LOK3 Defiance vs. Twilight Princess

Originally posted by The Scenario

Oh, my mistake, I guess. Still, the Light Spirits have light designed to target things like vampires, what with having the light to banish evil.

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But you should know that nearly everything you just said is false. The soldiers resisted Dark Fog, not twilight, and twilight has affected peasants, soldiers, Gorons, Zoras, Kargarocs, Bulblins, Deku-Babas...And anyway, twilight forms very quickly, as Zant has proven.

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0:06 and 4:12, for instance, have you forrgotten them?

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And check out the jerk at 1:35, the Zoras at 2:45, and another Shadow Bulblin except this one has a Shadow Kargaroc with him.

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0:35 for the fast twilight, and 3:15 for Kain's Bane.

I swear I already did this, but okay.

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10:00, "That shing sphere illuminates this world. It's called a Sol. It's like the sun of your world, Link. The power of the Sol is the source of life in this world...It is pure power."

And then,
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0:10, dispersing Dark Fog.
0:23, powering devices.
0:40, powering/opening doors by proximity.
4:08, breaking the Shadow form of a cursed Twili.
5:00 creating platforms of solid light.

You're latching onto nothing right now. Literally nothing. The number you are dialing does not exist. Have you not considered that Ganondorf's castle is quite durable? Have you not considered that Link threw the block into a force field, and that's why it broke (which puts Ganondorf's shields several orders of magnititude above any shield in LoK)? Have you not considered that merely lifting that thing puts Link far above anyone in LoK? Of course you haven't, because you're grasping at nothing. Have you not considered that OoT is irrelevant to this debate?

And Ganondorf, and evil, and magic. Regardless of whether or not it's related to sunlight, that alone let's it harm Kain.

i.e: Evil enough for the Light Spirits and Master Sword. Both of them have affected Midna, and before the Sols were infused in it the Master Sword had never been specifically geared towards twilight. Selfishness is enough, damning the entire world and claiming it's his duty to kill the weak are just icing on the pain cake.

Ya, but it still happened, you know.

Anybody even with some resistance? Yeah, that's be no limits. Anyone that doesn't have resistance? Fair game. Midna had the powers of the ruler of the twili (which was the reason Zant hated her), so she wasn't exactly defenseless.

What with LoK's lack of twilight resistance, I doubt it.

No, I'm pointing out that Faustus made a big fail of inertia right there, what with the hanging in mid air and making quite a humorous show of it. Thus all of LoK is invalidated, by your logic. So, why don't you explain to me why Raziel doesn't crack the area he stands on while he lifts a 24 ton block? All that weight on a point the size of his foot, and the floor doesn't even crack? Yeah, go ahead, you'll be doing Link a favor, since it's the same thing he did.

I dont know why you mathed Raziel again, several people have done that getting around 50 tonnes. But explain to me how halving Dangoros solid "stone" weight that you just mathed gives you the outcroppings exactly? because that does not make sense at all.

And give me a reason why "kains durability is now a nonfactor"? assuming your math is correct on Dangoro, and forgetting that LoZ and certainly that area of it is absorbed in Toonforce/lack of physical reality you still only get Link with the strength around comparable to Raziels, therefore Links sword still bounces/breaks off Kains skin the same way Raziels does no damage. This is Link, arguably the strongest based on "flawed" math on his feats in LoZ.

Banishing evil is an ambigious term and may be fallible. Vampires not being evil sort of ruins it as well (and no, you cant use Kains single actions to damn the vampires as a race, even if you are misguided in calling him evil).

Dark fog and twilight both seem to transform things into creatures, I think your calling two unique uses of twilight two different things. Their source is the same.

Not sure I have actually seen these Gorons in the twilight, not that Gorons have anything beyond human magic resistance.

The last video shows twilight coming back the area after the light spirit was removed. The twilight was called across hyrule after Zelda was defeated in the previous "Dark fog" vid, and it took almost half a minute, if not a full minute to complete.

Midna says its "like the sun in your world", ambigious as to why, her next statement seems to be the answer to the "why" simply because it illuminates life. But its not the sun, nor has it the rays of light that comes from the sun....so its of no use here...

I am latching onto the fact that if it was 1k tonnes which is not evident in anything other than fanon anyway it would do a large number of things I have previously mentioned thats just not happening ,therefore clearly the developers, at least in this scene (although a lack of physics seems to occur in this series, plus some toonforce) are not interested in physics and math is irrelevant for the block.

Ganondorf iirc in that part of the game had been part of twilight and used twilight powers quite often throughout, especially when he possessed Zelda. It seems twilight is the main thing the light spirits can affect.

