which twilight seems affected by. You cant assume that they are stronger than the only weakness vampires truly have.

Why not? Kain is both a being of darkness and quite evil. Actually, regardless of the fact that Kain would be affected, he still would be affected because of his alignment. So yeah, lose-lose for Kain.


I see so once again we only see light spirits influencing twilight. Which it took all of them to influence and an unkown amount of time. LoK magic is beyond them as well, hell 3 of the weakest members of the circle can do what the fully powered triforce of power could do which includes warping and changing the sacred realm to the dark iirc, they made a pure and normal area into Dark Eden. 3 weak ones that is. Even if majority of the circle for some reason are not allowed, Mortanius and Moebius, more powerful members are here.

Nah, they sealed away [ccolor=red]great magic[/color], which took the form of the Fused Shadows. Since the Dark Interlopers where eventually banished to the Twilight Realm and became the Twili, this was before twilight existed as it does now. It was dark magic before it became associated with twilight.

And, as it turns out, Ganondorf corrupted the Twilight Realm.
YouTube video

0:47, "Bathed in that light, all people were pure and gentle...
But things changed once that foul power pervaded the world."

It seems that when the Sages sent Ganondorf to the Twilight Realm, it became corrupted under his influence.


Thats a blast of TK, not TKing air...you miss the point, you need to show a LoZ character actively grasping air with their TK and controlling it.

It's blast of air being shoved away by TK, otherwise it wouldn't be visible as the shockwave. But regardless, Kain can't do that, either.


Kains had no fear of light since immunity to sunlight as a weakness, hes never throughout his life been burned by magical light, or fire torches either so your light spirit point has fallen dead. And assuming your plan could be proven that light spirits harness a stronger form of sunlight then no, mist cannot escape light but mist is not harmed by light either.

No, his magical light is designed not to harm vampires, and when was Kain not burned by a torch? But you're wrong there, as mist tends to get burned off by sunlight as the water that forms it evaporates. It doesn't usually last past mid day.

That teleport takes Kain half a second at best, Zants not faster and his maddened mind make him less of a threat, unlike Kain he would not be able to think of any tactical usage of his powers, which is evident in how when he telepors in-game he usually seems to do something basic like teleport right in front of a foe.

Ha, nice try. That fading thing of Kain's takes more than half a second, but maybe less than one. Zant's is quicker, as is his movement speed. But really, are you trying that argue that Zant won't be able to do what he's already been shown doing? In, game, Zant often teleports behind Link, once he draws his swords.

YouTube video

8:44 and onwards. Zant is tactical, if insane.


Thats not much faster than when Kain speed impales moebius, Kain could clear a few meters in a split second. Kains even quicker while in mist form "like a shadow fleeing light".

Zant covers more distance in a similar time, so he's slightly quicker than Kain is. I don't even know what you're talking about with the mist thing.


No its not, iirc he lifts Dangoro (600 pounds or less) not only in gameplay but more importantly, at about the same time as a toonforce event breaking the idea that maths in the series, or at least that area is daft. And Ganon does not tank it in an FMV, because we dont even see it happen. We dont know what hits him tbh and hes in the form of a spiritual/fiery head that is not as physical as his Ganondorf/Beast forms.

Oh, wait, so lifting Dangoro in gameplay makes in unusable? Well, I guess that just invalidates all of Raziel's strength, and the dimsensional teleport by your own argument. Toonforce is still not a valid argument. As for Ganondorf, we know he was inside the castle when it exploded, and there's not much evidence suggesting he was intangible at all, but if he is, no one in LoK could hit him.


If you dont care then stop replying to someone elses posts please, I dont want to say the same thing to each you and Moo over and over.

Uh huh. K', I guess I'll just let Moo handle himself, he's good enough to do so.


No, but Kain cna go in and out of mist form night instantly, e.g. quicker than LoZ can react and he can use mist form to dart physically or throuh mist to any target he pleases, or Teleport to them. Their doomed/dead after that.

Kain is not faster than anyone in Hyrule can react. He'll be vulnerable to a gale boomerang, light spirit, or TK blast like that anyway.

It's amazing, isn't it? Watching him try to wriggle his way through everything you say as you pile more and more on top of him. Even if there isn't a hole, he pretends there is one.

Edit: Though, if you want to reply to what he says to me, Scenario, go for it. Who cares if he doesn't want to repeat himself. That's pretty much what anybody who talks with him does.