No its not, since when is being selfish evil? its never, your "latching" and "reaching" to attempt to use light spirits to harm vampires, when all they do is harm twilight with ambigious claims of harming evil...

That does not help them, all we know is that they did something involving sealing magic, a specific kind of magic.

She was defenceless, because she did nothing. And even if for some reason I forget Kain and vampires in general being above a defenceless young twili its still a one target attack that has a range of about a meter, its also slow.

Its a supernatural ability for him to leap like that, vampires also float, its part of their power set. Your not disproving anything by trying to use supernatural showings as "failings" of physics. Same thing? according to the fans/fanboys and the math they created the thing Link lifts is apprently 1k tonnes, not just 50 which Raziel does not really lift, he pushes. Not to mension, the area that Raziel is standing on is made of the same stuff hes lifting, its not cracked earth, mud, or w/e.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Have you not considered that a certain tactic is the only way for Link to beat Ganondorf? I mean, they went through the trouble of animating Ganondorf jumping out the way of arrows, boomerangs, clawshots, etc. Don't say no limits fallacy; just because that's the only way Link could have won doesn't mean it's the only way period. Ganondorf dodges arrows point blank, so he is in fact capable of it. Just because the bow is out doesn't mean Ganondorf knows exactly when Link will shoot, so he's obviously reacting to just the arrow.

As for the rest of that paragraph, it's mostly wrong. Link and Ganondorf both looked into the Mirror of Twilight (and as Blizzeta shows, you only need to look at it), and Ganondorf crushed the Fused Shadows in his hands. Which are touching it.Also, just because Ganondorf has control of something doesn't mean he's immune to it, wasn't that what you said? Ganondorf can possess people, therefore he has immunity to possession. He uses lightning, spells, I guess that means he's immune to electricity (proven false in cutscene, by the way). Oh, he uses magic, that makes him immune to magic, right? You just said it.

The contradiction has been bolded. It affects the soul, therefore resisting it means resistance to soul based effects. Kain's spells have no feats on anything with resistance, so you have nothing to say he can affect them.

I never said it was for Zant. His feat is stealing the Fused Shadows from Midna.

Just like Link became a wolf in the twilight as a form of resistance, Ganondorf became a god.

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1:30.

That's just mean.

Neither you or I are at liberty to claim thats the only tactic he can do it, fact is thats a gameplay mechanic. Link pulls out the bow, pulls back the arrow etc, Ganon can see it clear as day and arrows/links movements are not as fast as pulling a trigger on a gun, which can be reacted to in the same way. A bow and arrow is easy, even for a human technically watching someones hand movements/aim would be childs play, for Ganon whos apprently beyond a human in stats it sohuld be no problem.

I said that having a power, does not make you immune to it that is true but when a power is under your control, and your already evil and corrupted then its hardly going to affect you. Its like claiming Kain is harmed by his own inspire hate spell, or lightning, he is in control therefore its not hitting him. Ganons in control in this case.

It transforms, thats not an affect of soul reaping/raping or devouring. Thats a completly different effect.

The fused shadows dont touch him iirc, and the fused shadows combined have done what? when formed completly ive only seen them do anything when on Midnas head.

You tripped up, because Midna is talking about that little thing in her hand that Zant put in Link. Not the MS which is not mentioned.

True, but the world is a mean place 🙁

Originally posted by Burning thought
I dont know why you mathed Raziel again, several people have done that getting around 50 tonnes. But explain to me how halving Dangoros solid "stone" weight that you just mathed gives you the outcroppings exactly? because that does not make sense at all.

As I said, it was for completion's sake. If I was going to math something, I was going to math both sides. What have other people done to get 50 tons? The quote in your own profile has the block at around 10 tons. I just used what I had (the source I linked) and came out at 24 tons. By no means is Raziel weak, but he's still less than half as strong as Link by my calculations. Dangoro, just like all Gorons has his entire backside made of rock. I cut it in half because it accounts for half his size.

And give me a reason why "kains durability is now a nonfactor"? assuming your math is correct on Dangoro, and forgetting that LoZ and certainly that area of it is absorbed in Toonforce/lack of physical reality you still only get Link with the strength around comparable to Raziels, therefore Links sword still bounces/breaks off Kains skin the same way Raziels does no damage. This is Link, arguably the strongest based on "flawed" math on his feats in LoZ.

According the math, Link and Ganondorf are more than twice as strong as Raziel. And since Raziel with 24 tons of force could peirce Kain's skin, break his ribs, and pull out his heart, Link and Ganondorf can do much more with their 56 tons minimum, especially since they have actual blades, and are specially able to deal with Kain.

Banishing evil is an ambigious term and may be fallible. Vampires not being evil sort of ruins it as well (and no, you cant use Kains single actions to damn the vampires as a race, even if you are misguided in calling him evil).

I'm not talking about vampires, though. I'm just talking about Mr. Damn the world and kill anything I don't like.

Dark fog and twilight both seem to transform things into creatures, I think your calling two unique uses of twilight two different things. Their source is the same.

Ya, just like soul stealing and lightning can come from the same, so they must be the same. There is an obvious difference between Dark Fog and twilight, given that soldiers have minor resistance to one and not the other.

Not sure I have actually seen these Gorons in the twilight, not that Gorons have anything beyond human magic resistance.

I just gave you a video showing Gorons in twilight. Did you watch it? Does Kain have anything above human magic resistance? Or twilight resistance?

The last video shows twilight coming back the area after the light spirit was removed. The twilight was called across hyrule after Zelda was defeated in the previous "Dark fog" vid, and it took almost half a minute, if not a full minute to complete.

You didn't see it being cast that time, so you can't claim that. We did see it being cast against Lanayru so I can claim this.

Midna says its "like the sun in your world", ambigious as to why, her next statement seems to be the answer to the "why" simply because it illuminates life. But its not the sun, nor has it the rays of light that comes from the sun....so its of no use here...

Can you prove that claim? The sun is vital to life here, too, you know.

I am latching onto the fact that if it was 1k tonnes which is not evident in anything other than fanon anyway it would do a large number of things I have previously mentioned thats just not happening ,therefore clearly the developers, at least in this scene (although a lack of physics seems to occur in this series, plus some toonforce) are not interested in physics and math is irrelevant for the block.

There is no reason it should do anything you named. It wouldn't crack the floor if Ganondorf's castle was sufficiently tough, and the fact that it breaks does not mean it's light, just that hitting a force feild was enough to break it (which elevates Ganondorf's shield to a new level). Why is this different from Raziel's block again?

Ganondorf iirc in that part of the game had been part of twilight and used twilight powers quite often throughout, especially when he possessed Zelda. It seems twilight is the main thing the light spirits can affect.

And evil. Can't forget evil. If just using a type if magic makes you just like most that use it, wouldn't that make Raziel a Hylden?

No its not, since when is being selfish evil? its never, your "latching" and "reaching" to attempt to use light spirits to harm vampires, when all they do is harm twilight with ambigious claims of harming evil...

Since you damn a world just because you think it's your duty to kill off the weak, that's when. It's not ambiguous, it's outright stated that they can banish evil.

That does not help them, all we know is that they did something involving sealing magic, a specific kind of magic.

All it says is dark magic and great magic. It wasn't twilight until they were banished to the twilight realm. And before the magic users could retaliate, as well.

She was defenceless, because she did nothing. And even if for some reason I forget Kain and vampires in general being above a defenceless young twili its still a one target attack that has a range of about a meter, its also slow.

Woah, where are you getting all this? Prove these claims, please.

Its a supernatural ability for him to leap like that, vampires also float, its part of their power set. Your not disproving anything by trying to use supernatural showings as "failings" of physics. Same thing? according to the fans/fanboys and the math they created the thing Link lifts is apprently 1k tonnes, not just 50 which Raziel does not really lift, he pushes. Not to mension, the area that Raziel is standing on is made of the same stuff hes lifting, its not cracked earth, mud, or w/e.

It's a supernatural ability to jump, not to blatantly disregard inertia. Vampires can slow a fall, not hover, and Faustus didn't even bother to do that. He hung in the air, something not allowed by either of his abilities, and reached out to a ledge before falling. Now you're the one using supernatural abilities to claim bad physics. Why not let the gauntlets prevent breaking the ground, that's the same as jumping allowing one to hover, isn't it? Nah.
The area Raziel is standing on is not the same as the block. Different color and everything. Link isn't standing on cracked earth or mud, either, so why do you say that? The fact remains that the feats are the exactly the same.

Neither you or I are at liberty to claim thats the only tactic he can do it, fact is thats a gameplay mechanic. Link pulls out the bow, pulls back the arrow etc, Ganon can see it clear as day and arrows/links movements are not as fast as pulling a trigger on a gun, which can be reacted to in the same way. A bow and arrow is easy, even for a human technically watching someones hand movements/aim would be childs play, for Ganon whos apprently beyond a human in stats it sohuld be no problem.

I can claim that's the only tactic for Link, since it is in fact the only tactic Link uses that works. And no, letting go of a bow's string is much faster and easier than pulling a trigger, as I've done both. Prove that people can react to a single finger moving, please. And at least we've finally agreed that Ganondorf's stats are superior to a human's, especially since he dodges point blank arrows.

I said that having a power, does not make you immune to it that is true but when a power is under your control, and your already evil and corrupted then its hardly going to affect you. Its like claiming Kain is harmed by his own inspire hate spell, or lightning, he is in control therefore its not hitting him. Ganons in control in this case.

No, it's not like Kain being unaffected by Inspire Hate or lightning, since he's the one aiming it. This is more like Raziel still being vulnerable to having his soul drained by the Soul Reaver even though he eats souls. Ganondorf isn't in control of the Fused Shadows, as he doesn't use them. So touching them should have affected him, but didn't because he had resistance. Heck, Ganondorf was affected by the Fused Shadows before, when Midna used them to remove him from Zelda's body.

It transforms, thats not an affect of soul reaping/raping or devouring. Thats a completly different effect.

Transformation is something a raping, and the soul is separated from the body. Regardless, Wolf Link's bite can remove souls and Ganondorf can resist that.

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The fused shadows dont touch him iirc, and the fused shadows combined have done what? when formed completly ive only seen them do anything when on Midnas head.

Midna somehow took them back, and when Zant took them he apparently removed the from inside her body. Midna likely removed them the same way, as they weren't visibly on Zant. As I've said before, the first three bosses of Twilight Princess, Diababa, Fyrus (Darbus), and Morpheel were all under the Fused Shadows influence, and it was implied that the Fused Shadow was the reason Death Mountain was erupting.

You tripped up, because Midna is talking about that little thing in her hand that Zant put in Link. Not the MS which is not mentioned.

Yes, that turns him into a wolf, and the Master Sword turn him back. Link has to put the Master Sword away before he transforms, too. Hmm, maybe it is something Link can activate at will.

Originally posted by The Scenario

yes i should probably remove the bit in my profile, its old information that I used before math was being so vigorously implemented. Bloodrain did this:

I dont know where Screams is but all of us got around the same figuires.

BloodRain wrote on Feb 2nd, 2010 07:22 PM:
This is something i cooked up:

261^3= 17779581 = V
2.5-2.6 = D

Block = 49-51 tons

Around 50 to 55 tons would be about right. And he fact that he was flipping it over shows it was an easy feat, so 50 tons is the minimum.

He has his backside of rock, hardly accounts for "half" his size when its just outcroppings along his back.

Thats like saying that the undulating mounds on this crabs back:

Account for half its size, when in truth their a minor portion of growths on his shell.

Raziel with over 100 tonnes of force (Raziel moves two of said block) projected through the tip of a blade cannot even leave a mark on a healthy Kain.

You think measly light spirits whos best feat of banishment is on whom? Midna...a weak little imp is comparable to Kain who has vast resistance to sunlight AND magic? I loled, and no, Kains not evil.

But they dont come from the same, lightning comes from the sky and soul stealing comes from spiritual spells or the reavers devouring powers. How do you know that soldiers do not have resistance to twilight? just because youve seen a few in the twilight? for all you know they died and their spirits went there by default, were not at liberty to say twilight clouds put them there unless you have evidence?

You showed me them after already succumbing to spiritual form, not actually being within the twilight like the soldiers who resisted it earlier.

Yes we did, we just did not see the caster but we see it being cast over the world and transforming people. Its part of the storyline, even I know that so dont try and pull the wool over my eyes. And we dont see any "cast", we see the spirit being beaten, and the twilight returning after its gone.

Prove what? that it has rays of sunlight when all we see is a dimly lit globe like a low watt lightbulb? I think your video proves it for me. And you know, its not sunlight even if it "was like" sunlight, which its not because as I said, dimly lit.

Argue "why" it should not do any of those things, dont just pretend saying it wont happe nis a refute please. So now you have to prove Ganons castle is tough, if thats your argument because from what I have seen, small tremurs have collapsed Ganons castle in OoT. Its completlely different because you know....1000 tons vs 50? I showed you information on a tank (I tihnk it showed it to Moo actually) that could not be built because 1000 tonnes would completly wreck the landscape.

Twilights not just a magic source, if youve missed your own fiction then I am sorry, but its kinda important part of the plot that twilight was what the Twili actually lived in and what covered the realm. Its not just "magic source".

When does Kain say that? that he damns it for that reason? Because the last time I checked he chose not to be lost/killed for the sake of the world. This just means hes not into self-sacrifice...thats not evil. Also, despite his intensions, it could be argued Kains choice is the better one thus, he is more an agent of good. "banish evil" is ambigious, first its a no limit fallacy to claim they can banish all evil, because some beings in fiction are far beyond the whole of LoZ yet are evil, and furthermore evil itself is an ambigious term.

Can you show me evidence of this please, that it was not twilight powers before it was banished there.

Prove them? ime talking about the video your using? what other proof do I need than that?

Slow fall/hover, similair things and he does not do it for long. Either way hes a supernatural being who has both them powers, claiming "physics is not used" for a supernatural force/being is ridiculous especially when he has powers that would allow him to do that in this case.

Because gauntlets dont do that, or anything like it. Links standing on earth in one vid I have seen, in your vid hes standing on what looks like already weak poorly placed blocks of a castle, the sort of build that early castles in our world was made from without too much precision or strength. And even the strongest castles would never take 1k tonnes, your still reaching.

During the gameplay mechanics. 😆 your claiming pulling out a bow, pulling back its strength AFTER putting an arrow in it and releasing is quicker than pulling a trigger? "sigh", your getting desperate I see, Ganondorf can predict and see all this happening unless hes not got even human common sense then he wont be any use in this matchup (not that he is as it stands). I have used a bow as well (but not a gun) and its common sense that if someone was putting an arrow in their bow, and pulled back the string you would have far more time to dodge than if someone aimed a gun and pulled the trigger.

No hes not, since when? he casts lightning storm and because hes in control of it, its striking his enemies. Its the same thing with twilight powers in Ganon, he controls twilight, hell he can transform into it from what ive seen when he possesses. Same with inspire hate, it affects an area.

Show me someone touching the completed fused shadows and being affected by them.

Transformation through twilight is just that, technically the soul is not even harmed. The body seems the most at risk to the peasants in the video, because their souls are left behind. Thats nothing alike to what Lok use. Your just showing me a gameplay scene where midna and wolf link are fighting a spiritual enemy. Him being able to attack ghosts is not the same as ripping out a living entities soul, dont remember Ganon getting canonically bitten by wolf link.

The fused shadows? the completed helmet? or just a piece of the helmet before midna completed? be honest now... 🙂

Explain how the MS slowly reversing a transformation of Dorf/Zant magic and does not passively protect him (your evidence did not show it passive protection) against magic help him here?

You know that putting negative adjectives like "measly," "weak," and "little" in front of statements doesn't actually help your point, right? If you knew what you were talking about it would make your points feel a little bit stronger, but anyone who knows about you is capable of seeing past those.

I know more about it than you do, because I am not the one adding fanon where i feel my characters should be stronger than the game provides 🙂

And they are "measly" or "weak"

Originally posted by Burning thought
yes i should probably remove the bit in my profile, its old information that I used before math was being so vigorously implemented. Bloodrain did this:

I dont know where Screams is but all of us got around the same figuires.

What material is BloodRain using there? I just mathed it using his measurement, and we both we both got the block being of similar volume (his measurement was 8.56 ft, mine was 8ft). However, my default material for stone objects still puts that block at 29 tons. Granite yeilds 30 tons. Sandstone would be 26 tons. Regardless, that also appears to be a different block.

He has his backside of rock, hardly accounts for "half" his size when its just outcroppings along his back.

Thats like saying that the undulating mounds on this crabs back:

Account for half its size, when in truth their a minor portion of growths on his shell.

It's not just outcroppings, though, as the entire backside of a Goron is rock.

Even moreso for Dangoro, whose back has more rock than other Gorons. But fine, let's try an experiment.
4/3*3.14*6^3=904.8
904.8*94.4=42.7
42.7*2/5=17.1

Playing your game and cutting it down to 2/5 of his size yields 17.1 tons. Now adding the armor brings him to 52.1 tons, still better that Raziel's 30ish tons.

Raziel with over 100 tonnes of force (Raziel moves two of said block) projected through the tip of a blade cannot even leave a mark on a healthy Kain.

That would be 60 tons, but as Raziel doesn't actually lift it, he can't be considered a 60 tonner. Simply moving the blocks is not enough. I'd still estimate around 40ish tons, though. And the difference between swords and claws is massive, especially when both Ganondorf and Link have weapons that would have extra effect on Kain.

You think measly light spirits whos best feat of banishment is on whom? Midna...a weak little imp is comparable to Kain who has vast resistance to sunlight AND magic? I loled, and no, Kains not evil.

Midna is weak to you? That's funny. The Light Spirits banished the Dark Interlopers and the magic that would become the Fused Shadows. They nearly killed Midna, who also has resistence to sunlight. When has Kain shown magic resistance?

But they dont come from the same, lightning comes from the sky and soul stealing comes from spiritual spells or the reavers devouring powers. How do you know that soldiers do not have resistance to twilight? just because youve seen a few in the twilight? for all you know they died and their spirits went there by default, were not at liberty to say twilight clouds put them there unless you have evidence?

No, lightning can come from magic, foo', that was the point. The soldiers do not have resistance to twilight. If they did they would not be spirits. The only thing they may or may not have resistance to is Dark Fog, but they still were not completely immersed. Now, what you just said goes against all evidence, as people don't go to the twilight realm when they die. This is what a dead soldier looks like:
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The guys between 0:14 and 0:35 that are pointing at stuff are the ghosts of soldiers. The ones in twilight are still alive.

You showed me them after already succumbing to spiritual form, not actually being within the twilight like the soldiers who resisted it earlier.

The soldiers did not resist twilight, as I've said.

Yes we did, we just did not see the caster but we see it being cast over the world and transforming people. Its part of the storyline, even I know that so dont try and pull the wool over my eyes. And we dont see any "cast", we see the spirit being beaten, and the twilight returning after its gone.

No, as you so often say, we did not see anyone casting it. Therefore you don't know when it was cast, so you can't know the casting time from that one scene. Luckily, we have another scene that shows Zant casting it, and it is fast.

Prove what? that it has rays of sunlight when all we see is a dimly lit globe like a low watt lightbulb? I think your video proves it for me. And you know, its not sunlight even if it "was like" sunlight, which its not because as I said, dimly lit.

It's not sunlight because it looks dim? Seriously? Yeah, and the fact that it acts like sunlight and breaks curses weak to sunlight don't mean anything to you, right? If that's the best you've got...

Argue "why" it should not do any of those things, dont just pretend saying it wont happe nis a refute please. So now you have to prove Ganons castle is tough, if thats your argument because from what I have seen, small tremurs have collapsed Ganons castle in OoT. Its completlely different because you know....1000 tons vs 50? I showed you information on a tank (I tihnk it showed it to Moo actually) that could not be built because 1000 tonnes would completly wreck the landscape.

Ganondorf brought down his own castle with magic, actually disintegrating peices of it, and it stayed together before just sinking into the ground. What small tremors? The castle shook because Ganondorf was tearing it apart. You're just making excuses. Why should 1000 tons be different from 50 if both should crack the floor? No, the tank was theorized to wreck roads and bridges, but would ford rivers with ease. You know what rivers have? Mud. The 1000 ton tank would have been fine on dirt and mud.

Twilights not just a magic source, if youve missed your own fiction then I am sorry, but its kinda important part of the plot that twilight was what the Twili actually lived in and what covered the realm. Its not just "magic source".

Twilight is everything. But if you missed the fact that twilight transformations are a magical effect, that's okay.

When does Kain say that? that he damns it for that reason? Because the last time I checked he chose not to be lost/killed for the sake of the world. This just means hes not into self-sacrifice...thats not evil. Also, despite his intensions, it could be argued Kains choice is the better one thus, he is more an agent of good. "banish evil" is ambigious, first its a no limit fallacy to claim they can banish all evil, because some beings in fiction are far beyond the whole of LoZ yet are evil, and furthermore evil itself is an ambigious term.

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"Once I embraced my powers, I realized that Vorador was correct. We are gods. Dark gods. And it is our duty to thin the herd. *evil laugh*"
There, Kain believes himself to be a dark god, actually admitting he is evil. I don't care about your no limits nonsense, as Kain is not beyond LoZ and the rest of that is irrelevant.

Can you show me evidence of this please, that it was not twilight powers before it was banished there.

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Prove them? ime talking about the video your using? what other proof do I need than that?

You're making conclusions that are not supported by anything in the video. Prove those claims.

Slow fall/hover, similair things and he does not do it for long. Either way hes a supernatural being who has both them powers, claiming "physics is not used" for a supernatural force/being is ridiculous especially when he has powers that would allow him to do that in this case.

Except he doesn't. Obvious toonforce is obvious.

Because gauntlets dont do that, or anything like it. Links standing on earth in one vid I have seen, in your vid hes standing on what looks like already weak poorly placed blocks of a castle, the sort of build that early castles in our world was made from without too much precision or strength. And even the strongest castles would never take 1k tonnes, your still reaching.

How do you know? It's a supernatural ability of the guantlets, so claiming physics is not used is ridiculous. What makes your think the castle's blocks are weak? Prove that, please. And don't apply our world to a castle that is floating above a lava pit. Ganondorf's construction includes the use of magic, as shown several times with all the traps and puzzles.

During the gameplay mechanics. 😆 your claiming pulling out a bow, pulling back its strength AFTER putting an arrow in it and releasing is quicker than pulling a trigger? "sigh", your getting desperate I see, Ganondorf can predict and see all this happening unless hes not got even human common sense then he wont be any use in this matchup (not that he is as it stands). I have used a bow as well (but not a gun) and its common sense that if someone was putting an arrow in their bow, and pulled back the string you would have far more time to dodge than if someone aimed a gun and pulled the trigger.

No, stop strawmanning my point. Twitching your finger to release a string is faster than pulling a trigger. Since Link doesn't fire as soon as he pulls back the string, Ganondorf wouldn't know exactly when he'll fire until his finger twitches and the arrow is already coming at him. In the video, Ganondorf dodges when the arrow is fired, not when the string is pulled back.

No hes not, since when? he casts lightning storm and because hes in control of it, its striking his enemies. Its the same thing with twilight powers in Ganon, he controls twilight, hell he can transform into it from what ive seen when he possesses. Same with inspire hate, it affects an area.

And what would happen if Kain opted to strike himself with lightning? It never hits Kain, but if it did he'd be hurt. Ganondorf has proven to be harmed by his own magic before, as well. Against the Fused Shadows:
YouTube video
0:12, that's Midna using the Fused Shadows against Ganondorf. When weakened, he was affected and removed from Zelda's body. Once he recovered, he destroyed Midna and crushed the Fused Shadows one handed.

Show me someone touching the completed fused shadows and being affected by them.

YouTube video

Transformation through twilight is just that, technically the soul is not even harmed. The body seems the most at risk to the peasants in the video, because their souls are left behind. Thats nothing alike to what Lok use. Your just showing me a gameplay scene where midna and wolf link are fighting a spiritual enemy. Him being able to attack ghosts is not the same as ripping out a living entities soul, dont remember Ganon getting canonically bitten by wolf link.

Soul is removed from body. That's all they need to resist. And did you watch it? "You got the Poe's soul!" Isn't enough for you?

The fused shadows? the completed helmet? or just a piece of the helmet before midna completed? be honest now... 🙂

The first three pieces. The ones that transformed the bosses.

Explain how the MS slowly reversing a transformation of Dorf/Zant magic and does not passively protect him (your evidence did not show it passive protection) against magic help him here?

Well, it reversed a curse on Link, and can do so whenever Link wants. That's a formidable defense from magic.

*salutes SMB's 25 years*

Aww my calc, good times. Ah Scenario, http://www.simetric.co.uk/si_materials.htm From common stone 2.5 to shale, slate, granite or limestones 2.6/7.
261cm^3= 17779581cm3
*2.5=48.996 tons
*2.6=50.956 tons
*2.7=52.916 tons

Too lazy to read all the posts but how does the armour weigh 32 tons?

Originally posted by The Scenario

Cant recall, you would have to ask him. I dont know what you did wrong to get 20 tons less than he did but considering 3 people got 50, and only your getting 30ish Ill be using my own, BR and unfortunatly Screampastes numbers.

Thats an outcropping, like a growth of rock on a gorons back. Certainly not "half" its size. Tbh I dont think any calculations on those outcroppings are possible, its unspecific, considering their growing on a living creature, they could be hollow.

So your ignoring all figuires that are not yours? lol, 100 tonnes, 50 tons, 2 blocks. Hes moving the weight with ease so its over 100 tonnes, way over multiplied by the PSI on the tip of a sharp edge. Swords and claws are the same in this case. LoZ characters cant harm Kain, and thats the strongest ones.

Oh I dont know, maybe when he stood unharmed in a regional sized area of magic power created by 3 of the stronger sorcerors in Lok early history. But it seems the strongest being they have harmed at all (midna) didnt even get harmed, and shes a weak imp....who afaik has no resistance to magic. Also wheres this sunlight Bs come from? weve established this power is not sunlight so all this is irrelevant anyway.

Its true Kain can call lightning using magic, that does not make the lightnings source magic, more so the "calling" is the magic. The ones who are dead ghosts and those in twilight look very similiar.

I wont repeat myself on the twilight thing, Ive seen the storyline of TP to know that Zant took ages to cover the world in twilight, ive seen no evidence he did anything to bring it back after the light spirit covered it.

Well no its not sunlight because its not the sun, its a "sol" which as midna says is "like" the sun in the fact it provides life to the twilight realm and illuminates it. Beyond that shes not specific on how many simulariities it has, all we can see its a dimly lit bulb.

"tearing apart", you can call it that but I call it "small tremurs". Why should 50 crack the floor? your making up BS comparisons that dont make sense. They said it can ford rivers, not that the mud would not be disturbed, your making things up again unless your proposing mud is stronger than concrete, cement and steel bridges? nah...

Magical effect? its just what happens when a being not of the twilight realm touches twilight, or should I say, when weak and resistanceless creatures touch it e.g. human peasants. Ofc its irrelevant, Zants too slow to cast it.

Originally posted by The Scenario

So you were wrong, thats not the reason he "damned the world" as you believe. Calling himself a "dark God" makes someone evil? I loled....ofc you dont care, you dont care about any evidence that topples your arguments which is most of the evidence so far, whether you care about it or not it wont go away. based on feats Kains resisted things beyond the LoZ realms power both physical and magical and his only major weakness he has evolved past (sunlight).

I watched that whole video, but all I found out was that Midna is a descendant of the intelopers and that twilight creatures from there cannot be within light. So it seems, Zant and his forces are going to have problems with "sunlight", or at least his forces, Zant seems resistant.

The video supports it, not sure what claims your talking about as I am just making claims based on the video.

Sure toonforce is obvious, throughout LoZ, LoK on the other hand has supernatural entities doing supernatural things similiar to their power set.

No its not, I know the gauntlets only affect strength. Because their cracked and as i said, combined together the same way as the older castles of our time, and dont argue that our castles are nothing alike to Ganondorfs, sure theres some force keeping it flying but its made of stone and the blocks are together in similiar ways.

Infact, both require a twitch of the finger, and your the one strawmanning, your trying to argue twitches of a finger when you dont have just react to that, you can react to the person themselves, predict their aim. Also the scene is not canon, pulling out the bow at that point is player choice.

😆 I thought you would show videos of Midna actually using the power of the fused shadows against him, your so predictable. But its not really that funny, you belive that him being harmed by that, then showing him crushing the harmless helmet without an owner is him with resistances? 🙄

Not sure if the soul is removed or the body is removed, its nothing to do with resisting a soul rip thats for certain.

A formidable and slow defence against reversing a twilight specific curse. So Links protected against slow magic projectiles AND twilight based transformations (given the MS some time to reverse the curse) lol, looks like Link is going to be ripped about by Kain and other LoK sorcerors, hes got no protection against any of their powers apart from maybe energy bolt.

Originally posted by BloodRain

Too lazy to read all the posts but how does the armour weigh 32 tons?

I would like to know this as well, Dangoro's armour is not that large, or thick imo. Theres no way its coming in at that weight.

Except you don't actually know anything, BT. 😐

I was talking about Zelda, not LoK. So no, the characters are not measly and weak.

Wow what an intelligent counter.......then again maybe not...

Stop trolling chief, its a waste of thread space.

Don't be butthurt, BT.

I wont sport...😄

So quit being butthurt then.

Took a rough look into it and I got 2 tons of iron. (If it is iron.(And technically 1.93 but no one likes the points.))

Real cute banter guys `,`

I know you're not talking about those boots.

I think hes talking about Dangoros armour.

Hah, think I wanna start that up again? Don't worry that's for the iron armour on Dangoro.

Originally posted by BloodRain
*salutes SMB's 25 years*

Aww my calc, good times. Ah Scenario, http://www.simetric.co.uk/si_materials.htm From common stone 2.5 to shale, slate, granite or limestones 2.6/7.
261cm^3= 17779581cm3
*2.5=48.996 tons
*2.6=50.956 tons
*2.7=52.916 tons

Too lazy to read all the posts but how does the armour weigh 32 tons?

Hmm. Your source lists stone as 155 lbs per cubic foot, whereas mine has average rock at 94 lbs per cubic foot. I see the discrepancy. My new calculation using this:
8.5ft^3=614.1
614.1*155=95189.4lbs

48 tons for common stone, yeah. But, using the same material for Dangoro yeilds:
4/3*pi*6^3=904.8
904.8*155=140240lbs

70 tons pure rock, 35 tons halved, 28 at 2/5ths.

As for the armor,

Now, based on the picture, Dangoro's armor plating is roughly 4 feet (48 inches) in length, I would say 2 (24 inches) feet in width, and perhaps 4 inches thick. Assuming that it's wrought iron, and with this as my source, a square foot of iron is 40lbs. Thus, 48*24*4=4608in, or 384 cubic feet for each plate. 384*40=15360lbs, or 7 tons per plate of armor. I can count roughly 5 plates on Dangoro, thus 7*5=35 tons just for Dangoro's armor.

Picture used:

Looking back, I accidentally used square feet where I should have used cubic feet. I used 40 when I should have used 480 or 490. Unfortunately, using cubic feet would make each of Dangoro's plates 82 tons each, for 596 tons for the armor alone. There's something wrong there. Not even I would claim this. Maybe I got the meaurements wrong on the plates. But, they're more than half of Link's height, and more than his shoulder width.

*head explodes*

Scenario. Jesus christ man.